Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

genez said:

So? Why do you try to tell us we can lose what you say you can not know you have?????


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I didn't say he can't know it, misrepresenter of words. I asked you how can one know. I want to know what you think. Perhaps you can't answer the question? . . . and I would understand that.

Sawdust,

The 40 things we receive at Salvation

# 1 and 2 Imputed Righteousness..... Rom 4: 3-5
Justification.....Rom. 3: 24-30 are the same thing, Justification by faith.

# 3 Regeneration .....John 3: 1-12, Titus 3:5, Rom 8:16, 1 cor 2-14... Regeneration is not what we get at salvation, it is salvation. It is the entering into His Kingdom through baptism.

#4 Human Spirit.....Rom 8:16, 1 Cor 2:14 .... your references do not say anything about recieving a human spirit. Man has one by virtue of being a human being.

# 5 Imputed Everlasting Life.....John 5: 11-12.... all mankind has eternal life. Christ by His resurrection will raise all men, has given life to all mankind.

#6 Baptism of the Holy Spirit.....Rom 8: 1-2, Rom 8: 38-39, 1 Cor 15:2, 1 Cor 12:13, John 5: 11-12 again that is also regeneration.

#7 Propitiation.....Ex 25: 17-22, Heb 9:4, 1 John 2: 2... Christ propitiated the sins of the world. Not a single sin is excluded of all human beings.

# 8 Reconciliation.....Rom 5:10, 2 Cor 5:18-19 ....This reconciliation is what Christ did for mankind. Obviously since believers are drawn from "all of mankind" they are also the beneficiaries. This also aligns with Rom 5:18-19, Rom 11:32, I Cor 15: 20-22.

# 9 Redemption.....1 peter 1: 18-19.... Redemption referred to in I Pet 1:18-19 is again mankind. Mankind was redeemed so that believers could believe through faith.

#10 Forgiveness.....Isaiah 43: 25, Isaiah 44:22, Eph 1: 7, Col 1: 14...Yes, forgiveness because He propititated, atoned for all sins. As High Priest He can now forgive sins for those who desire, by faith, and through faith, to enter and to remain IN Him. Sin removes one from that union with Christ. Again, we remain through faith by confession and repentance. Sins are not forgiven UNLESS we ask that they be forgiven. It is not automatic. It is not because It depends on our willingness to remain faithful.

#11 Removal of Condemnation.....John 3:18, Rom 8: 1-3... we are free of condemnation ONLY by faith and believing In Christ. We must continue to believe in order to remain free from condemnation. IF we fall to unbelief we shall be cast out and be condemned with the unbeliever.

#12, Removal of Domination of the Old Sin Nature.....Rom 6:6-12,,, Totally unrealistic. We still have our human natures, our fallen, sin proned natures. But we have been freed to chose which nature we desire. We constantly war against the flesh. That is the whole struggle of being IN Christ. Of remaining faithful in spite of that fallen flesh trying to lure us away from Christ.

#13, Removal of Satan's Power.....Col 1: 12-13, 1 John 5: 19, Eph 6:11-12, Eph 2: 1-2, Gal 1: 12-13... Again an unrealistic statment. We are not removed from Satan but given the power, ability with the Holy Spirit to resist the devil. That is the problem of being a Christian. We are specifically the goal of Satan to war against us, to get us to leave Christ. If it were not possible, Satan would be out of work. But unfortunately, He is quite successful. It is you that must be faithful, and we can do this with the Holy Spirit AS LONG AS WE DESIRE to remain faithful.

#14,Freedom from the Penalty of the Mosaic Law.....Rom 3: 8, Rom 8:2, Gal 3: 10-13... none of these verses say we are free from the Mosaic Law. It says we are free from the law of death and sin. That is the condemnation of mankind through Adam. This is what Christ overcame for mankind, not just believers. It made union by faith possible again, to fulfil the created order of why we were created, to be eternal and in union with God, freely. Christ did not abolish the law be came to fulfil it and establish it. Rom 4:31.

#15 Identification with Jesus Christ.....Rom 6: 3-12, Gal 2: 20, We are identified with Christ through faith. A very key term.

#16, 17, 18 are really the same thing. If you have one, you have all. We do believe in the Trinity, right? this indwelling is again through faith. We enter by faith and are being saved through faith. As long as we remain faithful, we have these blessings.

#19 Sealing of your Salvation.....Eph 4: 30, Tim 2: 19, Eph 1: 13.... Eph 4:30 simply refers to the sealing, but clearly indicates that a beliver can grieve and in some translations, quench, which means to put out. Eph 1:13, the actual sealing is the sealing of the Holy Spirit, our guarantee of the inheritance based His promise. His promise is that He will be faithful IF we are faithful. It is a promise, a downpayment where the full inheritance is being held and will be given ONLY and IF we remain faithful. I Pet 1:3-5 explicitedly states this as well. It is through faith that we are being saved. Again, can you make such a promise regarding your committment to Christ? Can you guarantee your faithfulness for the future, as He can?

