Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

[Margaret3110]

Yes they were subject to Roman rule but they were not subservient to it. They recognized the legal authority of Rome but still treated Rome as an enemy, something you didn't collude with or bend the knee too in all instances. Christians who did do what Rome wanted, such as in the case of sacrificing to the gods, were literally expelled from the Churches and excommunicated. Christians understood themselves as fundamentally alien from Rome.

Perhaps we should have such an attitude towards our own secular liberal democracies.

That is actually pretty much my attitude.

 

[Isilwen]

Perhaps we should have such an attitude towards our own secular liberal democracies.

And yet it is the liberal democracies that give people safety nets that have been mentioned here. What I hear from Republicans is to pick yourself up by the bootstraps. That is not always possible.

I am all for safety nets that many Republicans want to cancel or severely limit their ability to function.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Yes, of course He does. But He causes millions cf miscarriages, so obviously not all human lives are sacred.

The USA supports abortion and considers it morally neutral right?

 

[GodLovesCats]

Can you show us where in the New Testament it says we should impose our religious beliefs on others using the government?

This behavior is exactly why millions of Americans have left the church and decided to become atheists or refuse to listen when evangelical Christians attempt to spread the Gospel.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

And yet it is the liberal democracies that give people safety nets that have been mentioned here. What I hear from Republicans is to pick yourself up by the bootstraps. That is not always possible.

I am all for safety nets that many Republicans want to cancel or severely limit their ability to function.

Liberal democratic safetynets are also one of the key reasons why society and breaking down and atomizing the individual. By taking on all responsibilities local communities and organizations like Churches once fulfilled we are seeing a vastly expansive state and the destruction of institutions like family and community.

Republicans are just one end of the liberal spectrum, the more individualist angle which also fails to preserve said communities so I don't really have any sympathy for them either.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That is actually pretty much my attitude.

Except I don't think it is. Those same Christians carried their attitudes forward when they gained power and used said power in explicitly Christian fashion. Nor did they see a contradiction in this.

 

[Desk trauma]

The USA supports abortion and considers it morally neutral right?

It's a rather even split on the matter and thus far whenever it has been put directly to the electorate without a gerrymandering filter anti-abortion proportions have been decisively voted down.

 

[Margaret3110]

Except I don't think it is. Those same Christians carried their attitudes forward when they gained power and used said power in explicitly Christian fashion. Nor did they see a contradiction in this.

You said

"Yes they were subject to Roman rule but they were not subservient to it. They recognized the legal authority of Rome but still treated Rome as an enemy, something you didn't collude with or bend the knee too in all instances. Christians who did do what Rome wanted, such as in the case of sacrificing to the gods, were literally expelled from the Churches and excommunicated. Christians understood themselves as fundamentally alien from Rome."

I recognize the legal authority of my country, but I consider myself alien from it and subject to God first and foremost. I have never been asked by my government to deny Christ or sacrifice to foreign gods, though, have you?

 

[Isilwen]

Liberal democratic safetynets are also one of the key reasons why society and breaking down and atomizing the individual. By taking on all responsibilities local communities and organizations like Churches once fulfilled we are seeing a vastly expansive state and the destruction of institutions like family and community.

That's because someone had to do it. The churches were starting to stop doing it. My ex-wife and I when we were married needed help, we called Catholic charities and other religious organizations for that help. The only answer we got was no, we cannot help you.

So, I will stand by my statement that these safety nets are needed since very few churches want to do it anymore, the government has to and I am thankful that they are. I say we need more. We need universal healthcare.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That's because someone had to do it. The churches were starting to stop doing it. My ex-wife and I when we were married needed help, we called Catholic charities and other religious organizations for that help. The only answer we got was no, we cannot help you.

So, I will stand by my statement that these safety nets are needed since very few churches want to do it anymore, the government has to and I am thankful that they are.

Churches will only continue to stop doing it as the secular state assumes those functions. Then we as Christians wonder why the Church as a social institution is failing. The answer is fairly obvious, the function has been replaced by the secular state which has far more resources than any Church. Not that I think Churches shouldn't help, but in the future it will only have to be Christians helping each other for the time being.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I recognize the legal authority of my country, but I consider myself alien from it and subject to God first and foremost. I have never been asked by my government to deny Christ or sacrifice to foreign gods, though, have you?

I am only contesting you have the same attitude. Your attitude is not like the early Christians who didn't see the same thing as you do when Christians are in power. They actually expected Emperors and Kings to be Christian and enact Christian moral reform into law/society. This is why they shut down pagan temples and outlawed pagan sacrifice.

 

[Margaret3110]

I am only contesting you have the same attitude. Your attitude is not like the early Christians who didn't see the same thing as you do when Christians are in power. They actually expected Emperors and Kings to be Christian and enact Christian moral reform into law/society. This is why they shut down pagan temples and outlawed pagan sacrifice.

When did they do that? Are you talking about Constantine?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

If we're using the legal term murder there is no debate about it being murder, it's not. No place in the US classes abortion as murder even where there are near total bans on abortion it's not classed as murder or even homicide by the law.

After decades of screaming about murder, genocide, slaughter, they get the power to change the law and loose their nerve.

Again you're basing your definition of murder on US law and not on what Jesus views as taking a life.

 

[GodLovesCats]

The USA supports abortion and considers it morally neutral right?

American support every citizen's rights to "life, liberty, and property." This phrase was written three times in the Constitution. They also believe in the right to privacy, which is covered din the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.

Morally, most Americans support exceptions for rape and incest pregnancies, but some state laws do not have them. Nearly everyone agrees abortion is always moral if necessary to save the mother's life.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I never assumed I know what Jesus thinks of abortion is the same as mine or remotely implied I do.

I know that verse. It still does not in any way give you the right to call girls and women who choose abortion "murderers" or make the unborn life any more important than the woman herself.

If it's the label you don't like, what would you call someone who takes the life of a child?

 

[Margaret3110]

I am only contesting you have the same attitude. Your attitude is not like the early Christians who didn't see the same thing as you do when Christians are in power. They actually expected Emperors and Kings to be Christian and enact Christian moral reform into law/society. This is why they shut down pagan temples and outlawed pagan sacrifice.

Do you think we should make the practice of other religions, such as Judaism and Islam, illegal?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

When did they do that? Are you talking about Constantine?

I'm talking in general when Christians actually came into power. Their attitude was not one of viewing Christianity as being completely separated from power.

 

[Isilwen]

Churches will only continue to stop doing it as the secular state assumes those functions.

What I am saying is that if the churches hadn't started to stop doing it, the government wouldn't have stepped in.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Do you think we should make the practice of other religions, such as Judaism and Islam, illegal?

I think that is an impractical position that would lead to bloodshed were it accomplished. I do think predominantly Christian communities should be allowed to advocate for their interests first and not accept the premise of a liberal/egalitarian society. In that way, a country like the UK stopping Islamic migration into it would be fine in my perspective.

 

[Margaret3110]

I think that is an impractical position that would lead to bloodshed were it accomplished. I do think predominantly Christian communities should be allowed to advocate for their interests first and not accept the premise of a liberal/egalitarian society. In that way, a country like the UK stopping Islamic migration into it would be fine in my perspective.

But your ideal is forcing people to practice your religion. Not letting them make that choice for themselves. That ... says everything.

I think I'm done with this conversation.