Can marriage ever be a sin if both are Christian

The Liturgist · Jun 24, 2024

The Orthodox Church will not perform more than two remarriages for any person, for any reason. The idea of a fourth marriage or of the kind of frequent remarriage we see in noted 20th century figures is abhorrent to us.

mikeforjesus · Jun 25, 2024

I believe the easiest path to go directly to heaven and to please God is to be single for the kingdom of heaven sake to serve it that that is what christ said that some have made themselves eunuch for the kingdom of heaven sake that you can still be saved if you marry but such a path is less fruitful and makes it harder to reach heaven directly if you die before getting married if you are distracted by earthly cares or to go to heaven at all incase seeking to preach when it is possible is required whether married or not though it may be sufficient to just acknowledge christ before some and there being evidence one was christian to preach to them afterwards by action and not deny when asked ever to die that way not repenting to do what one can or to die because of that which may be too late to repent so I think is better for me to be single to focus on christ and reaching others with gospel and going to heaven directly.

mikeforjesus · Jul 2, 2024

I decided I will seek to marry as then others can blame me and not respect what I sacrifice anything which may be hinderance to my preaching to judge that I did not even try.

This was posted on facebook and I did not like comments

mikeforjesus · Jul 3, 2024

I decided not to care for such mockers that it is their fault to judge because not successful that they dont have to follow me if they think such is wrong they can get married but the bible does not teach one has to marry so is their fault that if they think that it is important to focus on my goal to be more helpful to save souls in not being selfish to show care to others who did not marry earlier for their own reasons so I will not seek to get married but I will focus on preaching the gospel and seeking to follow Him.

mikeforjesus · Jul 6, 2024

I decided I will seek to marry as such is better as should encourage more christians to to be fruitful and by marrying should help some others marry when others see it was wrong to do bad to others and should be encouraged that God wants more christians to marry that it ensures to increase though they dont have to and I think others should understand as sacrificing yourself does no difference as others married and because there are many christians judgemental to christian couples who are not perfect and to have example of hopefully succesful marriage where forgiveness is practiced is good witness to contend with those who seek to divorce and I think this is supported in God saying it is not good for man to be alone and he who finds a wife finds a good thing and blessed is he who has quiver of children.

Grip Docility · Jul 6, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
The bible says as it was in the days of Noah they were marrying and giving in marriage and did not know until the flood came and took them all away so it will be when the son of man returns

In the days of Noah marriage was a sin because sons of God married daughters of men that is the non spiritual people

I thought marriage is never a sin if person is Christian as Paul said he who marries has not sinned but such will have trouble in the flesh

But could it be a sin if the other person possibility may not be a true Christian if they are not of similar background to atleast be born in Christian family though it is possible one is a Christian if one is not

What other situations is it a sin ?

But how can it take them by surprise if Christ will come after the tribulation do you think some will not even believe they are in the tribulation because how then can it take them by surprise ?

My dad says when Paul says in the last days people will forbid marriage it means because people will live together without getting married I don’t think however it is necessary to get married and have kids you may not raise in God if one is not spiritual but this means people should not sin and if they do they must repent

I am convinced now that I should not marry because it may not work out my father thought it was good for me though I don’t have to and my grandfather
my dads father told me before he died he wanted me to get married but my father said I don’t have to listen to him if I thought it was good and I was able to do something for the Lord I would think to get married but I think being single is being more profitable for the Lord the barren has more children than one who is married because you should not make people feel they have to get married which being single is maybe more safe and good for some and you don’t know if you will meet one suitable

unless I am convinced being married is good if I meet one suitable I don’t think I should get married

Brother,

Please listen very closely, do not abide by the spirit that is oppressing you. I have scriptural grounds to implore this to you. Brother, I BEG YOU, please read this entire passage of scripture. It should settle your concern.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared. 3 They forbid marriage and demand abstinence from foods that God created to be received with gratitude by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing should be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 since it is sanctified by the word of God and by prayer.

Reject the spirit that is oppressing you! I eagerly await your response.

mikeforjesus · Jul 6, 2024

Thankyou I do seek to marry now but may find it difficult to find one who will accept me as I am not working yet much in a job.

Grip Docility · Jul 6, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
Thankyou I do seek to marry now but may find it difficult to find one who will accept me as I am not working yet much in a job.