#20 Circumcision of the Soul.....1 Cor 7: 17-24, Jer 4: 4, Rom 2: 29, Deut 10: 16-17 This is not something given to us, but that we do. It is again faith which brings about either the circumcision of the OT as well as baptism in the NT. Again, the result of faith, of believing, being saved. Everything is dependent ON OUR FAITH. We receive Christ by faith, we keep Him through our faith. Thus if we lose faith, we lose Christ, and we forfeit the inheritance, we will not be saved. Repentance, confession and living IN Christ saves us.

#21 Unseen to both mankind and believers. Vs 6 is speaking of mankind being justified by Christ who made mankind acceptable to God. That is what justified means. To be put into a correct relationship. Christ justified, reconciled, redeemed mankind to God. V4-5 is speaking of believers who by faith have entered into His Kingdom to recieve all these blessings. Again, we get them by faith.

#22 Judgement of Sins.....1 Pet 2: 24, Rom 4: 251 John 1: 9 But this judgement was for all sins. He bore the sins of the world on that Tree. It is this reconciliation that we by faith might live for righteousness. It is we who do the living in righteousness, it is what is known as being saved through faith. I John 1:9 is the forgiveness of sins which is made possible by the texts of I Pet 2:24 and Rom 4:25. Again, we can receive forgiveness of sins because we believe, because we are In Christ, it is one of the blessings of being saved. But we can throw all those blessings away by becoming unfaithful. By willfully leaving the fold, thus no longer believing, no longer in faith. We have become faithless.

#23 Royal Adoption.....Rom 8: 15, Rom 8: 23 Again adopted by faith. This adoption is possible ONLY because Christ redeemed mankind from death and sin. ONLY faith, and faithfulness keeps us as adopted Sons.

#24Eternal Relationship to God.....Eph 2: 13, James 4: 8, Heb 10: 25 .....Eph2:13 is again speaking of mankind. Man, through Adam, through the condemnation of death were aliens, afar off, but were made acceptable, brought near by His blood. This whole discourse is speaking of the breakdown between Jew and Gentile. All mankind would be saved, again goes back to Rom 11:32.
James 4:8 does not address eternal relationship with God. It implies that WE must come near to HIm, submit to Christ, Ah those promises we make to God again. All by faith, remaining faithful.
What has Heb 10:25 got to do with the statment? It is speaking about assembling, a Church gathering for the mutual uplifting of the saints. Strengthening each other in the faith. It is faith, faith, faith. All faith. We are saved through our faith.

#25 We are on the Rock Jesus Christ.....2 Cor 1: 21; 2, Cor 3: 11, Eph 2: 26. ..... II Cor 1:21 Again, for other contexts, we are IN Christ by faith. We are annointed by God who has sealed us with the Holy Spirit. He gives the Holy Spirit as an aid. We retain this gift ONLY so long as WE remain faithful. God does not guarantee your faithfulness. That is wholly our obligation and duty to remain faithful. He desires a willful member of His Body, not one dragged against his will. He through the Holy Spirit works in you to do His will, but it is you deciding with your own will who you will be a slave for, Christ or the devil. We can change at will.

#26 We are a Gift to Christ.....John 17: 5, John 17: 11-12, John 17: 20, John 10: 29...
John 17:5 is Jesus's High Priestly prayer, and vs 5 is Jesus praying for Himself. How is that about we are a gift to Christ? John 17:11-12 Same prayer, but now the emphasis is shifted to the disciples. John 17:20 now this part of the prayer is for His Church. He is praying for the unity of the Church and compares it to the Unity, the Trinity, between the Persons of the Trinity.
Only John 10:29 applies to the statement. And it is true for beleivers, but it is equally true for mankind. God is love, and nothing will separate His love for His creatures, man. But the problem you are faced with here is that no mention is made of the beleiver himself, removing himself from Christ. Willfully becoming unfaithful, or willfully rejecting Christ. Again, goes back to your promises. can you make the same finite promise as Christ has for His side of the covenantal, mutual relatioship we have with Christ?

#27,#28 Royal Priesthood.....Peter 2: 5, Peter 2: 9, Rev 1: 6 , We are a Chosen Generation.....1 Peter 2: 9, Titus 2: 14.... These two are the same thing. The elect is a chosen generation, His Church is the chosen generation, but one must remain in that union with Christ to remain chosen. If we lose faith, we are no longer one of the elect.

#29 Access to God.....Eph 2: 18, Rom 5: 2, Heb 4: 14, Heb 10: 19-20... again, access by and through faith. So, again, if we lose faith, we lose access until we repent, confess our sins, and return to the fold.

