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Here is a link that explain Torah and Slavery from Jewish source:By not being Hebrew. That's how.
"This poor man cries out and G‑d listens." You may not have thought about this, but those may just be the most radical, subversive and revolutionary words in history. Whereas the kings and priests of old would have their subjects believe that life is a grand chain of command with yours truly on top and you scum on the bottom, this idea of personal prayer flattened all hierarchies: Everyone is equally close to the top of the ladder.
Are you sure you're responding to the right poster?Here is a link that explain Torah and Slavery from Jewish source:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/305549/jewish/Torah-Slavery-and-the-Jews.htm
Very interesting read, and below is a summary.
No, actually contrary to popular belief even among Christians the bible does not allow involuntary slavery of foreigners even under the Old Covenant of the Hebrew theocracy except POWs. Read Deut. 25:17 and Exodus 22:21-24. And Leviticus 19:33-34 where they are commanded to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow Hebrews. And just like their neighbor Hebrews they were allowed to sell themselves during hard times see Leviticus 25:47.And, like so many apologists, you seem to conveniently 'forget' the situation of the FOREIGNERS who were enslaved! All that you have described above pertains to HEBREW slaves only (not that their lives were a bed of roses either). Now please explain what you understand about the slaves that "you may purchase from the foreigners around you".
He does not endorse slavery see post 44. But even if He did you have no rationally objective basis for condemning Him because you have no real universal moral standard to judge by. So REAL objective morality cannot exist without the Christian God.Then it's off topic.
This thread deals with if morality can exist without god, and it appeared in the ethics and morality forum.
Since your god endorses slavery in his holy book, I would argue that morality exists despite your god.
Yes. In Leviticus and Exodus primarily.
Leviticus 25 makes it very clear as to the difference between the treatment for "brother" Jews and "foreigners" when it comes to slavery.....
sb: "If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: 40 he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. 41 Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. 42 For they are my servants,[e] whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. 43 You shall not rule over him ruthlessly but shall fear your God. 44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with
you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
sb: So, here we see that the fate of a foreign slave is immediately more dire than a Hebrew. The foreign slave will be a "possession forever", whereas Hebrews will have a limited 'tenure'. Like any other property, they can be passed on to the next generation.....like a chair or table.
sb: Exodus deals with the treatment of slaves and here again you only choose to focus on the 'nicer bits'.........
Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone.5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.
sb: 7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her[b] for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
sb: 20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
sb: 26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.
No, see my explanations above, how you are ignoring the context that the stranger is to be treated the same as the Hebrew.sb: You can see that there is quite a difference. Hebrews can be enslaved for a fixed period only, unless of course the master tries the nasty trick of "giving" a wife to the slave, knowing that the man may well fall in love with this woman and then be forced to make a very serious choice at the end of his enslavement. So compassionate!
And verse 7 begins "When a man sells his daughter as a slave...." Need any more be said!?
No, actually contrary to popular belief even among Christians the bible does not allow involuntary slavery of foreigners even under the Old Covenant of the Hebrew theocracy except POWs. Read Deut. 25:17 and Exodus 22:21-24. And Leviticus 19:33-34 where they are commanded to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow Hebrews. And just like their neighbor Hebrews they were allowed to sell themselves during hard times see Leviticus 25:47.
And I explained to you that the hebrews treated slaves rather well.
Many chose to become slaves in order to have their needs met.
Some slaves were given great responsibilities and authority.
So to say that the slavery is "just as racist and brutal as modern day slavery" is flat out incorrect because nobody was enslaved by hebrews because of their race and they did not live in the harsh conditions as you probably expect. The reason why the Hebrew treated their slaves so well was because the Hebrews claimed to have been slaves themselves while in Egypt.
Hmm, When we say the word morals we must define what is good or bad.
An unchanging outside of earth morale giver.
He does not endorse slavery see post 44.
But even if He did you have no rationally objective basis for condemning Him because you have no real universal moral standard to judge by.
So REAL objective morality cannot exist without the Christian God.
Ehm.. I think the discussion should be about OBJECTIVE morality.
....
Because when its changing. It's just relative. It's every bodies opinion. There is no good or bad it was just that generations opinion.So why is that required for morality?
Because when its changing. It's just relative. It's every bodies opinion. There is no good or bad it was just that generations opinion.
Morality is a man made concept if it is changing. (relative) Who is to say what it is ?
No, actually contrary to popular belief even among Christians the bible does not allow involuntary slavery of foreigners even under the Old Covenant of the Hebrew theocracy except POWs. Read Deut. 25:17 and Exodus 22:21-24. And Leviticus 19:33-34 where they are commanded to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow Hebrews.
And just like their neighbor Hebrews they were allowed to sell themselves during hard times see Leviticus 25:47.
Who is this "we" you are talking about?WE are to say! Just as we have always done.
Who is this "we" you are talking about?
WE are to say! Just as we have always done.
So what if someone disagreed with what others believe to be right or wrong?You, me, our neighbours, our community. We have always been the arbiters of what is considered to be right and wrong.
And that consideration has changed over time, sometimes very slowly, sometimes exceedingly fast. But WE are the ones who decide.
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