Amen! I implore you one more piece of advice. Fall in Love with one with a Beautiful, Loving, Forgiving, Merciful, Kind Spirit. Fall in Love with one for her Heart (Soul). That beauty never fades. I mean this with all of my heart!

mikeforjesus · Jul 6, 2024

Thankyou I will be seeking one with those qualities in her character

The Liturgist · Jul 7, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Amen! I implore you one more piece of advice. Fall in Love with one with a Beautiful, Loving, Forgiving, Merciful, Kind Spirit. Fall in Love with one for her Heart (Soul). That beauty never fades. I mean this with all of my heart!

Of course, it should be stressed that the New Testament makes it clear that virginity and Holy Celibacy are not only acceptable ways of living, but highly desirable, and if someone voluntarily decides to pursue holy celibacy, no one is forbidding them to marry.

In the Orthodox Church, the majority of our priests are married, as are a small minority of our bishops (mostly chorepiscopi, or choir bishops), but those who want to pursue a life of celibacy, who are called to it, are able to do so. I myself have been contemplating a monastic vocation, although increasingly I am leaning away from it simply because too many of my loved ones have died, and within the monastic environment while normally one’s brethren within the monastery are extremely loving, one cannot always count on that, depending on where one elects to serve, and marriage seems to offer a way of obtaining new ones. Additionally there is the fact that none of my cousins has had children, so it would seem that if I don’t marry, my entire maternal family line could die off, and additionally, the last name of my paternal family line would die off.

However, I do love monasticism and make monastic retreats as often as possible. However, if you go to a typical Orthodox monastery, like St. Anthony’s, the monks who have chosen to be there have families, not just of their own relatives, but of spiritual children, that is to say, people who come to the monastery to visit with them, and its very beautiful. They have sublimated their sexual desire and instead provide love to everyone in a selfless manner, and it is entirely voluntary.

Now, in the Middle Ages through the early 20th century, the Roman Catholic church operated convents in which the unwanted daughters, and in some cases the mentally ill daughters, of various middle and upper class families were placed, often against their will - and Martin Luther did quite a good thing in liberating some nuns from such a convent. It is imperative that anyone who is in a monastery or convent be there willingly. Another disturbing thing for me has been the association of some Roman Catholic religous orders with flagellation. This is strictly prohibited in the Orthodox Church. If a clergyman, even with a rank as low as doorkeeper, strikes someone in order to attempt to bring about repentance, they are automatically deposed according to ancient canon law. Orthodox clergy are not allowed to do a few things, such as engage in extramarital affairs, engage in financial advice, have themselves castrated without medical necessity, and hit people, and also kill someone, obviously. These events disqualify someone from ordination and also disqualify ordained clergy from further service or cause them to be deposed (laicized).

Now, it should also be noted what Scripture was referring to when it spoke of groups that forbade people to marry, since the Roman church at the time had not yet developed into what it would later become under the influence of Scholastic theology, especially after the Great Schism in 1054 when the Roman Catholics excommunicated the Eastern Orthodox for refusing to accept Papal Supremacy.

There were, at the time Scripture was written, heretical sects that mandated celibacy or, in one case, a particularly unpleasant Gnostic sect that probably appeared after the Bible was written, did not mandate celibacy but did forbid having children, and one can see where that was going. Among the Jews, the Essenes were such a sect, that is quite well known. But similar sects quickly sprang up within Christianity, mostly derivatives of the initial Gnostic sect founded by Simon Magus. A prevailing theme in these dualist religions was Docetism, that Christ only appeared to be human, and also dualism insofar as the flesh and the material world was evil, and therefore having children in the material world was akin to trapping them in a prison, which is quite absurd. Additionally these religions commonly regarded God in the Old Testament as being different from the God of the New Testament, which is also absurd based on the content of scripture, so rather than deal with that, they either modified the New Testament to suit their doctrines (Marcion did this), or else they wrote their own scriptures, such as the Tripartite Tractate, the Pistis Sophia, the “Gospel of Judas” and other heretical texts, which are as bad as they sound.

So we should absolutely not forbid anyone to marry - the marriage bed is undefiled - but at the same time we should also not forbid anyone to engage in celibacy. in Pharisaical and Rabinnical Judaism, Holy Celibacy is not recognized, rather, one is obliged to get married, whereas this is not the case in Christianity and never has been. So for those people who discern a monastic vocation, they should be free to pursue it.