#30We are under God's Care.....Eph 2: 4, Eph 5: 2, 31. ....Eph 2:4 is God's love toward mankind. While we were yet sinners, dead in sins and trespasses He saved us. Christ redeemed mankind, not just potential believers. Again, Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22, Col 1:15-20, II Cor 5:18-20. Eph 5:2; But the implication is again, mankind, and because of that great love and mercy He sacrificed Himself for us. That we should be imitators, we should shun all those evil actions in vs3-5. Also, those believers who succumb to these sins are no longer being IN Christ. They have removed themselves from those blessings. It is hardly imitating Christ when we do those things. Vs 7 tells you quite clearly.
Eph 5:31 is hardly a text that compliments the statment either. Divorce happens all the time. This s separation is it not. Is a couple still married if divorced? So it is with a relationship with Christ. We can divorce ourselves from Him.

#31We are His Inheritance.....Eph 1: 18.....yes, and verse 19 explains again how we become His inheritance, faith.

#32We Inherit Christ's Eternal Future.....1 Pet 1: 14, Eph 4: 14, Col 3: 24, Heb 9: 15....
I'm not sure just what meaning you have of I Pet 1:14 but it does not address the statement. It deals with us not conforming to the former lusts of the flesh, but to be transformed into His likeness, who called us to be Holy as He is Holy. Again, work, work and more work to work with the Holy Spirit so we can be transformed and not fall again into the deeds of the flesh. Vs 17 tells you how we should do it.
Eph 4:14 does not address our future either, except that we should not give heed to the doctrines of men. We are to be faithful and thus true to the Unity of which Christ prayed for His Church in John 17:20-23.
Col 3:24 does address the issue. We are to serve the Lord. Can we serve the Lord without doing any work? Vs 23 seems to imply quite clearly that it is what we do, we should do it unto Christ and not men. the whole of chapter 4 is telling us how to live IN Christ. Sounds like a lot of action and work to me. What we do is through faith. The works manifest our faith. Faith is the key to our salvation.

#33 We have a Heavenly Partnership and Association.....Col 3: 4, 1 John 5: 11-12, Eph 2:6, 1 Cor 1: 9, 1 Cor 3: 9, 2 Cor 3: 3, 2 Cor 3: 6, 2 Cor 5: 20, @ cor 6: 4.....But you have been arguing strongly against such a union and communion with Christ. You want Christ to do everything for you, yet most of these texts all show that the believer has a obligation to Christ. It all hinges on ones faith. We recieve all these things through faith. If we lose faith, we lose salvation, unless we repent, remain reconciled to Christ.

#34 We Become Heavenly Citizens.....Eph 2: 19, Phill 3: 20-21.... Eph 2:19 is the beginning of a long statment which is summed up in Eph 3:12. One cannot get away from faith. Our salvation depends on our faith. We receive everything through faith as beleivers and we will also lose everything with the loss of faith. Nothing of man is quaranteed. I see nothing man can do but to remain faithful. We do not do this alone, but the decision to remain or to leave is all up to man and his desires.

#35We Become Members of the Royal Family of God....Eph 2: 19, Eph 3: 5, Gal 6: 10[/quote] This is the same as above, the Royal Priesthood, a called out peoples, a Holy nation, etc. This is not unique, just a different way of saying the same thing.

#36 We are the Light in the Lord.....Eph 5: 8, Thess 5: 4........ Which is why He created us in the first place, then saved us from condemnation so that He could have union and communion with man. This union is entered by faith and maintained through faith.

#37We are United to the Trinity.....1 Cor 12: 13, John 15: 5, Eph 2: 19, Eph 2: 22, Eph 5: 25-27, 1 Peter 2: 5-9 yes, because we are IN Christ. Goes to the prayer in John 17, also I Pet 1:20 because we share in His Divine Nature. But again, why and how do we receive these benefits, and can we lose them? By and through faith, and yes, when we lose faith.

#38 We are Glorified.....Rom 8: 30..... All mankind will be glorified. All men were made alive through Christ, all men therefore shall be raised from the dead. All men will share in the incorruptibility and immortality received through Christ's death and resurrection. The only difference is that believers with be WITH CHRIST, while unbelievers will be APART from Him for an eternity.

#39 We are Complete in Him.....Col 2: 10.... Yes, and elsewhere Paul refers to the believer as being the perfect man. But once again, it all depends on man's faithfulness. Vs5 builds up to it and vs12 is a restatement.

#40 We Recieve a Guardian Angel.....Heb 1: 14.... How about Heb 2:1 as an answer?

The above are guaranteed promises of God to a believer. There are many things a believer receives but they all DEPEND ON MAN'S desire. They all depend on our faith. No place is man's faith guaranteed. You did not list this as one of the things we recieve as believers.
One needs to follow faith. Faith is what saves a man's soul. Some of the above are addressing the salvation of mankind and not the believer specifically.

Genez,

Could you learn how to use the software, please? This posts makes it like you were quoting me, and I have no idea who that was you were quoting from.

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I use it like everyone else does.
That was a mistake of persons to whom I was responding. It should have been Sawdust. For that I apologize.
But you should know what you say and don't say. Is it that difficult to remember what you say?
Why is it difficult to follow a whole discourse or do you not read the other posters replies?

