Can Salvation be lost?

HIM · Oct 21, 2021

Hammster said:
What it doesn’t say is that if you sin willfully after being saved. In the context of Hebrews, talking to folks who were still looking at the old covenant, he’s saying that their old sacrificial system is no longer valid. They can’t pick one or the other.

Verses 19-25 is an exhortation that begins with the writer calling out to brethren which means the writer considers the people he is writing to to be of the faith. He then continues the exhortation in verse 20, and 22 in the first person plural with the word US in connection to the way being consecrated and their hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and bodies washed with pure water. If your hearts are sprinkled and our bodies washed we are saved.
Then again the writer in verse 23 councils in the 1st person plural that they, including himself should hold fast their profession of faith without wavering because of God's faithfulness. Then continuing in the first person plural He says in verses 24 and 25 that they, including himself should provoke unto love and good works as they see the day approaching.
These people the writer considers brothers in the consecrated way having their hearts sprinkled from and evil conscience and their bodies washed. They are to profess this faith without wavering. They are to provoke unto love and good works and our counseled not to forsake the assembling together as some do because they see the Day approaching. These people are likeminded believers with writer. They are saved.

Then Continuing In Verse 26 with the word FOR. Which means what is about to be said is the reason for what was previously stated. The writer continues in the 1st person plural continuing to include himself in the admonition. How do we know? He uses the word we. Couple that with Verse 29 when he says that the sinning willfully individual was sanctified.

TRY actually addressing the points of this post rather then just posting a opinion. PROVE what is being stated here is wrong point by point and we will recant. What is posted in this post are all objective facts. As is the fact that if we are sinning willfully, we whom are sanctified, having the way consecrated before us. Our bodies washed with pure water and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience. We the brethren, if we are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Only a certain fearful looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversary, those whom are sinning willfully.

And it would fail us not to mention after the admonition in verse 26-30 the writer starts in verse 32 with the word but and then begins to exhort those to whom he is speaking. Calling them illuminated.

You can't be sanctified, made holy and not be saved. Because you are not sanctified, made holy unless you have been saved.

Incidentally these sanctified illuminated individuals are counseled to not cast away their confidence in verse 35 and within the same thought they are told that they are in need of patience, cheerful endurance. That after they done the will of God they MIGHT receive the promise. Which implies they MIGHT not receive the promise if they do not cheerfully endure.

TRY actually addressing the points of this post rather then just posting a opinion. PROVE what is being stated here is wrong point by point and we will recant. What is posted in this post are all objective facts. As is the fact that if we are sinning willfully, we whom are sanctified, having the way consecrated before us. Our bodies washed with pure water and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience. We the brethren, if we are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Only a certain fearful looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversary, those whom are sinning willfully.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hammster · Oct 21, 2021

HIM said:
Verses 19-25 is an exhortation that begins with the writer calling out to brethren which means the writer considers the people he is writing to to be of the faith.

Not necessarily. If he’s a Jew writing to Jews, they’d be his brethren.

For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
— Romans 9:3

HIM · Oct 21, 2021

Hammster said:
Not necessarily. If he’s a Jew writing to Jews, they’d be his brethren.

Maybe so but these brethren were Sanctified, having their heart sprinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies wash by the pure water. And these brethren were with the writer through the writer were admonished not To be sinning willfully after they received the knowledge of this truth.

Trivalee · Oct 21, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
Depends on your definition of being "saved." For relevance to those of us still living, I call it being in a state of grace, if you die not in that state you will be damned and if you die in that state you will be eternally saved. It is possible to go into a state of grace (obviously) but one can lose it again, as in the verses Galatians 1:6, Ezekiel 18:24, and so on. Gifts can be rejected.

I was raised studying the KJV Bible, so forgive me for using the word "saved" to describe our state after becoming born-again. In KJV, 'saved' is used interchangeably to denote coming to faith/born-again/salvation (Rom 10:9) and eternal redemption/immortality; vide Matt 24:13.

And I agree with you!

Trivalee · Oct 21, 2021

lsume said:
The truth is that once Christ carries you through the rebirth, you can’t lose your salvation. However, if someone who is born again and starts to live a lawless life, the punishment is severe.

Would please elaborate or clarify the following for me?

The difference between "rebirth" and "born again"?
And explain why after rebirth, it is impossible to lose salvation?
Also, explain what "severe punishment" means for a born-again that chose a lawless lifestyle?

Trivalee · Oct 21, 2021

bling said:
First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

Starting with the verses you gave concerning “gift”.

Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.

The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone stile it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Justification is a gift.

