Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

[Messy]

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[Frogster]

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agreed, and points well made...

 

[Messy]

agreed, and points well made...

I saw something terrible, but it turned out to be not true, so I removed it again.

 

[Andrea411]

I have enjoyed the thread, thanks to all who posted, frog.

your welcome toad ….oops I mean frog...

 

[Alive_Again]

It is correct to question some things. You know that "non-Charismatics" already think what the church really possesses is just some gullible emotional thing that you can't maintain.

But "non-Charismatics" who sincerely love the Lord and would look into what a thread like this would reveal can tell if we're yielding to the "bottom feeding" instinct of the flesh. Even correction (if the people were actually here we're supposedly weighing) should be done in love.

We should always help to keep ourselves on track in this area.

We should also cross-examine things in all fairness, and not just lump "signs" into the category of "false" because they're not found in the Word. There are still new things going on. What should separate the "charismatic" church from the evangelical or Catholic "non-charismatic" church is that the signs aren't the big motivation. We don't run after them, and they in itself, don't provide the substance to your meeting. Rather, they should be looked upon as a nice touch or embellishment that are extraordinary, and not seen as the sole factor for validating a message.

Signs do follow the Word though, and if you've got healings and people being set free and filled, then you've got the main thing. Outward signs shouldn't be spurned either and can be smiled upon if they appear.

 

[Andrea411]

It is correct to question some things. You know that "non-Charismatics" already think what the church really possesses is just some gullible emotional thing that you can't maintain.

But "non-Charismatics" who sincerely love the Lord and would look into what a thread like this would reveal can tell if we're yielding to the "bottom feeding" instinct of the flesh. Even correction (if the people were actually here we're supposedly weighing) should be done in love.

We should always help to keep ourselves on track in this area.

We should also cross-examine things in all fairness, and not just lump "signs" into the category of "false" because they're not found in the Word. There are still new things going on. What should separate the "charismatic" church from the evangelical or Catholic "non-charismatic" church is that the signs aren't the big motivation. We don't run after them, and they in itself, don't provide the substance to your meeting. Rather, they should be looked upon as a nice touch or embellishment that are extraordinary, and not seen as the sole factor for validating a message.

Signs do follow the Word though, and if you've got healings and people being set free and filled, then you've got the main thing. Outward signs shouldn't be spurned either and can be smiled upon if they appear.

My thought is that the Lord moves in ways that heal and effect individuals lives….. the nay sayers begin their chant "false false false" and when the chant gets louder then the Hallelujah - the Holy Sprit will not stay where His works are attributed to Satan.
With every move of God a new anointing with power and authority comes in and then the people who want power and authority say "hey look over there" - they go and manipulate their way to the top of ministries and the power and anointing gets diluted with unbelief
I've been in and out of too many churches, not listening to the Holy Spirit. Not loving on one another…. back biting and devouring the church to make sure they get their portion… it has always been since the beginning. We must bring more than we take…. and only then will there be enough to go around….
God bless, waiting on the Lord, anticipation is wonderful…. andrea

 

[contango]

We should also cross-examine things in all fairness, and not just lump "signs" into the category of "false" because they're not found in the Word. There are still new things going on. What should separate the "charismatic" church from the evangelical or Catholic "non-charismatic" church is that the signs aren't the big motivation. We don't run after them, and they in itself, don't provide the substance to your meeting. Rather, they should be looked upon as a nice touch or embellishment that are extraordinary, and not seen as the sole factor for validating a message.

Some of the problems arise when people do seek signs and wonders first and foremost, losing sight of the fact that signs and wonders alone do not validate a ministry.

It's possible to fake a lot of signs and wonders in a way that would leave an observer convinced they had seen "the real thing", especially when word then gets around and people are so desperate to see something miraculous they are willing to believe just about anything.

Signs do follow the Word though, and if you've got healings and people being set free and filled, then you've got the main thing. Outward signs shouldn't be spurned either and can be smiled upon if they appear.

The main thing is whether people are coming to repentance of their sins. If someone is healed only to die in sin a little later than they had expected then from an eternal perspective the healing has achieved nothing at all. If someone comes to repentance and is not healed they can still look forward to an eternity with God.

 

[Frogster]

It is correct to question some things. You know that "non-Charismatics" already think what the church really possesses is just some gullible emotional thing that you can't maintain.