Ormly said:

I didn't say he can't know it, misrepresenter of words. I asked you how can one know. I want to know what you think. Perhaps you can't answer the question?

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A lesson learned , sir? What's worse?


Simply misrepresenting your word (if I had)?

Or, misrepresenting the Word of God?

Think about that for a moment, perhaps...




I told you, its by that ... That I know I am saved. Then? You ask how do I know?

What are you?

You act like the Word of God is not about reality. That it does not describe reality. That it is a philosophy that works by means of the power of suggestion. That's how you act...








That's about reality. Jesus was not speaking in riddles. You act like its a free for all riddle, that has an open interpretation.




Some just can not see it. They look for excuses to justify their inability to grasp it and to trust in it. Yet, to do so, they first must keep forgetting what it is they wish to deny.

Its an attempt to comfort oneself in one's own feeling of deficiency. To make the other who feels sufficient to be brought down low, so they can now feel superior in turn. But, it will not happen when confronting someone who knows God... Resentment then follows.












The Son does not choose to reveal to all. Does he? ... Humility vs arrogance. Who will win?





Or... Who is already the winner?















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genez said:

A lesson learned , sir? What's worse?


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Not knowing one is saved; living in presumption, in "Self"-delusion.

Again, you wrote:

Originally Posted by genez

So? Why do you try to tell us we can lose what you say you can not know you have?????

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My question remains: How do you know you are saved that it be not mere a mental ascent?

Ormly said:

Not knowing one is saved; living in presumption, in "Self"-delusion.

Again, you wrote:



My question remains: How do you know you are saved that it be not mere a mental ascent?

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What you are asking me, is like a deaf man asking me what a guitar sounds like.

You tell me how to tell him.

Jesus spoke about those who have ears to hear. All those he spoke to had ears. But, not all heard (comprehended) what he was saying.


The Holy Spirit is closer to me than I am myself.


You don't understand. Others, do...




In Christ, GeneZ



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Ben johnson said:

It was really more of a judgment. 40 years is a "generation"; those who were faithless and turned from God (and worshipped the golden calf), died in the wilderness; their kids entered the Promised Land.

Your turn --- what does Heb4:11 mean to you?
"Be diligent TO enter God's rest, lest any of you FALL by imitating the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief".

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The Lord refrained from judgment on a number of occasions. Here is one example:

Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened. Ex.32:14

He did make a few mini judgments on individuals and small groups but overall He did not execute judgment on them.

He led them the way He led them (through the desert) for the purpose of discipline.

They had just received a supernatural salvation (crossing the Red Sea). He led them by way of the desert so they could learn they needed to be sustained supernaturally as well. They were meant to learn they could not trust in natural means for their sustenance but supernatural.

In the same way today, when a person believes in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (and I am presuming they hear the true Gospel, not a false one), they receive a supernatural salvation.

The Lord leads them in paths to teach them they are to trust in His supernatural provision rather than their own strength and/or natural abilities and their own way of thinking.

We are to walk in the power (filling of the Spirit) through faith in the word of God.

This walk does not come naturally, nor is it a natural walk. This is why we suffer under God's discipline because our natural tendencies are kicking against this way of life. Everything from "go to whoa" is supernatural. But for those who are willing to learn from Him and walk according to the very strict way He has planned for their life, they find the rest the Lord has promised.

This is what the Hebrews writer is saying in the verse you quote.

Don't be unwilling to believe the Lord in what He says and in the paths He leads you. You believed Him to save you, now keep going and believe He will sustain you through to the very end. If you don't, if you become like the Israelites of old always grumbling about this path the Lord has you on, you will not know the rest the Lord commands for you. Your soul will always know turmoil, people will always be a distraction to you or worse, every time you meet the challenges that are presented you will fall apart. You won't have to keep on running off to someone else to solve your problems like the Israelites did to Moses because you will have the resources (the word) in your own soul to meet the challenges. I could go on and on with the results of a what a believer looks like when they refuse to learn from the Lord's discipline but it is too miserable to contemplate and it is even worse if you have to deal with them unless you yourself have grown in the Lord's truth and have come to know (at least in some measure) the rest there is for the people of God.

Ben, you really need to get past equating the word "unbelief" with "unsaved". If you don't you are effectively saying that no-one can be saved unless their faith is as perfect and as full as Christ's was. None of us has that measure of faith. Even the "best Christian" has some measure of unbelief in their soul. This does not mean they are unsaved.

peace

Sawdust,

Ben, you really need to get past equating the word "unbelief" with "unsaved". If you don't you are effectively saying that no-one can be saved unless their faith is as perfect and as full as Christ's was. None of us has that measure of faith. Even the "best Christian" has some measure of unbelief in their soul. This does not mean they are unsaved.