Grip Docility · Jul 7, 2024

The Liturgist said:
Of course, it should be stressed that the New Testament makes it clear that virginity and Holy Celibacy are not only acceptable ways of living, but highly desirable, and if someone voluntarily decides to pursue holy celibacy, no one is forbidding them to marry.

In the Orthodox Church, the majority of our priests are married, as are a small minority of our bishops (mostly chorepiscopi, or choir bishops), but those who want to pursue a life of celibacy, who are called to it, are able to do so. I myself have been contemplating a monastic vocation, although increasingly I am leaning away from it simply because too many of my loved ones have died, and within the monastic environment while normally one’s brethren within the monastery are extremely loving, one cannot always count on that, depending on where one elects to serve, and marriage seems to offer a way of obtaining new ones. Additionally there is the fact that none of my cousins has had children, so it would seem that if I don’t marry, my entire maternal family line could die off, and additionally, the last name of my paternal family line would die off.

However, I do love monasticism and make monastic retreats as often as possible. However, if you go to a typical Orthodox monastery, like St. Anthony’s, the monks who have chosen to be there have families, not just of their own relatives, but of spiritual children, that is to say, people who come to the monastery to visit with them, and its very beautiful. They have sublimated their sexual desire and instead provide love to everyone in a selfless manner, and it is entirely voluntary.

Now, in the Middle Ages through the early 20th century, the Roman Catholic church operated convents in which the unwanted daughters, and in some cases the mentally ill daughters, of various middle and upper class families were placed, often against their will - and Martin Luther did quite a good thing in liberating some nuns from such a convent. It is imperative that anyone who is in a monastery or convent be there willingly. Another disturbing thing for me has been the association of some Roman Catholic religous orders with flagellation. This is strictly prohibited in the Orthodox Church. If a clergyman, even with a rank as low as doorkeeper, strikes someone in order to attempt to bring about repentance, they are automatically deposed according to ancient canon law. Orthodox clergy are not allowed to do a few things, such as engage in extramarital affairs, engage in financial advice, have themselves castrated without medical necessity, and hit people, and also kill someone, obviously. These events disqualify someone from ordination and also disqualify ordained clergy from further service or cause them to be deposed (laicized).

Now, it should also be noted what Scripture was referring to when it spoke of groups that forbade people to marry, since the Roman church at the time had not yet developed into what it would later become under the influence of Scholastic theology, especially after the Great Schism in 1054 when the Roman Catholics excommunicated the Eastern Orthodox for refusing to accept Papal Supremacy.

There were, at the time Scripture was written, heretical sects that mandated celibacy or, in one case, a particularly unpleasant Gnostic sect that probably appeared after the Bible was written, did not mandate celibacy but did forbid having children, and one can see where that was going. Among the Jews, the Essenes were such a sect, that is quite well known. But similar sects quickly sprang up within Christianity, mostly derivatives of the initial Gnostic sect founded by Simon Magus. A prevailing theme in these dualist religions was Docetism, that Christ only appeared to be human, and also dualism insofar as the flesh and the material world was evil, and therefore having children in the material world was akin to trapping them in a prison, which is quite absurd. Additionally these religions commonly regarded God in the Old Testament as being different from the God of the New Testament, which is also absurd based on the content of scripture, so rather than deal with that, they either modified the New Testament to suit their doctrines (Marcion did this), or else they wrote their own scriptures, such as the Tripartite Tractate, the Pistis Sophia, the “Gospel of Judas” and other heretical texts, which are as bad as they sound.

So we should absolutely not forbid anyone to marry - the marriage bed is undefiled - but at the same time we should also not forbid anyone to engage in celibacy. in Pharisaical and Rabinnical Judaism, Holy Celibacy is not recognized, rather, one is obliged to get married, whereas this is not the case in Christianity and never has been. So for those people who discern a monastic vocation, they should be free to pursue it.

Wow! Thank you for this! I indeed do know of the Gnosticism aspect, because a very specific matter of doctrine attempted to bury the facts that you have honestly brought forth! I do love reading about church history. My heart hurts that there are so many schisms, yet, such is mankind's way.

Your desire to serve Jesus is written all throughout your words here, which is beautiful and deeply beneficial to Jesus!