6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We now own eternal life in heaven, but we are not in heaven yet, so it is like a birthright to go to heaven is what we own.

11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This takes some really heavy study of the context found in Ro. chps. 9, 10 and 11, but briefly:

Paul in Ro. 11:25… Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Paul is talking about the Israelites, that were under the promise given Abraham, but just got through saying: Ro. 11:4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Paul is seems to be saying that all Jews “they are enemies” (yet the elect in that they are Jews by birth), have been given the gift of being God’s select people, but in verse 5 Paul talks about only a remnant being saved?

Paul has also been talking about some that were branches being cut off (this would mean OSAS will not work).

This is out of Ro. 11:

13 I am talking to you Gentiles…. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Paul is not talking to nonbelieving Gentile, since they are not being addressed and would not be reading his letter, but this section is to gentile Christians, whom Paul warns can be “cut off” and said “…provided that you continue in his kindness”.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

Can Christians quench the Holy Spirit?

If you through the Spirit out do you also throughout your seal of eternal life?

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

OK, if the Spirit is no longer with you, you can know you will not receive redemption at the time of Judgement?

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This “death” here seems to be physical death since Jesus goes on to say: 28… for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.

People that have done good will rise to life, but this is the judgment day so there is not changing after (lose of salvation) the person is dead.

10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I fully agree “no one” can take you from God and God will not forsake you, but that does not mean God will not allow you to walk away; God is not a kidnapper nor will God hold you against your own will.

If a former Christian will not go when Jesus calls he is no longer on of Christ’s sheep.

Do you believe God would hold a person against their will?

If God changes the will of the person is that new will really their will or is it God’s will in them?

The question is: can a sheep of the Shepherd intentionally go off (like the prodigal son did) and not be forced to return to the flock (like in the prodigal son story)?

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober from drunkenness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

This is all about existing Christian, but it does not say you cannot turn to the darkness and in fact Paul warns them and tells them what the “need” to do; “we need to be sober” if it were not possible for them to get drunk Paul should have said “you are sober”.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

“How people are saved” is not addressing the fact after you are saved you can give up your eternal life in heaven.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

I appreciate your diligence and scholarship given your detailed exegesis. You have posited that once saved, it is impossible to lose it. I am glad you made references to Paul's argument in Rom 11 concerning the fate of his people, Israel, in comparison to the Gentiles.

Given your extensive citations, I can match you with an equal list of scriptures in rebuttal, but that would be superfluous. Instead, I will rely on just one unambiguous passage to show that salvation, being saved or born-again - whichever phrase that works, can be lost if one fails to abide in Christ to the end.

Please consider the following carefully.

Paul explained that Israel (some, not all) was broken off as branches from the olive tree(from Christ) because of unbelief. Rom 11:20
Do you agree that an unbeliever, Jew or Gentile will not be grafted into the olive tree, ie Christ?
If you agree, then we both concede that the Gentiles grafted in are those that believe. That is, the saved born-again believers according to Rom 11:17.
On this premise, kindly share your thoughts on the boldened part of the citation below:
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If a saved, born-again believer is CUT OFF from Christ for failing to remain in Christ, what does it mean?

I've read some of the illogical reasons given in support of the "once saved, forever saved" theory which includes among others, that a true born-again cannot fall away from Christ. But this view contradicts what the Bible teaches.

Look at it this way, if there is zero possibility of a truly saved believer falling away then the numerous exhortations to persevere and abide in Christ to the end would have been redundant and unnecessary, do you not agree?

Trivalee · Oct 21, 2021

friend of said:
For myself, it really comes down to this. Is God, in His omniscience, going to change His mind about someone He sends the Holy Ghost to be with? It says the comforter will abide with us forever. John 14:16. For God to change His mind once He would cease to be immutable and unchanging. We know He is unchanging. We know He will not leave nor forsake. When someone is born, how can they be unborn? In reference to being born again? He has the power to keep us and bring us through all tribulations. So will He not exercise this power when it comes to the security of His spiritual children? I believe He will. If we could lose our salvation then we probably would. If we could lose our salvation then it wouldn't be Eternal it would only be temporary. I trust that my heavenly Father will keep me. For Jesus Christ's sake, if nothing else.

God is immutable, FACT.
Man is fickle, mutable, inconstant. FACT.

There is no guarantee that a saved believer may not for reasons known to him, forsake Christ and return to the world. And when he does, God will not stop him. FACT!

Trivalee · Oct 21, 2021

prophecy_uk said:
Trivalee: "If any believer claims that they have no sin since becoming born-again, (being a new creature old things/sin have passed away and all things have become new), I will clap for him. For me, despite being born-again I still struggle with sin due to the unremitting conflict between my spirit-man and my flesh (Gal 5:17; Rom 7:15-18)"

Where is the struggle in being strengthened to do all things by Christs power ( of you can believe)..