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If we are saved by and through faith, then how can we be saved also by no faith and unbelief. You want salvation but do not desire to actually live it.
It seems much to difficult for you because Christ demands perfection. So you do not heed His word but develop a more sympathic gospel that fits your desires. How humanistic and a very powerful pyschological drug administered by the devil. He is the great deceiver. He is the master of deceit.

Rightglory said:

Sawdust,

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If we are saved by and through faith, then how can we be saved also by no faith and unbelief. You want salvation but do not desire to actually live it.

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Our salvation [from the Lake of Fire] is by means of faith in Christ.


After we are saved? We are saved from the stupidity of ourselves and others by accepting the Word of God. We are to add "faith to faith."



But, the faith we already have is not undone by our unwillingness to grow in faith. But, its effectiveness in our experience will be lost. What remains is only as head knowledge. Once we repent, it jumps back into life. Repentance requires acceptance of rebukes and reprovals that come from the teaching of sound doctrine. But, I'm sure you see yourself as the one needing to teach me... But? You do not even know with certainty that you're saved. That's not good.



Living faith requires a growing in grace and understanding of the knowledge of God's Word to keep it effectual in the believer's life.

It seems much to difficult for you because Christ demands perfection.

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Yes. Perfection. That very same perfection we can not achieve in ourselves.


He provided our perfection by grace. Judicially, God declares us righteous because of the work of Christ in our place on the Cross! And, we believed in it.

We can not achieve this perfection in ourselves.

If we could?

Jesus would not have had to die on the Cross.

He would have simply demanded perfection of behavior and begin picking us off with his Divine BB gun when we failed. (nobody would have been left standing).

To be perfect as God is perfect, means to walk as Christ did. For he is God!

That means we are to walk as he did. Filled with the Spirit and always accepting and depending on the Father's will for our life.

Only Christ never waivered. But, we are to walk as he did.


Jesus never sinned. But, we do. He died on the Cross so we can be counted to walk as he did. So, our sins would be forgiven, and we can keep walking in the Spirit the moment we name and admit our sins to God. (1 Jn 1:9)

So you do not heed His word but develop a more sympathic gospel that fits your desires. How humanistic and a very powerful pyschological drug administered by the devil. He is the great deceiver. He is the master of deceit.

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Satan tells that to everyone. Especially, the ones he has deceived. It makes them feel exclusive in not being deceived when they believe this.

Yet? We are all deceived in certain ways. One way is willful ignorance. The other, is ignorance.

God can overcome ignorance. Willful ignorance... he just lets us reap what we sow.






In Christ, GeneZ





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genez said:

Romans 8:15 (New International Version)​

"For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."​

​

What you are asking me, is like a deaf man asking me what a guitar sounds like.

You tell me how to tell him.

Jesus spoke about those who have ears to hear. All those he spoke to had ears. But, not all heard (comprehended) what he was saying.


The Holy Spirit is closer to me than I am myself.


You don't understand. Others, do...




In Christ, GeneZ
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My point is this: If you can't speak from a definite understanding thus making it a black and white issue, why are you so quick to condemn what you don't understand from others who do? An example would be: Your lack of Pentecostal experience is loud and clear and yet you speak of if it as being unecessary or it is all inclusive with the sinners prayer. I believe I would want to start there for rectfication to make sure my learning of Jesus Christ is complete.

Rightglory said:

Sawdust,

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If we are saved by and through faith, then how can we be saved also by no faith and unbelief. You want salvation but do not desire to actually live it.
It seems much to difficult for you because Christ demands perfection. So you do not heed His word but develop a more sympathic gospel that fits your desires. How humanistic and a very powerful pyschological drug administered by the devil. He is the great deceiver. He is the master of deceit.

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You have not got a clue what I'm talking about. Once again you have completely misunderstod what I am saying. Forum rules prevent me from saying what you need to hear most.

Rightglory said:

Sawdust,

[/font]
If we are saved by and through faith, then how can we be saved also by no faith and unbelief. You want salvation but do not desire to actually live it.
It seems much to difficult for you because Christ demands perfection. So you do not heed His word but develop a more sympathic gospel that fits your desires. How humanistic and a very powerful pyschological drug administered by the devil. He is the great deceiver. He is the master of deceit.

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That is why Paul wrote that he lived by the faith OF the son of God, Gal2:20 . . . and why Bible translations are to be examined that they convey what the writer intends conveyed.

Ormly said:

My point is this: If you can't speak from a definite understanding thus making it a black and white issue, why are you so quick to condemn what you don't understand from others who do?

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One can not make faith a black and white matter. If you understood faith, you would realize your confession of not understanding it. For, faith is only black and white to those who have been GIVEN faith. They do not need it explained.





Peter was saved by grace, through faith. It was not of himself. It was the gift of God. Not of works!

Now?



Peter knew who Jesus was. By God's grace, Peter did!

By his own logic he knew? No. Its a gift from God. So? Could he make it black and white to another who the Father has not yet given this to? No. The other person could only be made aware of what Peter claimed to know. But, Peter could not prove it in black and white terms. Black and white only happens when two share in the same gift. They are clear that they know the other's experience.