But "non-Charismatics" who sincerely love the Lord and would look into what a thread like this would reveal can tell if we're yielding to the "bottom feeding" instinct of the flesh. Even correction (if the people were actually here we're supposedly weighing) should be done in love.

We should always help to keep ourselves on track in this area.

We should also cross-examine things in all fairness, and not just lump "signs" into the category of "false" because they're not found in the Word. There are still new things going on. What should separate the "charismatic" church from the evangelical or Catholic "non-charismatic" church is that the signs aren't the big motivation. We don't run after them, and they in itself, don't provide the substance to your meeting. Rather, they should be looked upon as a nice touch or embellishment that are extraordinary, and not seen as the sole factor for validating a message.

Signs do follow the Word though, and if you've got healings and people being set free and filled, then you've got the main thing. Outward signs shouldn't be spurned either and can be smiled upon if they appear.

sure signs are great, but unscriptural ministries, are a bad light. So when they say outlandish things, or behave badly, or as you agreed some do, (I think it is much more than some), and use text wrong to get money, they don't care about Christianity, and have to be called on it.


2 Cor 6:3 We put no obstacle in anyone's way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry,

Now certainly you will agree with the frog on this?

 

[Frogster]

My thought is that the Lord moves in ways that heal and effect individuals lives….. the nay sayers begin their chant "false false false" and when the chant gets louder then the Hallelujah - the Holy Sprit will not stay where His works are attributed to Satan.
With every move of God a new anointing with power and authority comes in and then the people who want power and authority say "hey look over there" - they go and manipulate their way to the top of ministries and the power and anointing gets diluted with unbelief
I've been in and out of too many churches, not listening to the Holy Spirit. Not loving on one another…. back biting and devouring the church to make sure they get their portion… it has always been since the beginning. We must bring more than we take…. and only then will there be enough to go around….
God bless, waiting on the Lord, anticipation is wonderful…. andrea

Do you believe in protecting the innocent? I do. Do you believe there are warning texts that say "false false false" for a reason?

There was Paul, saying goodbye in a sad moment to elders in Acts 20, they would never see hin again, as some were crying. What does he talk about for parting words, what was on his heart?

Raised with Christ, eternal realities, mystical stuff? No, he said watch for wolves, and get a job like I did...

I love that...he cared about the protecting the sheep against wolves, and elders working so they would not burden and because he knew wolves would not work, so the conjunction of both thoughts, working, and warning, was to warn about the false, false, false..and to protect. A good shepherd protects.

be blessed, frog.

 

[Andrea411]

Do you believe in protecting the innocent? I do. Do you believe there are warning texts that say "false false false" for a reason?

There was Paul, saying goodbye in a sad moment to elders in Acts 20, they would never see hin again, as some were crying. What does he talk about for parting words, what was on his heart?

Raised with Christ, eternal realities, mystical stuff? No, he said watch for wolves, and get a job like I did...

I love that...he cared about the protecting the sheep against wolves, and elders working so they would not burden and because he knew wolves would not work, so the conjunction of both thoughts, working, and warning, was to warn about the false, false, false..and to protect. A good shepherd protects.

be blessed, frog.

yes, frog, I know about false, recall I came through the LDS…. but with many they only know false false false - that is a sure sign of there being no discernment and walking in fear. The other is the anti-church…. these churches are built to fight against some type of theology they deem false and it may very well be but all that they accomplish is to extend the deceit not eliminate it. The tares must be left to grow with the wheat…. while wasting time railing against the false, your usually preaching to your own choir…. and the Lord is not glorified. If you are in the midst of deceit… point people to truth… don't focus on the false. Thats all. Most of us are looking for truth, some have an ideology but most are listening… but if you yell, we become deaf and no one hears you any more…
God bless, andrea

 

[Frogster]

focussing on the false, brings it to light.

peter, John, Paul....they brought the false of false to light.

So, what do yout hink of that fact, that parting words, were a reminder, that Paul said for 3 years, with tears he warned them about twisted people n the church, who look to get disciples unto themselves?

3 years...only to have that be still on his heart, saying goodbye to comrades..

says alot to me...

ecumenicalism sounds lovely, but leads to false teachers hiding under it's umbrella..