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Ecclesiastes 7:19 Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten mighty men which are in the city.

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Colossians 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

The light is what we approach first ( if Jesus calls us to His light) and then the blood of Chriust cleans us of all sin, we confess our sins and we believe in Christ being just to forgive our sins, and to clean us of all unrighteousness ( do you see these words as confirming that Christ is the minister of sin?)...

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We receive propitiation through faith in the blood of Christ, declaring His righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST ( this is to confess your sins, your past sins) that Christ is just and the justifier of those who believe in Jesus ( remember we receive strength and might if we can believe to now do ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST) and this is the law of FAITH...

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Now the blood of Christ is to purge your evil consciences, knowing the blood of Christ is without spot, from the dead works ( works of sin) o serve the living God in righteousness ( not serving in sin) but be washed in PURE water in a TRUE HEART, as Christ is not the minister of sin doctrines and beliefs, we are dead to the law ( of sin and death) so we can live unto God fulfilling the righteousness of Christ ( no longer the sin and lies of the devil any longer thanks)..

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

proph_uk said:

Trivalee: "If any believer claims that they have no sin since becoming born-again, (being a new creature old things/sin have passed away and all things have become new), I will clap for him. For me, despite being born-again I still struggle with sin due to the unremitting conflict between my spirit-man and my flesh (Gal 5:17; Rom 7:15-18)"

Where is the struggle in being strengthened to do all things by Christs power ( of you can believe)..

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Ecclesiastes 7:19 Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten mighty men which are in the city.

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Colossians 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the passages about being strengthened in Christ.
With all these strengthening, are you living a sinless perfect life?
If you say you are, I clap for you...

bling · Oct 21, 2021

Trivalee said:
I appreciate your diligence and scholarship given your detailed exegesis. You have posited that once saved, it is impossible to lose it. I am glad you made references to Paul's argument in Rom 11 concerning the fate of his people, Israel, in comparison to the Gentiles.

Given your extensive citations, I can match you with an equal list of scriptures in rebuttal, but that would be superfluous. Instead, I will rely on just one unambiguous passage to show that salvation, being saved or born-again - whichever phrase that works, can be lost if one fails to abide in Christ to the end.

Please consider the following carefully.

Paul explained that Israel (some, not all) was broken off as branches from the olive tree(from Christ) because of unbelief. Rom 11:20

Do you agree that an unbeliever, Jew or Gentile will not be grafted into the olive tree, ie Christ?

If you agree, then we both concede that the Gentiles grafted in are those that believe. That is, the saved born-again believers according to Rom 11:17.

On this premise, kindly share your thoughts on the boldened part of the citation below:

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If a saved, born-again believer is CUT OFF from Christ for failing to remain in Christ, what does it mean?

I've read some of the illogical reasons given in support of the "once saved, forever saved" theory which includes among others, that a true born-again cannot fall away from Christ. But this view contradicts what the Bible teaches.

Look at it this way, if there is zero possibility of a truly saved believer falling away then the numerous exhortations to persevere and abide in Christ to the end would have been redundant and unnecessary, do you not agree?

I am sorry but I do not believe in OSAS and in my long post I said things like: Paul has also been talking about some that were branches being cut off (this would mean OSAS will not work)

Trivalee · Oct 21, 2021

bling said:
I am sorry but I do not believe in OSAS and in my long post I said things like: Paul has also been talking about some that were branches being cut off (this would mean OSAS will not work)

You came across as one that diligently studies the holy book and I was hoping for an objective discourse. Rather disappointed that you brusquely dismissed a valid and understandably challenging point; perhaps, it undermines your whole doctrine.

The accusation of OSAS would have been valid if I'd conjured up a theory lacking scriptural support. Fortunately, all I did was to point to a text you conveniently ignored in the same chapter you cited. Should we not take the instructions in scripture as a whole or should we pick and choose only the bits that give us the feel-good factor?

friend of · Oct 21, 2021

Trivalee said:
There is no guarantee that a saved believer may not for reasons known to him, forsake Christ and return to the world. And when he does, God will not stop him. FACT

When God intends to draw a soul, there is nothing that will stop Him. His Soveriegn will cannot be striven against and overcome. He will keep that convert by the power of His Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth. Anyone who is truly born again will never forsake Christ.

lsume · Oct 21, 2021

Trivalee said:
Would please elaborate or clarify the following for me?

The difference between "rebirth" and "born again"?