Peter could only show by Scripture that Jesus is the Christ. But, that would not prove anything if the person was rejecting God. "Its just a matter of your interpretation!" Yet, Peter preached sound doctrine to those who had ears to hear. The others who were walking in the Spirit in humility.



God only gives faith to those whom he has tested and been proven to be given faith. Its handing over of power. One does not give the keys to the car to a person who is reckless in attitude. Faith is real power. Its a power unseen by those not having it.









Black and white.

As you asked for.

sawdust said:

You have not got a clue what I'm talking about. Once again you have completely misunderstod what I am saying. Forum rules prevent me from saying what you need to hear most.

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What he is saying is that you have interpreted Scripture to fit your desired outcome. Just like he does!

In other words? In trying to condemn you, he condemns himself. For his Gospel is bad news! The Gospel is supposed to be good news. Right there tells us something.

The Gospel could not be good news if it put one into the slavery of having to secure his own salvation. It would be placing the Jews right back into the bondage they had been all along. Trying to be saved by works.

Good news? But, nothing has changed? (make sense?)


Just observe and take notes. God's happiness overcomes all negativity.

The truth makes us free. Legalism desires to make us slaves.





As it happened back then?

Some here are also motivated by conceit (pride) and envy of those who are secure with their faith. Their whole purpose is to provoke.

Both history - and misery - repeats itself.

Misery feels that its been left out of something. Envy is its protective shield. Its out to prove that what it thinks its been left out of does not really exist. Its only illusion.

So, they provoke, in attempt to pop the bubble they perceive the faith of others to be. They believe you can lose your salvation because they have never come to terms with the essence of what faith (that saves) really is.

Again, its like the deaf man sitting before a band performing. He keeps grabbing others sitting near by who he can see enjoying the music, and demands that they reveal to him what a guitar sounds like!

He really does not expect to find out. He only wants to attack (provoke) the joy that they have from the experience which he is left out of. Envy.

But, in order to provoke he plays stupid, and acts like its their responsibility to make him able to know. That way he might get them to feel sorry for him, as well.

But? The Ear Doctor is right down the street, and is free. The Ear Doctor keeps rejecting him because he knows that if he granted him his hearing, this deaf man would not use it for right purposes. So... I have no sympathy.



When we feel sorry for someone in such matters, we are not agreeing with God. To feel sorry for someone in such matters is a form of conceit on our part. For, in reality.. we are no better than they are. To feel sorry, is to say we are better.

Its not because of the goodness of who and what certain believers are that they have been given the gift of faith that others lack. Its because these ones realize that they are not having any self sufficiency (worthiness of merit before God) to know better than others, so that God is able in their weaknesses to make them strong in faith.


Its those who think they are naturally strong in themselves whom God will leave weak in faith.

I have learned not to feel sorry for anyone who rejects faith. For God is no respecter of persons. Anyone who bows down in humility before God will be lifted up in God's due time. Those who feign humility by becoming slaves to saving themselves by their works, God has nothing to do with.

Paul was at one time in his life was the worst slaves to works for salvation. He turned out to be the greatest grace believer in his day. So, no one is with excuse.

When no one is with excuse? Then I offer no sympathy. Yet, part of me still wishes they could know what I and others have been given. But, that's love. Not feeling sorry for them.


If I felt sorry for them? It would mean that I believed God showed me favoritism. No one is with excuse. There is nothing I have that they can not as well. Maybe even become better at it if they had it!

For God is everywhere at all times. Ready to free those desiring to be free from evil. Which means, their freedom will not be based upon their own wishful thinking, nor according to their own terms. Like the Jews who wanted Jesus to be crowned their King and to push out Rome. That's why they fail to receive grace.



In Christ, GeneZ




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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly

My point is this: If you can't speak from a definite understanding thus making it a black and white issue, why are you so quick to condemn what you don't understand from others who do?


One can not make faith a black and white matter. If you understood faith, you would realize your confession of not understanding it. For, faith is only black and white to those who have been GIVEN faith. They do not need it explained.

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Man, by his God created nature, is a worshipper. Ergo. he has faith from his beginning, he will and does worship something or someone. Faith is not something special God gives except to special people living in the Pentecostal realm of His gifts to the Church however, that is another issue. Redemption, is definable as in, black and white, outside faith because it is an event faith has nothing to do with. It happened and you and I had nothing to do with it. Believing the account requires little faith. We have a historical record of fact to help us. What does require faith is for to live as the man Jesus lived. "I only do as I see My Father doing". What do we see out Father doing, if He is our Father? Do you know the Father well enough that you can take it beyond mental ascent? It is given that you should know. "We [are to] walk by faith, not by sight". Union with the Ftaher, requires it that and will return to us something more than a "mental ascent witness", if we are faithful. "This is the confidence we have in Him . . . . . .". Confidence is a black and white issue.

