Can Salvation be lost?

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life means having an immortal spiritual body that cannot suffer physical death.

Yet, all believers are given eternal life when they believe on Him, per John 5:24, because the verse SAYS those believing HAVE (AS IN POSSESS) eternal life.

And, guess what! All believers die physically. So your comment is quite wrong.

Eternal life means having God's very life and therefore, AFTER physical death, will be "at home with the Lord".

It's only given at the resurrection/rapture.

No, you are thinking about the glorified body. The gift of eternal life is what qualifies the believer to live with God.

Col 1:12 - and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.

As a mortal, we are still susceptible to physical death, unless the rapture occurs tomorrow to take us away. But until then, I'm afraid that 'eternal life' remains a promise.

And you should well be afraid. Your views do not line up with Scripture. Be very afraid.

But, since you believe that eternal life is just a promise, please show me in John 5:24 where Jesus said anything about a promise. I would appreciate that very much.

And, also, show me any mention of a promise in John 3:15,16 while you are at it.

Thanks.

 

[Trivalee]

Yet, all believers are given eternal life when they believe on Him, per John 5:24, because the verse SAYS those believing HAVE (AS IN POSSESS) eternal life.

And, guess what! All believers die physically. So your comment is quite wrong.

Eternal life means having God's very life and therefore, AFTER physical death, will be "at home with the Lord".

Eternal life means endless life and we only possess that after the resurrection/rapture. You are simply running with an erroneous view of 'eternal life' that is not supported in scripture.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Like others who share your false interpretation of John 5:24, they inexplicably miss the proviso "but is passed from DEATH unto LIFE (eternal life)". In plain language - a mortal must pass through death (save those lucky to be alive at the time of the rapture) to enjoy eternal life!

 

[Trivalee]

No, you are thinking about the glorified body. The gift of eternal life is what qualifies the believer to live with God.

Col 1:12 - and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.

Eternal life is synonymous with (a) a glorified or spiritual body which we do not have as mortals (b) immortality. Both gifts are only given at resurrection/rapture, but before this time, eternity remains a "promise" from our God that cannot lie.

 

[Trivalee]

And you should well be afraid. Your views do not line up with Scripture. Be very afraid.

But, since you believe that eternal life is just a promise, please show me in John 5:24 where Jesus said anything about a promise. I would appreciate that very much.

And, also, show me any mention of a promise in John 3:15,16 while you are at it.

Thanks.

I have already answered your question in John 5:24.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life means endless life and we only possess that after the resurrection/rapture.

Then this is an argument AGAINST the very words of Jesus in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life (present tense)and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Please notice the tenses here. Greek present can be understood as "right now" or "currently". So, WHEN a person believes, at that MOMENT, they POSSESS eternal life.

You are simply running with an erroneous view of 'eternal life' that is not supported in scripture.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

So then, you don't believe the verse you just quoted??? Why? The tenses refute your claims.

Like others who share your false interpretation of John 5:24, they inexplicably miss the proviso "but is passed from DEATH unto LIFE (eternal life)".

Check the verb tense for "passed". It is a perfect indicative. That means an action in the past (when they believed) with the results continuing forward.

So your verse doesn't help you.

In plain language - a mortal must pass through death (save those lucky to be alive at the time of the rapture) to enjoy eternal life!

This is a very wrong interpretation.

Jesus was addressing all 3 of our tenses: past present and future regarding salvation.

1. past tense - "but is passed from death to life" iow, that has ALREADY occurred for those when they believe
2. present tense - "those hearing and believing" HAVE eternal life. A present possession
3. future tense - "shall not come into condemnation" This is eternal security.

You are free to refute me with actual evidence from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
No, you are thinking about the glorified body. The gift of eternal life is what qualifies the believer to live with God.

Col 1:12 - and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.

Eternal life is synonymous with (a) a glorified or spiritual body which we do not have as mortals (b) immortality. Both gifts are only given at resurrection/rapture, but before this time, eternity remains a "promise" from our God that cannot lie.

I'm not going to argue with you, as I have ALREADY PROVEN from John 5:24 that your claims are incorrect.

Your argument is with God. I'll let Him handle this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

eternity remains a "promise" from our God that cannot lie.

Nope. John 5:24 has NO "promise" anywhere in the verse. Maybe you can help me out and point out where you found a "promise of" in John 5:24.

I'll wait.

But, in the meantime, Jesus said in plain and clear words, those believing POSSESS eternal life. I believe that.

You may argue with God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
And you should well be afraid. Your views do not line up with Scripture. Be very afraid.

But, since you believe that eternal life is just a promise, please show me in John 5:24 where Jesus said anything about a promise. I would appreciate that very much.

And, also, show me any mention of a promise in John 3:15,16 while you are at it.

Thanks.

I have already answered your question in John 5:24.

Your answer FAILED to show me any mention of a "promise" in either verse.