And explain why after rebirth, it is impossible to lose salvation?

Also, explain what "severe punishment" means for a born-again that chose a lawless lifestyle?

First, someone who is truly born again won’t, in my opinion choose a lawless lifestyle. When you understand the punishment, you choose to stay away from it. Born again and rebirth are the same things in my mind. Once your sealed, you stay sealed until the day of your redemption. I hope these simple answers are helpful.

Trivalee · Oct 24, 2021

lsume said:
First, someone who is truly born again won’t, in my opinion choose a lawless lifestyle. When you understand the punishment, you choose to stay away from it. Born again and rebirth are the same things in my mind. Once your sealed, you stay sealed until the day of your redemption. I hope these simple answers are helpful.

Thank you so much for the clarity. I appreciate your candour in that you confirmed that your position is based on "your opinion" and not necessarily what the bible teaches.

I disagree with your view of course, but nonetheless, I wish you well in your bible studies.

Trivalee · Oct 24, 2021

friend of said:
When God intends to draw a soul, there is nothing that will stop Him. His Soveriegn will cannot be striven against and overcome. He will keep that convert by the power of His Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth. Anyone who is truly born again will never forsake Christ.

Your argument would be logical if we are discussing philosophy where sound rhetoric wins. Unfortunately, this is a bible discussion and an argument devoid of scriptural backing is no more than a conjecture and your reader(s) has no obligation to accept it.

If you can perhaps, come back with scripture to back your case, I will use the passage for my rebuttal. But without scripture, I refuse to accept your personal speculation as scriptural truth.

friend of · Oct 24, 2021

Trivalee said:
If you can perhaps, come back with scripture to back your case, I will use the passage for my rebuttal. B

Jeremiah 32:40
Romans 8:30

Trivalee · Oct 24, 2021

friend of said:
Jeremiah 32:40
Romans 8:30

I will not respond to abstract citations. When you quote scripture, explain how it ties into your case because the same scriptures could be used to make a different argument.

friend of · Oct 24, 2021

Trivalee said:
I will not respond to abstract citations. When you quote scripture, explain how it ties into your case because the same scriptures could be used to make a different argument.

You asked for scriptures about preserverence of the saints, which was my position, that true saints will be preserved by God. I gave you some. You refuse to interact with them. Here are some more:

Psalms 37:28
John 10:27-28
John 6:37

bcbsr · Oct 25, 2021

Trivalee said:
There are differing views on salvation.

Some Christians believe that once saved, one cannot lose salvation. IOW, they believe that eternal life is guaranteed. On the flip side, there are those that believe that even though we are saved, we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life.

What is your position on this topic? Kindly support your case with relevant scriptures.

Yes, "Once Saved, Always Saved".

As for the questions your pose, many can be answered by the basic principle that the saved endure to the end.

John writes, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

Thus John would evaluate those who fall away as not having been saved in the first place.

Furthermore John writes, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Thus those who point out verses which correlate salvation with behavior fail to take into account that principle. The nature of regeneration is such that those born of God do not continue in sin.

And that pretty much covers all the anti-Eternal security objections.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 29, 2021

friend of said:
Jeremiah 32:40

I believe Jeremiah 32:40 is written to the Jew and this will be fulfilled for them in the Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ (after the Lord Jesus returns here upon this Earth).

You said:
Romans 8:30

Quoting this verse is like with the situation with the Canaanite woman. Jesus told her that it’s not fit (not meet, or not proper) to cast the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. The Canaanite woman could have walked away thinking Jesus was making a definitive truth that had no other exceptions. But the Canaanite woman said that even the dogs eat the crumbs from the master’s table. Jesus did not rebuke her but he said great was her faith.

In other words, if Romans 8:30 was the only verse in the Bible, you might be on to something. But it is not. There are plenty of other truths in Scripture that teach that believers can fall away from the faith, and or die spiritually by abiding in unrepentant or unconfessed grievous sin (or major sin that leads to spiritual death).

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Matthew 10:1, Matthew 10:16) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Actually, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
God will destroy those believers who defile their temples by sin (See: 1 Corinthians 3:3, and 1 Corinthians 3:17; Also see Galatians 5:19-21).
We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 29, 2021

friend of said:
Romans 8:30

Anyways, so what about Romans 8:30?
How do I explain it?

Well, I believe it is referring to those believers who loved God in this life (See: Romans 8:28).

But Paul does not negate the possibility that a believer (in the present tense) can live after the flesh and die. For in context…

Romans 8:13 says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

Side Note:

Romans 8:13 is referring to spiritual death because it is contrasted with everlasting life.

Can Salvation be lost?

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