Sawdust,

You have not got a clue what I'm talking about. Once again you have completely misunderstod what I am saying. Forum rules prevent me from saying what you need to hear most.

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It might be true. If so, it is because you have not explained what you might mean.
But what you have written and explained is not, and has never been the Gospel once given. If so, every Christian would have recognized it as the Gospel. After all, it has been around for 2000 years, has been explained the same way, has been practiced the same way during that time. It will continue to be believed and practiced that way in the future.
You have a novel interpretation that has no authenticity as being Gospel. It does not align with the "Rule of Faith" that which has always been believed.

Ormly said:

Man, by his God created nature, is a worshipper. Ergo. he has faith from his beginning, he will and does worship something or someone. Faith is not something special God gives except to special people living in the Pentecostal realm of His gifts to the Church.

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That's how we get faith.


Faith comes by hearing God's Word and believing it. Faith is believing the Word done in the power of grace. Grace is God's enabling power making us able to believe (and to know with certainty) that what the Word of God says is truth.

Now? The particular gift of faith you spoke of? That was a gift given to only some in the early Church, because there was a deficiency in Scripture until the completed Bible was made known. With a completed canon of Scripture we now have what is needed to extract our needed faith from. Before, some were given a special gift of faith.


The gift of faith we have onto salvation is given to ALL who are saved.




Everyone who is saved has been given the gift of faith. Its a gift from God. Believing Jesus died for your sins and rose again is all the faith you need to be saved.

The Pentecostal concept you mentioned would only apply to the early church as a gap measure, until the Church had enough of the Word of God given at least orally, which would eventually be found in the written canon of Scripture.


I believe you have confused the unique temporary gift of faith given to a few in the early church, with the progressive faith from growing in knowledge of the Word which is always given as a gift, as well. For grace enables us to receive faith. The "gift of Faith" was a spontaneous faith that did not require hearing a message before one had it. They "just were able to know" it was so.







In Christ, GeneZ



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Rightglory said:

It might be true. If so, it is because you have not explained what you might mean.
But what you have written and explained is not, and has never been the Gospel once given. If so, every Christian would have recognized it as the Gospel. After all, it has been around for 2000 years, has been explained the same way, has been practiced the same way during that time. It will continue to be believed and practiced that way in the future.

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Would you please get off this notion that only your church knows the truth. That our brains must be chained and locked into what certain men said two thousand years ago.

Quite a while back in another thread I gave my interpreration of a certain passage that I had never seen expressed before. I learned it from no man. It had come to me while studying. Then, a good time after that, I discovered that one of the early church father's had the same thought.

The point is? Its the Holy Spirit is the one who gives correct interpretation if we are in right standing with God, and also have been faithful to gain in knowledge of God's Word, so we can be shown the truth.

So.. Correct interpretation, where ever we find it, is not locked back in time. Nor, were they back then totally free of erroneous thinking. I have had erroneous thoughts over the years. Ones that as I grew in understanding, came to a point of correction. Thank God.

I still make mistakes today. Yet? For, you to think God waved a magic wand over the heads of the early fathers? And, made every thing they expressed, as being infallible? To believe this is a desire to believe in fairy tales. It had its roots in pagan tradition. "The Great Orak has spoken! Obey!"


In contrast to your wishful thinking. The Word of God teaches us not to be the way you are.



I believe that passage exists in your Bible?

If not?

Then you can follow blindly as you have been.

Unless it is not in your Bible? You are not obeying the Word of God. And, on top of that, want us to join you into a state of mind that I find anathema.

But? Prove me wrong? Does you Bible not say that?

While you're at it... here's another translation for you...



Your way of thinking forbids that!






It was seen as a noble thing to do with Paul.
But? Not so, for those lesser than him who followed after him?
Your way of thinking makes no sense what so ever to me.

Is it to be?

That's how certain pagan religions presented themselves to their followers. Paul and the Apostles were not converts from paganism. Those who followed after them, many were. Some old traits did not die easy.





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Genez,

Would you please get off this notion that only your church knows the truth. That our brains must be chained and locked into what certain men said two thousand years ago.

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It's not my Church. It is Christ's Church, He is the Head, I am a member of that Church. It is what Christ has stated that matters, not men, even though they be Apostles. If you really don't believe what the Bible states, let alone historical record, why are you using the Bible?

Quite a while back in another thread I gave my interpreration of a certain passage that I had never seen expressed before. I learned it from no man. It had come to me while studying. Then, a good time after that, I discovered that one of the early church father's had the same thought.

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You should have started there instead. But just because a Church Father stated it, does not make it the Gospel once given. Arius was a Church Father also, before he became a heretic. They had novel ideas which did not match anything that was written or stated before as an interpretation of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit works through His Church, the entire Body to preserve His Gospel. It is not individual men. The Church has never depended on individual men, even groups of men.

The point is? Its the Holy Spirit is the one who gives correct interpretation if we are in right standing with God, and also have been faithful to gain in knowledge of God's Word, so we can be shown the truth.