Deep Gratitude for the time it took you to share this. I assure you that I have joyfully read every word.

The Liturgist · Jul 7, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Wow! Thank you for this! I indeed do know of the Gnosticism aspect, because a very specific matter of doctrine attempted to bury the facts that you have honestly brought forth! I do love reading about church history. My heart hurts that there are so many schisms, yet, such is mankind's way.

Your desire to serve Jesus is written all throughout your words here, which is beautiful and deeply beneficial to Jesus!

Deep Gratitude for the time it took you to share this. I assure you that I have joyfully read every word.

That is very kind of you. Please pray for me, a sinner, as I have been in poor health.

By the way, you are always welcome to open a private conversation with me if you wish to learn more about Patristics or Church History or the heresies or my own favorite topic, liturgics.

If you wish I can send you some ebooks that are English translations of the ancient encyclopedias of heresies that were rejected by the early church, of which there are three, the second century Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus of Lyons, which is quoted by the fourth century Panarion, or Medicine Chest, that is to say, First Aid Kit, or St. Epiphanios the bishop of Salamis, on Cyprus, which in turn is quoted by the eighth century Fount of Knowledge by St. John of Damascus, which includes, in addition to his well known Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (which was one of the earliest works of dogmatic theology and the inspiration for later works of systematic theology such as the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin’s Institutes, and the voluminous Church Dogmatics of Karl Barth), a catalog of heresies which includes several which had not yet appeared during the lifetime of St. Epiphanios, such as Nestorianism, Iconoclasm, and interestingly enough, Islam, which was initially regarded as a heresy rather than as a separate religion.

Grip Docility · Jul 7, 2024

The Liturgist said:
That is very kind of you. Please pray for me, a sinner, as I have been in poor health.

I, a fellow sinner, will not only pray for you, but through the Holy Spirit of Christ, I am now asking for prayer without ceasing for you and your health! It made me tear up that you knew that I am a fellow servant of Him, eager to do so! Thank you!

The Liturgist said:
By the way, you are always welcome to open a private conversation with me if you wish to learn more about Patristics or Church History or the heresies or my own favorite topic, liturgics.

I may very well do so, though, I would be afraid to find out the name for things that I believe from the "heresies" side of things. Mild humor employed in hopes to make you smile.

The Liturgist said:
If you wish I can send you some ebooks that are English translations of the ancient encyclopedias of heresies that were rejected by the early church, of which there are three, the second century Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus of Lyons, which is quoted by the fourth century Panarion, or Medicine Chest, that is to say, First Aid Kit, or St. Epiphanios the bishop of Salamis, on Cyprus, which in turn is quoted by the eighth century Fount of Knowledge by St. John of Damascus, which includes, in addition to his well known Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (which was one of the earliest works of dogmatic theology and the inspiration for later works of systematic theology such as the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin’s Institutes, and the voluminous Church Dogmatics of Karl Barth), a catalog of heresies which includes several which had not yet appeared during the lifetime of St. Epiphanios, such as Nestorianism, Iconoclasm, and interestingly enough, Islam, which was initially regarded as a heresy rather than as a separate religion.

I deeply appreciate your offer! I've been convicted to only stick to Cannon and study tools. This is my place in the Body, where clearly, Jesus has found that your passion for the Body is suited knowing these matters!

I will confess, I am fairly knowledgeable about Islam. I do understand that it is "Abrahamic". I will say this one thing, I wish I would have known you when I was studying out the church schisms! You enjoy answering questions about these things, because it is one of the passions that Jesus has placed on your heart! You would have saved me quite a bit of money, time and loneliness in study!

Your kindness means so very much to me and I can't express enough that I am always appreciative to meet a Sibling in Jesus that is overtaken by Him to the point of devotion, as yourself.

The Liturgist · Jul 7, 2024

Grip Docility said:
I, a fellow sinner, will not only pray for you, but through the Holy Spirit of Christ, I am now asking for prayer without ceasing for you and your health! It made me tear up that you knew that I am a fellow servant of Him, eager to do so! Thank you!

I may very well do so, though, I would be afraid to find out the name for things that I believe from the "heresies" side of things. Mild humor employed in hopes to make you smile.

