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I am not sure. I don’t judge the entirety of someone’s theology based on one or two threads.Okay, so just when I do it. Thanks, real helpful.
I am not sure. I don’t judge the entirety of someone’s theology based on one or two threads.
because the thread is basically “this is how I read these verses because this is how I read these other verses.” I accept other things from other people when they back them up, even if I don’t agree eventually.What is the fundamental thing you reject from my thread? It can't be based on tradition since you accept things from Judaism and Protestants.
I have, but it doesn’t since it’s just you. 2000ish years of theological writing you could have given something.You have not even analyzed whether my argument holds weight. The only reason you gave is that it is not already part of your tradition which conflicts with you accepting what people outside your tradition say about things.
so, clearly it’s not simply because something originated outside of Orthodoxy. it’s because all it was, was your personal exegesis with nothing there to support your point, aside from more of your personal exegesis. if that works for you, fine. it doesn’t for me. if there was something else to it, well I might agree and at least it would give me something to chew on.I'm both angered and insulted that you can't even consider what I am saying because it isn't based on your tradition when you accept things outside of your tradition elsewhere.
so, clearly it’s not simply because something originated outside of Orthodoxy. it’s because all it was, was your personal exegesis with nothing there to support your point, aside from more of your personal exegesis. if that works for you, fine. it doesn’t for me. if there was something else to it, well I might agree and at least it would give me something to chew on.
it’s not the verses, it’s the commentary in between I disagree with.It's not just my opinion. Most of the thread is just me citing verses that all say the same thing I am saying. You can say that those verses don't say what you think I am saying they do, but you have not actually done any exegesis to show I am wrong. You've just said I am wrong from the get-go because you have not seen this argument before. I'm not the first person to come up with this argument; I've just expanded on it.
sure I do.You don't have any reason to reject what I am saying.
of which the Bible is the main partAll you have is tradition.
no, I put it over your logic and reasoning.So you put tradition over logic and reasoning.
and since you are fallen, you can come to the wrong conclusion. as can we all.In short, I don't care about what my personal opinion is on this. I am trying to DEDUCE what the scriptures say.
I don’t follow thisI was thinking there might be a chance you would like what I was saying since it falls in line so well with the Orthodox church having a hierarchy in Chruch government.
no, I have. I wasn’t always Orthodox. I used to make these arguments.But you reject that because you haven't seen this argument before. So even though the view actually aligns more with your tradition than Protestant tradition, you still reject it.
it’s because you still think there is some dichotomy between the Bible and tradition, even after I said there isn’t.What I am most angry about is that you have not even tried to correct me and give the Orthodox understanding of these verses. You just tell me I am wrong. There is no explanation you have other than tradition. Understand how frustrating that is for me as a Protestant who believes that the Bible is the inspired word of God, not like you care about that.
it’s not a debate. and no you didn’t. my problem isn’t Scripture. it’s how you read it. and it’s not really my problem at all.Honestly, the debate should already be over. I already proved you wrong that scripture is God's words from the mouth of Jesus. Your problem is not me, it is scripture which goes against your tradition or so that is how I see it.
and since you are fallen, you can come to the wrong conclusion. as can we all.
it’s because you still think there is some dichotomy between the Bible and tradition, even after I said there isn’t.
it’s not the verses, it’s the commentary in between I disagree with.
because the gates of hades will not prevail against the Church. the Church is the Body and Bride of Christ.I see zero reason why we collectively as a Church cannot err and have the same proneness to err as individuals.
no, I did way back, but I will do it again. tradition means that which is handed down. since neither of us wrote the Bible, the Bible was handed down to us from earlier generations, it by definition, is tradition.Yes, you said it. You didn't back it up with anything other than your opinion, just like you are accusing me of.
I don’t have anything secret. I do however know enough to know that language has nuance. something written in 1st century Greek is going to have nuance that a 21st century English speaker isn’t going to know just from the English. this is what JWs try to do and fail at.Which, as of yet, I have no idea how you interpret those verses. So if you have some secret way you interpret the pronouns used throughout the NT then now is as good a time as any to tell me how you interpret I, me, we, our, us, you, and your, etc.
because the gates of hades will not prevail against the Church. the Church is the Body and Bride of Christ.
no, I did way back, but I will do it again. tradition means that which is handed down. since neither of us wrote the Bible, the Bible was handed down to us from earlier generations, it by definition, is tradition.
I don’t have anything secret. I do however know enough to know that language has nuance. something written in 1st century Greek is going to have nuance that a 21st century English speaker isn’t going to know just from the English. this is what JWs try to do and fail at.
yes, that remnant is the Church. even when in the extreme minority. plus, if Christ is the head of the Church, He’s pretty absent if He let’s it err.Where does that say that the Chruch cannot err? It does not say that at all. Rather, what I am drawing from it is that there will always be a remnant and the church will never be completely snuffed out.
sure, that’s why I rely on the Church and not myselfYour exegesis is poor.
I don’t deny the Bible is special. it’s absolutely special. it’s the most honored text within the tradition. saying it’s a unique part of a larger whole is not denying it’s uniqueness.Then you deny that the Bible is special. You deny that the Bible is God's words to humanity.
sure, that’s why I rely on the Church and not myself
and, according to the Bible, Christ is God’s word to humanity.
thanks for this. I don’t have my NPNF off hand, but I will get back to you with answers.I'll help you. Maybe you have an answer, maybe you don't.
The word in question is ἡμῖν which means "us" unless you have a different definition. The verse in Greek says,
γνωρίσας ἡμῖν τὸ μυστήριον τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ, κατὰ τὴν εὐδοκίαν αὐτοῦ ἣν προέθετο ἐν αὐτῷ
The question, then, is who is the "us" in this verse (Ephesians 1:9)? Is it Paul included with the Ephesians? Then why does it say,
Ephesians 1:12
"so that we who had already put our hope in Christ might bring praise to his glory." and this is contrasted with,
Ephesians 1:13
"In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed."?
it isn’t, but when folks err they are corrected by the Church or cut off from the Church. the Church doesn’t err because Christ still guides the Church.The Chruch is made of individuals who are prone to error just like yourself. Why do you think that the Chruch is this monolithic thing that exists separate from individuals?
neither of those verses equate the Word with the written text.But that is not what I am saying. I am saying the Bible is God's words to humanity. It is more than just the Word of God. It is God's words. That is why Christ says scripture is "from the mouth of God," (2 Chr. 35:22; Matt. 4:4).
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