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Yes, your are right. But He gave ALL Truth to the Apostles in the beginning, ONCE, for all time. They taught that gospel, established Churches with that Gospel. Put in into practice all over the then Roman Empire and it was all the same, unity of faith. It is still the same faith after 2000 years. Man has not been allowed to change that Gospel in 2000 years.
Can you say that for your interpretation. Not just one small incite, but the whole Gospel Truth? Can you show that the Apostles actually knew of your interpretation when it was given. The Holy Spirit does not give you authority relative to private interpretation of His Gospel. That is why every single individual who has attempted to change that Gospel has failed. Why would you be an exception after 2000 years?
What the Holy Spirit is doing is leading you to the Truth that He once gave, for all, for all time. Not new revelation, new ideas, new interpretation of a gospel that was completely given 2000 years ago.
Being shown the Truth is different than acknowledging that Truth. Is it His Gospel that you desire or what you can determine and develop from a Book you have isolated.

So.. Correct interpretation, where ever we find it, is not locked back in time. Nor, were they back then totally free of erroneous thinking. I have had erroneous thoughts over the years. Ones that as I grew in understanding, came to a point of correction. Thank God.

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It is backed by the authority of the Holy Spirit to fulfil a promise that He would not forsake His Church, and to preserve His Gospel through the age. Do you believe Him?
You are so locked into individual man determining Truth that you cannot see that individuals back then did not determine Truth either. The Truth was given and preserved. That is what the Bible tells us. That it has not changed is a testament to that faithful work, the historical authenticity of the Holy Spirit.
Look around you in the protestant milieu. Do you ever think a unity of any gospel could be derived from man constantly seeking to develop his own truth? The Holy Spirit would of necessity be considered quite confused if all of these interepretations were actually instilled by Him. Let us assume one would be correct. You have no way to determine which one that would be of the hundred currently available. The Gospel that Christ gave is universal, not a private thing.

I still make mistakes today. Yet? For, you to think God waved a magic wand over the heads of the early fathers? And, made every thing they expressed, as being infallible?

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The Church Fathers are not infallible. They did not create or interpret anything. The Gospel, the interpretation, the understanding, the practice was ALL set by the Apostles, inspired by the Holy Spirit, not even as individuals but as a group.
It is the obligation of the succeeding generations as a mass, the ecclessia which is how the Holy Spirit works in Christ's Body to preserve that unity and Truth once given. That is why it is called the Rule of faith. that which has always been believed. It is the test for false doctrine and teaching. It has been used by The Church, with Christ as Head, in the Ecumenical Councils. It would be rediculous to use the principle of Sola Scripture, as every single issue was always based on scripture. Every single false teaching is based on scripture. The test of Truth is, has it always been beleived and practiced as the Gosple once given.

To believe this is a desire to believe in fairy tales. It had its roots in pagan tradition. "The Great Orak has spoken! Obey!"

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apparently you dismiss it so cavalierly so that you can develop your own fairy tale. Quite a statment to think that the original Truth was based on pagen tradition. Could you cite any of these to verify such an assessment? History does not agree with you, and neither does the Bible for that matter.
I might also ask, who gave you the Bible as you know it? That pagen tradition?

In contrast to your wishful thinking. The Word of God teaches us not to be the way you are.

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I would like to see your texts you use to show this when the opposite is quite clearly stated in scripture. Paul even exhorts to be like the Bereans. I can assure you the Bereans did nto first read the OT, then come up with their innovative interpretation, then match it with Pauls. If it did not match, it must not be of Paul. That is what sola scriptura does. Man becomes the ultimate authority over a book. It is HIS gospel that is being generated, not what the Bible has recorded.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

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Maybe you should begin doing this, instead of first developing your own truth and then using it to determine all else false.

But? Prove me wrong? Does you Bible not say that?

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it does, but I just showed that the method you use is unscriptural. Can you show that what you state has been stated by the Church for 2000 years, that it has been the universal Gospel once given?

"But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast."
Your way of thinking forbids that!

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It has been confirmed by that text. you have yet to show that yours meets the standard of the Gospel once given. That Gospel preserved in Unity for all, for all time. Not a new faith, that only a few hundred if you are lucky even understand it the same way you do. Hardly Gospel Truth, once given, and preserved for all time.

Acts 17:11 (New International Version)
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

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As I stated above, it is something you should do. Check what Paul actually taught, what was established by Him and all other apostles.

That's how certain pagan religions presented themselves to their followers. Paul and the Apostles were not converts from paganism. Some old traits did not die easy.

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That is why I hold to what was given to them and they taught and established, and NOT any individual man, or even a group, surely not your teaching which is an individual man. All have been proven to be in error in the past. So far, so has yours, unless you can show that it actually was what the apostles taught in the first century and subsequent centuries kept re-recording the same teaching until today, unchanged.

Those who followed after them, many were.

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And you have followed in their steps with the same method and reasoning. All those back then and today have all been declared heretical.