Can Pastors Live Too Extravagantly?

GregoryTurner · Mar 24, 2008

Matthew 23:23

Woe to you, scribes and Phariseesm hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
[24] Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

GregoryTurner · Mar 24, 2008

FaithLikeARock said:
Money on ministry is fine.

Money on a big screen TV that you make from that ministry? Not so much.

Why not a big screen TV, a 4 horse trailer to carry my kids to 4h meetings, a truck to pull that trailer, or even a nice home? Am I not allowed to live the same way as those in my congregation? I personally do not have a big screen TV because I do not watch much tv. I do not drive a nice vehicle. I do not get to go eat at resturants etc etc.

But, are those that are being downed in this thread being asked if they would give up everything? I wonder if they would. I cannot help but wonder if God has given them these things because of their obedience. There is a cultural difference between Paul and the apostles vs those of today. If they were disobedient, would their ministry fail under the hand of God?

Just pondering....

Celticflower · Mar 24, 2008

I think there is nothing wrong with you living as well as your congregation. But if you were to live better than your congregation, and the rest of the community around you, then it might be time to re-examine priorities.

BTW Greg -- it sounds like you are using (and will continue to use) your resources well and I wish you well with your ministry.

Celticflower · Mar 24, 2008

I think there is nothing wrong with you living as well as your congregation. But if you were to live better than your congregation, and the rest of the community around you, then it might be time to re-examine priorities.

BTW Greg -- it sounds like you are using (and will continue to use) your resources well and I wish you well with your ministry.

dies-l · Mar 24, 2008

Hagnismos said:
More often than not the people struggle to come up with 10% and then feel horribly guilty about it (or not.) But I agree with you whole heartedly the NT does not bind us to a tithe.

I know that this is the wrong thread for this question, but it begs to be asked. Where exactly does this notion come from that tithing is somehow contrary to NT teaching? If anything the NT seems to suggest that the ideal is that we give 100%. Still, as a more realistic figure, I see nothing to suggest that the OT tithe is not foundation for determining your giving. I would agree that the general idea of the OT is that we should not do anything out of obligation, but rather, as followers of Jesus, we should want to do what God asks. But, I don't see any indication that God is not longer asking us to tithe (as a bare minimum). I would appreciate some insight into this, if possible, without completely derailing the thread (If it goes beyond one or two posts, perhaps this should be a new thread).

Hagnismos · Mar 24, 2008

Dies3l said:
I know that this is the wrong thread for this question, but it begs to be asked. Where exactly does this notion come from that tithing is somehow contrary to NT teaching? If anything the NT seems to suggest that the ideal is that we give 100%. Still, as a more realistic figure, I see nothing to suggest that the OT tithe is not foundation for determining your giving. I would agree that the general idea of the OT is that we should not do anything out of obligation, but rather, as followers of Jesus, we should want to do what God asks. But, I don't see any indication that God is not longer asking us to tithe (as a bare minimum). I would appreciate some insight into this, if possible, without completely derailing the thread (If it goes beyond one or two posts, perhaps this should be a new thread).

There is no explicit admonishment to tithe in the New Testament. Some say that Jesus' statement to the Pharisees about that they ought to have tithed not forgetting righteousness first is often quoted, but he is speaking about a different covenant. 100%? Even the Lord understands that we need to buy food and clothes, housing, transportation etc. We should not worry about those things if we are serving God. The closest the Bible comes is in Paul's discussion in Corinthians about money. He seems to feel that we ought to give within our means and/or to that level we feel comfortable with. I think you know who is serving God when they willingly commit to give regularly and at a set level. You could argue that regular giving is an act of love for God and the church because we all get paid regularly, should the pastor have to wonder how much is going to come in this month? If someone is a member can't they at least agree to set aside a certain amount? I think it is easier from the pastor's perspective if we all just give 10% and that is why you hear it preached so much. I can't know your argument for sure but perhaps you were suggesting that tithing should just be continued because there is no explicit statement saying believers should have stopped tithing. Giving, ceremonies, foods, fasting, all of these things probably fall under the area of Christian liberties that we ought not to judge one another for. I am a grown man I understand that if I am going to support a mininstry I need to make a commitment and making sure it is well within my means makes sense for both sides of the equation. I do not spend extravagantly, but neither am I rich. As God blesses me with more I will give more. No minister led of God should worry about finances, I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging for bread.

Hagnismos · Mar 24, 2008

GregoryTurner said:
Why not a big screen TV, a 4 horse trailer to carry my kids to 4h meetings, a truck to pull that trailer, or even a nice home? Am I not allowed to live the same way as those in my congregation? I personally do not have a big screen TV because I do not watch much tv. I do not drive a nice vehicle. I do not get to go eat at resturants etc etc.

But, are those that are being downed in this thread being asked if they would give up everything? I wonder if they would. I cannot help but wonder if God has given them these things because of their obedience. There is a cultural difference between Paul and the apostles vs those of today. If they were disobedient, would their ministry fail under the hand of God?

Just pondering....

I don't really see alot of people being downed in this thread. Definitely if your congregation is well funded you should expect to make whatever your conscience in the sight of God will allow. It's called Christian liberty. But it is the call of God that is important. Suppose the Lord called you to somewhere where all they could promise was an old shack and a chance to work in the fields alongside them in the day before preaching to a packed house every night? I believe the terms conscience and liberty cover nearly every dispute we see about giving.

