Can sinning can be overcome?

OntheDL said:

If your salvation had been sealed, you would have kind and loving words for people whom you disagree with.

Your posts speak volumns of your spiritual condition.

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There is nothing 'unloving' about challenging theology. That is allowed on a debate forum. You are free to trash mine as much as you like. Wait, you and your ilk already have. I believe 'new theology', 'easy believism' and 'sloppy agape' fit the bill?

OntheDL said:

Hi Garrick,

I heard this illustration of perfection that I had shared here...

When we look at the growth of a tree, maybe it had just newly budded off the ground, or maybe it's a young aspiring tree. They are perfect even if they do not bare any fruits. Because they are doing what they are supposed to do. A tree is always growing. But when it stops growing, it starts dying.

That's christian perfection. Perfect obedience and perfect dependence on God.

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Was it you that posted something that Ellen White said on character transformation a while back? It was something along the lines of Christ being a jeweler, forever refining, cutting, trimming away at the jagged edges, until that day when He is finished, and He sees a perfect reflection of Himself in its beauty. That has really stuck in my mind.

We will never know we are perfect: we have arrived. Because our eyes should be fixed on Christ.

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Amen.


Jon

Jon0388g said:

Was it you that posted something that Ellen White said on character transformation a while back? It was something along the lines of Christ being a jeweler, forever refining, cutting, trimming away at the jagged edges, until that day when He is finished, and He sees a perfect reflection of Himself in its beauty. That has really stuck in my mind.

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I'd like to take credit for that. But I don't remember I wrote something like that.

The problems I have with the whole debate on perfection are:

1. People assume that perfection is something you can observe the presence or lack of yourself, or in another person,

2. People assume that God has the same criteria on perfection as they do.

3. People assume that God's criteria of perfection is the same for every person. For example, Jesus told the rich, young ruler to sell all his possessions and give all to the poor. So. ya wanna do that?

4. People assume that perfection cannot be achieved in this life, because they look at the circumstances they are in in their present life, and have no idea how different their lives will be in the very last days of earth's history. Times and situations can bring out the best and the worst in people. For example, if you said "no way," to selling all your possessions and giving to the poor, how do you know that circumstances may change in your life so that you will suddenly be motivated to do just that, and know that you have nothing to lose?

5. As I mentioned earlier, my biggest problem with the debate on perfection is that people focus on miniscule things, which makes my jaded nature tend to wonder what whoppers they are covering up!

I personally believe (walking by faith, not by sight) that perfection is possible in this life, and that it has happened to some Christians, and will happen in a big way just before Jesus comes, to God's glory. But I refuse to debate it with anyone simply because neither I nor you are in a position to define what perfection exactly is- I only believe it happens because the Bible says it does. How can imperfect beings define perfection?

Telaquapacky said:

A pastor friend of mine tells how he walked into Sabbath School in one of the more loopy churches he pastored, and a member was standing behind the podium, tearfully testifying that he had gained victory over margarine.

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So this is what it has come to then.

1 John 5:17 "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

^ Can someone clarify this for me? Is this exclusive to "iniquity vs. unknowingly sinning"?

And also, what is the difference of being deceived and having unknowingly sinned (out of ignorance)?



Thanks in advance!

Sophia7 said:

And this is the crux of the debate: fallen-nature advocates primarily emphasize Jesus' example in order to argue that we can overcome sin in the flesh because Jesus did. The problem with this is that human flesh can't overcome sin, and Jesus wasn't exactly like us. He was both God and man. His temptations were not exactly like ours. How many of us would be tempted to turn stones into bread or to throw ourselves off the pinnacle of the temple? Jesus' temptations were about using His divine power, which we obviously don't have, to avoid the suffering from which His humanity shrank but which He had to endure in carrying out His mission of salvation.

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Where in the scriptures do you find that Jesus was not like us? Wasn't He a Man just like us; didn't He have to eat, sleep, pray and ask for wisdom just like we do? Do you think that Jesus was pretending to be Man while all along He waltzed through life without having to face anything at all because the victory was already guaranteed?

Hebrews 4:15–16 (NASB95)
15 "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

How could the Lord be tempted to sin if there was no possibility for Him to make the wrong choice? What kind of example can He be to us when there was something that He did not experience?