So please don't call your response an answer. There was NO answer. I asked for where you see "promise" in either verse. And you DIDN'T answer that question.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Pretty clear...

Dead people don't "change there mind and determine not to "continue in unbelief" while dead. Paul is talking about real people not those in graves.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

The idea that your insert of this being "a physically dead person" -- who just changed their mind then was brought back to life -- is a huge bend-and-wrench for that text.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
"cut off" meant to die physically. Not lose salvation. .

Not true in Rom 11 - in Gal 5:4 "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" does not mean "put in a grave" and in Rom 11 those Jews and gentiles grafted into the same vine are not "put in the grave" as a form of "cutting them off.

Paul says "IF they do not continue in unbelief" your suggestion is that they are in the grave and still in unbelief and yet at a certain point in the grave they choose not to continue in unbelief - and then what??? -- so are brought back out of the grave again???

I find that idea a bit extreme.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not true in Rom 11

In Rom 11, to be "cut off" refers to loss of blessings.

- in Gal 5:5 "severed from Christ" does not mean "put in a grave"

Right. It means "loss of fellowship".

and in Rom 11 those Jews and gentiles grafted into the same vine are not "put in the grave" as a form of "cutting them off.

My point about about "cut off" from the OT would have a strong impact on the Jews. They knew how serious it was to be "cut off". They also would know it could mean to be removed from service, since that is what their chosen status was about. And they took it seriously.

Paul says "IF they do not continue in unbelief" your suggestion is that they are in the grave and still in unbelief and yet at a certain point in the grave they choose not to continue in unbelief - and then what??? -- so are brought back out of the grave again???

This would obviously be silly, and NO, I never suggested that. And I am clarifying here what all "cut off" entails.

When people aren't being obedient, God WILL "cut them off" from blessings and service.

I find that idea a bit extreme.

Yes, it sure would be if that was my point.

 

[BobRyan]

In Rom 11, to be "cut off" refers to loss of blessings.


Right. It means "loss of fellowship".


My point about about "cut off" from the OT would have a strong impact on the Jews. They knew how serious it was to be "cut off". They also would know it could mean to be removed from service, since that is what their chosen status was about. And they took it seriously.


This would obviously be silly, and NO, I never suggested that. And I am clarifying here what all "cut off" entails.

When people aren't being obedient, God WILL "cut them off" from blessings and service.


Yes, it sure would be if that was my point.

 

[BobRyan]

There are a number of texts that speak to the warning of loss of forgiveness, being severed from Christ, falling from grace... branches in Christ that are removed.

1. Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
2. Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "salvation revoked" and die in sins
3. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
4. Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
5. Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
6. 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
7. Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
8. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

Rom 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Pretty clear

In Rom 11, to be "cut off" refers to loss of blessings....
When people aren't being obedient, God WILL "cut them off" from blessings

WHEN a person believes, they HAVE eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, any verse that one may think teaches loss of salvation, is simply misunderstood.

Thank you for sharing that opinion it is a perfect contrast between our view and accepting the text as it reads... or not.



=====================================
INSIDE the parable:
Matt 18

32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him.​

OUTSIDE the parable:

35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”​

Some are in essence turning vs 35 into "so shall my Father NOT do to each one of you - because after all that was merely a parable" -- and then claiming that is "the same" thing as what the text says?.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are a number of texts that speak to the warning of loss of forgiveness, being severed from Christ, falling from grace... branches in Christ that are removed.

Agreed. What I do not agree with is that these phrases refer to loss of salvation.

- Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
-Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "salvation revoked" and die in sins
- John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
- Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
- Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
- 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
- Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
- Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

None of these verse can refer to loss of salvation.

I say this on the authority of what Jesus Himself taught very clearly.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Here, Jesus says in clear words that those who believe POSSESS (have) eternal life. This means they possess eternal life WHEN they believe. The very MOMENT they believe.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, from 5:24, we know who Jesus gives etenal life to: believers.

And then Jesus continues, those He gives eternal life to SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, from the MOMENT of faith in Christ, the recipient of eternal life shall never perish.

This is eternal security as clearly and as briefly as possible.

WHEN a person believes, they HAVE eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, any verse that one may think teaches loss of salvation, is simply misunderstood.

Rom 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Pretty clear

No. It's not. You HAVE TO assume/presume/etc that to be "cut off" means from salvation. But it doesn't say that. And given John 5:24 and 10:28 NO one given eternal life, which is given WHEN they believe, CAN or WILL perish.

So this passage CANNOT be teaching loss of salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

WHEN a person believes, they HAVE eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, any verse that one may think teaches loss of salvation, is simply misunderstood.

Which deletes the entire idea of "sola scriptura testing of doctrine" via the extreme untested inference poured into the first sentence above"

Every text that refutes the OSAS claims "certainly must be spun some other way" no matter how clear and direct the text is.

That is Good bye to sola-scriptura testing. What flawed teaching could not survive using that "good bye" method???