LogosRhema · Mar 24, 2008

Also if you are trust with little the Lord will entrust you with much? Also, what if I sell a best selling book as a Pastor? Am I to be condemned because of the millions it is making? It'd be a blessing, and yes accordingly, if the best seller was in accordance to bringing glory to God, then that money is not mine. Even the money I have now is not mine. So what difference does it make if a pastor makes loads of cash or makes little? So long as he's a faithful pastor...

Jet_A_Jockey · Mar 24, 2008

LogosRhema said:
Also if you are trust with little the Lord will entrust you with much? Also, what if I sell a best selling book as a Pastor? Am I to be condemned because of the millions it is making? It'd be a blessing, and yes accordingly, if the best seller was in accordance to bringing glory to God, then that money is not mine. Even the money I have now is not mine. So what difference does it make if a pastor makes loads of cash or makes little? So long as he's a faithful pastor...

The difference is made when someone has personal bodyguards, and climbs off of a jet that costs more than a small country, and then preaches about how everyone needs to send in money to help those in need.

It's not about being well off, its about being extravagant, and putting yourself before others.

Joey21 · Mar 25, 2008

You know how God allowed the enemy to take all of Jobs richies and Job still did not fall away from God. Dont you think that maybe this can happen with the paster but instead the other way around..? They are given richies..

GregoryTurner · Mar 25, 2008

Hagnismos said:
I don't really see alot of people being downed in this thread. Definitely if your congregation is well funded you should expect to make whatever your conscience in the sight of God will allow. It's called Christian liberty. But it is the call of God that is important. Suppose the Lord called you to somewhere where all they could promise was an old shack and a chance to work in the fields alongside them in the day before preaching to a packed house every night? I believe the terms conscience and liberty cover nearly every dispute we see about giving.

I should rephrase my post. Those that are on tv... have they been asked to give up everything? I wonder if they would?

jiminpa · Mar 25, 2008

Joey21 said:
You know how God allowed the enemy to take all of Jobs richies and Job still did not fall away from God. Dont you think that maybe this can happen with the paster but instead the other way around..? They are given richies..

What was Job's condition after the trial? God gave him twice as much as before. But some here expect their pastors to tell God to go take a leap if He wants to give them things.

Levahddi · Mar 28, 2008

It is my opinion that the job of the Pastor is important enough to merit being a full time job(when possible) and also should be a position that is paid for: probably along the lines of the average income for whatever the congregation's average is.

Hagnismos · Mar 28, 2008

Levahddi said:
It is my opinion that the job of the Pastor is important enough to merit being a full time job(when possible) and also should be a position that is paid for: probably along the lines of the average income for whatever the congregation's average is.

I like that idea. I really think that pastor has to be led by God in negotiating a contract. Liberty and conscience, for some congregations not taking everything they offer you might be the way God helps you show them where the priorities should lie, or the opposite within reason. The poor are already burdened by their poverty, James made sure to tell Paul that the Jerusalem council wished for the poor to be cared for. And he agreed as he took their blessing and acknowledgement of his ministry to the Gentiles.

GregoryTurner · Mar 28, 2008

Pastors, leaders, etc should be compensated for their time. They have to eat too. However, they do need to be accountable so that those in the congregation know that their leaders are not using the "church" finance for their own personal piggy bank.

LogosRhema · Mar 30, 2008

I plan on becoming a full time pastor sometime in my 30's.. I have no plans what so ever as to taking ANYthing from the tithe, but at the same time I'll have a business established by then and I'll be earning my income just like everyone else... Noone can complain rofl. Besides, I honestly don't want to stick my hand into the offering bag... None of my business.

GregoryTurner · Mar 30, 2008

LogosRhema said:
I plan on becoming a full time pastor sometime in my 30's.. I have no plans what so ever as to taking ANYthing from the tithe, but at the same time I'll have a business established by then and I'll be earning my income just like everyone else... Noone can complain rofl. Besides, I honestly don't want to stick my hand into the offering bag... None of my business.

My question is how can you be a full-time pastor if you have a business to run? Will you be able to go to a congregation member's home @ 2am or 9am? In order to be full-time, you have to be available at all times.

Please do not get me wrong, I'm all for pastoring the way you are describing, however I hope that your business will enable you to be available for any sudden circumstance that may arise, that is all I am saying.

Jet_A_Jockey · Mar 30, 2008

I think that a pastor should lead by example. In doing so properly, everything else will fall into place.

LogosRhema · Mar 30, 2008

GregoryTurner said:
My question is how can you be a full-time pastor if you have a business to run? Will you be able to go to a congregation member's home @ 2am or 9am? In order to be full-time, you have to be available at all times.

Please do not get me wrong, I'm all for pastoring the way you are describing, however I hope that your business will enable you to be available for any sudden circumstance that may arise, that is all I am saying.

It's fine. By the time I would studying to become a Pastor my business, in theory, will be able to take care of itself with the staff I have in mind hiring. Guess we'll see eh? I'll cross that bridge after I burn the others

Angel4Truth · Apr 1, 2008

If a set salary is agreed upon by the congregation and the books are open to the members - I dont begrudge one cent the pastor makes. Being a pastor is a full time job and then some. Being a good pastor should be compensated imo well beyond a corporate CEO - this world is backward.

Can Pastors Live Too Extravagantly?

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