Jesus, Son of fallen Mary and Son of God. Born without sin, but inherited the nature of His mother so that by walking in perfect obedience, He would defeat the devil and assume the place of humanity as a covenant representative. Perfect Man proved that flesh under full submission to the will of God is able to deflect the attacks of the enemy. Jesus used the armor of God throughout His life (2Cor. 10:11-17).
Jesus was born without sin, but He had to maintain His sinlessness throughout His life in order to qualify to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world (Jn 1:29).

Proof:
Romans 8:3 (CJB)
3 "For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature."

William Lefranc said:

Where in the scriptures do you find that Jesus was not like us? Wasn't He a Man just like us; didn't He have to eat, sleep, pray and ask for wisdom just like we do? Do you think that Jesus was pretending to be Man while all along He waltzed through life without having to face anything at all because the victory was already guaranteed?

Hebrews 4:15–16 (NASB95)
15 "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

How could the Lord be tempted to sin if there was no possibility for Him to make the wrong choice? What kind of example can He be to us when there was something that He did not experience?

Jesus, Son of fallen Mary and Son of God. Born without sin, but inherited the nature of His mother so that by walking in perfect obedience, He would defeat the devil and assume the place of humanity as a covenant representative. Perfect Man proved that flesh under full submission to the will of God is able to deflect the attacks of the enemy. Jesus used the armor of God throughout His life (2Cor. 10:11-17).
Jesus was born without sin, but He had to maintain His sinlessness throughout His life in order to qualify to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world (Jn 1:29).

Proof:
Romans 8:3 (CJB)
3 "For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature."

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This was a very old post. As I said previously, Jesus was both divine and human. We are not divine, and we are not sinless, and thus He did have an advantage over us. That’s why He was able to overcome temptation and save us from our sins.

“If I am drowning in a rapid river, a man who still has one foot on the bank may give me a hand which saves my life. Ought I to shout back (between my gasps) ‘No, it’s not fair! You have an advantage! You’re keeping one foot on the bank’? That advantage—call it ‘unfair’ if you like—is the only reason why he can be of any use to me. To what will you look for help if you will not look to that which is stronger than yourself?” (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity).

Sophia7 said:

This was a very old post. As I said previously, Jesus was both divine and human. We are not divine, and we are not sinless, and thus He did have an advantage over us. That’s why He was able to overcome temptation and save us from our sins.

“If I am drowning in a rapid river, a man who still has one foot on the bank may give me a hand which saves my life. Ought I to shout back (between my gasps) ‘No, it’s not fair! You have an advantage! You’re keeping one foot on the bank’? That advantage—call it ‘unfair’ if you like—is the only reason why he can be of any use to me. To what will you look for help if you will not look to that which is stronger than yourself?” (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity).

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I would disagree with your statement of Jesus having an advantage over us. He lived His life by faith in His Father, and reliance upon the Holy Spirit. That is exactly the same way we are to live our lives. Paul spoke to this in Galatians 5. He said if we live by the Spirit that the fruit of the Spirit will be in our lives, and as a result of that fruit we will break no law.

Galatians 5: 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

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Paul is telling us we can live in harmony with God's law just like Jesus did, and through the very same influence and power.

John tells us something very similar but he states it differently.

1John 3: 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

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As the Bible does not lie to us we know John's statement is true. Then why do we still sin? Because we do not always abide in Jesus. We go our own way instead. It's the abiding we need to work on for when we do that the fruit of the Spirit is in our lives and we will violate no law. The devil cannot force us to sin, we have to choose to do that, for God is much more powerful than the devil.

Jeremiah gave us the promise of God's law being written in our hearts and Paul repeated it in his writings.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:*n7
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

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Ezekiel gives us a very similar promise.

Ezekiel 36:25 ¶Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

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The promises are ours if we will only claim them and believe that God will do what He says He will do. Do you trust Him? If you do, believe His promises and He will keep His word with you. God has told us that His word will not return unto Him void. It will accomplish that which He sets out to do.

Remember the announcement of Jesus' birth? The angel said that He will save His people from their sins. The angel did not say Jesus would save us in our sins, but from them.

Sophia7 said:

This was a very old post. As I said previously, Jesus was both divine and human. We are not divine, and we are not sinless, and thus He did have an advantage over us. That’s why He was able to overcome temptation and save us from our sins.
.

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While it is true that He was born with a sinless nature - no "bent toward rebellion" and that his 'nature recoiled against rebellion" - he also had temptation far greater than we experience.

For example while being tortured He had the power "by a single thought" to lessen the force, to cause minds to change direction, to cause minds to sympathize with Him, to do anyone of a zillion other things to lessen the pain of the ordeal and yet He did not do it.