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
WHEN a person believes, they HAVE eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, any verse that one may think teaches loss of salvation, is simply misunderstood.

Which deletes the entire idea of "sola scriptura testing of doctrine" via the extreme untested inference poured into the first sentence above"

My first sentence above was PROVED by going through the 2 verses thoroughly.

Since you disagree with my sentence, please show me where my error is regarding the 2 verses. Thank you.

Every text that refutes the OSAS claims "certainly must be spun some other way" no matter how clear and direct the text is.

OK, it is you who do not understand. There is a huge misunderstanding of the texts that you claim "refutes OSAS claims". The ONLY WAY they could refute OSAS is by using very clear words that leave NO DOUBT about it.

But I have NEVER seen a verse that specifically says that salvation can be lost. So ALL of the verses used to "refute" OSAS are being misunderstood.

I say that on the very basis that John 5:24 and John 10:28 very clearly shows that those given eternal life CANNOT perish.

No verse can make either of these 2 verses mean something OTHER than what they say.

That is Good bye to sola-scriptura testing. What flawed teaching could not survive using that "good bye" method???

Flawed teaching is claiming that salvation can be lost since the 2 verses make it absolutely clear that recipients of eternal life cannot perish.

However, since you don't believe that, could you at least explain to me what John 5:24 and 10:28 actually do teach?

I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.

 

[GDL]

Then this is an argument AGAINST the very words of Jesus in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life (present tense)and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Please notice the tenses here. Greek present can be understood as "right now" or "currently". So, WHEN a person believes, at that MOMENT, they POSSESS eternal life.

Check the verb tense for "passed". It is a perfect indicative. That means an action in the past (when they believed) with the results continuing forward.

Jesus was addressing all 3 of our tenses: past present and future regarding salvation.

1. past tense - "but is passed from death to life" iow, that has ALREADY occurred for those when they believe
2. present tense - "those hearing and believing" HAVE eternal life. A present possession
3. future tense - "shall not come into condemnation" This is eternal security.

You are free to refute me with actual evidence from Scripture.

A few questions:

1. "hearing & believing" present tense seems to be translating in #2 above in the continuous present tense. Is this what you're saying: that we must continue hearing & believing? Earlier you said believes tells us "at that moment."
   1. Would the translation of hearing and believing affect how the present tense of "has eternal life" is interpreted?
2. In the translation supplied, the perfect tense is translated as "has passed." In #1 above, it's translated as "is passed." Why the difference and why do you think it's best to translate the perfect tense as "is passed"? Does the perfect tense tell us the state is lasting, and is this what you mean by "results continuing forward"?
3. "shall not come" does sound like a future tense, but the verb is present tense. Why is it valid to translate this present tense as a future event? Can it be translated otherwise, and if so, could it be telling us something different?

Thanks.

BTW, I for one also thank you for presenting your argument at this level of scrutiny.

 

[BobRyan]

But I have NEVER seen a verse that specifically says that salvation can be lost. So ALL of the verses used to "refute" OSAS are being misunderstood.

Isn't that a circular argument?

example:

"I have never seen a text that disproves my POV so anytime a text appears to disprove my POV - then it must be misunderstood".​

I say that pouring extreme "inference" into John 5:24 and John 10:28 leads one to ignore every text that would expose that extreme inference.

No verse can make either of these 2 verses mean something OTHER than what they say. But neither can extreme inference injected into those texts be considered part of the text. hence .. Exegesis.

Given "fallen from Grace" and "severed from Christ" - are so obvious in Gal 5:4.

And given that "forgiveness revoked" is so clearly taught in Matt 18...

And given that "those who stand only by faith" in Rom 11 "are to fear..for if He did not spare them neither will he spare you ... to you God's goodness If you continue.. otherwise you to will be cut off" --

Extreme inference cannot be used in John 5:24 and 10:28

However, since you don't believe that, could you at least explain to me what John 5:24 and 10:28 actually do teach?

I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Cannot be pressed to the extreme of also saying "he who no longer hears my word and no longer believes in Me still has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life"

Rather the "IF you continue" and "those who persevere" warnings still apply.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand

Cannot be pressed to the extreme of also saying "he who used to follow Me - but now no longer chooses to do so - is my sheep anyway"

the promise that no one is stronger than God so as to forcibly steal what belongs to God is not the same as "I will not allow you a choice - ". A strong house able to withstand any intrusion attempt - still permits family members to come and go as they wish.

 

[lsume]

There are differing views on salvation.

Some Christians believe that once saved, one cannot lose salvation. IOW, they believe that eternal life is guaranteed. On the flip side, there are those that believe that even though we are saved, we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life.

What is your position on this topic? Kindly support your case with relevant scriptures.

Romans 8:1 is security as long as you pursue the Spirit. The seal that must occur is eternal. However, many think they have received the latter incorrectly. When that seal happens, you will have no doubts.