I deeply appreciate your offer! I've been convicted to only stick to Cannon and study tools. This is my place in the Body, where clearly, Jesus has found that your passion for the Body is suited knowing these matters!

I will confess, I am fairly knowledgeable about Islam. I do understand that it is "Abrahamic". I will say this one thing, I wish I would have known you when I was studying out the church schisms! You enjoy answering questions about these things, because it is one of the passions that Jesus has placed on your heart! You would have saved me quite a bit of money, time and loneliness in study!

Your kindness means so very much to me and I can't express enough that I am always appreciative to meet a Sibling in Jesus that is overtaken by Him to the point of devotion, as yourself.

Well, I would love to continue this in a conversation with you, but I can’t initiate one on my end due to your account settings.

I should also stress that I do not proselytize members to my specific denomination in conversations as my friend @MarkRohfrietsch can attest, and actually you might well enjoy meeting him at some point, as he is expert in Lutheran theology, which can be very interesting if you are of the Protestant persuasion. I myself am not concerned about your specific practice of Christianity, because my interest is in piety, which you clearly have to a large extent. Rather, I just don’t want to derail this thread with our personal conversation on the public forum.

At any rate, God bless you!

mikeforjesus · Aug 24, 2024

Though it seems wrong the catholic teaching to me no divorce due to adultery. I could accept why be with another person anyway after gave your life to one. I could accept if I find proof catholic is right in witness just to accept to be saved even if have not children but they say is sin for them to deliberately not have children when can that marriage is invalid. It is tough but if proven right would accept.

Diamond72 · Aug 24, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
say is sin for them to deliberately not have children

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that children are a gift, not a right, and that the marital act is the only moral way to conceive a child.

mikeforjesus · Aug 24, 2024

Well if what you say is true but I thought I heard from others that is not teaching but that may mean if they can’t have children it is not justification for divorce which I agree but if you can and you refuse I heard is wrong according to them but anyway even if they say is ok to refuse if you can I believe is wrong to justify people who deliberately won’t have children which I don’t agree and I won’t follow catholic church.

Diamond72 · Aug 25, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
I believe is wrong to justify people who deliberately won’t have children

Most everyone I know wants children. I can not understand why anyone would not want to have a child.

mikeforjesus · Aug 25, 2024

I agree I am not sure why you bring that up for I never disagreed.

HarleyER · Aug 25, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
The bible says as it was in the days of Noah they were marrying and giving in marriage and did not know until the flood came and took them all away so it will be when the son of man returns

In the days of Noah marriage was a sin because sons of God married daughters of men that is the non spiritual people

I thought marriage is never a sin if person is Christian as Paul said he who marries has not sinned but such will have trouble in the flesh

But could it be a sin if the other person possibility may not be a true Christian if they are not of similar background to atleast be born in Christian family though it is possible one is a Christian if one is not

What other situations is it a sin ?

But how can it take them by surprise if Christ will come after the tribulation do you think some will not even believe they are in the tribulation because how then can it take them by surprise ?

My dad says when Paul says in the last days people will forbid marriage it means because people will live together without getting married I don’t think however it is necessary to get married and have kids you may not raise in God if one is not spiritual but this means people should not sin and if they do they must repent

I am convinced now that I should not marry because it may not work out my father thought it was good for me though I don’t have to and my grandfather
my dads father told me before he died he wanted me to get married but my father said I don’t have to listen to him if I thought it was good and I was able to do something for the Lord I would think to get married but I think being single is being more profitable for the Lord the barren has more children than one who is married because you should not make people feel they have to get married which being single is maybe more safe and good for some and you don’t know if you will meet one suitable

unless I am convinced being married is good if I meet one suitable I don’t think I should get married

There are several interpretations of the "sons of God" marrying the "daughters of men". But probably the best interpretation I've heard by a Messianic Jew is that the "sons of God" actually referred to the rulers of the land who were beginning to take multiple wives ("daughters"). This explanation isn't so far fetch when one considers Psalm 82 refers to the leaders of nations as "sons of God".

So I think the best explanation for Noah's time was that it was sinful for people, in this case rulers, taking multiple wives. This was not God's design.

In your situtation, only you can decide. Just remember Paul's advice:

1 Corinthians 7:28 But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and I am trying to spare you.

You will have additional troubles but great blessings through marriage.

Can marriage ever be a sin if both are Christian

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