 

[Frogster]

yes, frog, I know about false, recall I came through the LDS…. but with many they only know false false false - that is a sure sign of there being no discernment and walking in fear. The other is the anti-church…. these churches are built to fight against some type of theology they deem false and it may very well be but all that they accomplish is to extend the deceit not eliminate it. The tares must be left to grow with the wheat…. while wasting time railing against the false, your usually preaching to your own choir…. and the Lord is not glorified. If you are in the midst of deceit… point people to truth… don't focus on the false. Thats all. Most of us are looking for truth, some have an ideology but most are listening… but if you yell, we become deaf and no one hears you any more…
God bless, andrea

red above, Paul feared the false teachings..

2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.



1 Thess 3:5 For this reason, when I could bear it no longer, I sent to learn about your faith, for fear that somehow the tempter had tempted you and our labor would be in vain.

 

[Andrea411]

red above, Paul feared the false teachings..

2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.



1 Thess 3:5 For this reason, when I could bear it no longer, I sent to learn about your faith, for fear that somehow the tempter had tempted you and our labor would be in vain.

No. You would not describe the Apostle Paul as someone who walked in fear. he knew his authority in Christ…

…17the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. 18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, 19for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,…

Philippians 4:4-7, “Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

 

[contango]

yes, frog, I know about false, recall I came through the LDS…. but with many they only know false false false - that is a sure sign of there being no discernment and walking in fear. The other is the anti-church…. these churches are built to fight against some type of theology they deem false and it may very well be but all that they accomplish is to extend the deceit not eliminate it. The tares must be left to grow with the wheat…. while wasting time railing against the false, your usually preaching to your own choir…. and the Lord is not glorified. If you are in the midst of deceit… point people to truth… don't focus on the false. Thats all. Most of us are looking for truth, some have an ideology but most are listening… but if you yell, we become deaf and no one hears you any more…
God bless, andrea

When Paul wrote "Test all things, hold fast what is good" and John wrote "Beloved, do not believe every spirit" I think we've got pretty solid Biblical grounds for holding things at arms length for a time and accepting them if they pass testing.

We don't have to start out with an assumption of "false false false" but starting out with an assumption of "good good good" is likely to lead us into a lot more trouble.

Having seen more bad theology than I care to recount I increasingly look at new teachings with a view to validating them before accepting them, rather than assuming they are true until they are shown to be false. That latter approach leads to all sorts of confusion when theologies that appear good start to contradict each other, creating a situation where about the only solution is to assume they are all false and test each one against Scripture. If we test against Scripture first and accept second we're less likely to get into such a pickle.

 

[Andrea411]

When Paul wrote "Test all things, hold fast what is good" and John wrote "Beloved, do not believe every spirit" I think we've got pretty solid Biblical grounds for holding things at arms length for a time and accepting them if they pass testing.

We don't have to start out with an assumption of "false false false" but starting out with an assumption of "good good good" is likely to lead us into a lot more trouble.

Having seen more bad theology than I care to recount I increasingly look at new teachings with a view to validating them before accepting them, rather than assuming they are true until they are shown to be false. That latter approach leads to all sorts of confusion when theologies that appear good start to contradict each other, creating a situation where about the only solution is to assume they are all false and test each one against Scripture. If we test against Scripture first and accept second we're less likely to get into such a pickle.

​

The scriptures clearly tell us there is a difference for different people as they become more mature….. milk/meat. This may be one of the stronger arguments for the home church then anything else. I am appalled when there is a strong message on tithing when there are visitors…. and likewise when 35 minutes is allowed fro scheduling events. On the other hand, we ALL need accountability. The organized church is useful there so as to keep pastors, teachers… on the right path or at least on the same path. loose cannons cause problems too.
I've been a Christian a long time, I can look out over any congregation of 500 people and tell you 3/4 of them have no clue what it is they believe and it doesn't matter for the most part. Salvation is not based on WHAT you believe, its on in WHOM you put your faith. Most churches are teaching from the text and have little understanding of how to break a heart… and yes, I mean break a heart. The awareness of what was accomplished on the cross for every follower of Christ - absolutely should break our hearts… then the Lord can put it back together properly.
At least in Charismatic churches there is an awareness of the emotional toll our faith should have on us, not just a head knowledge of our Lord and Savior but He as our Love, the very center of our existence. Can't teach that…. have to experience it. So for the nay sayers who down play the emotionalism in a Spirit-filled church. It serves a purpose…. to reach hearts. It is after all the love of God that brings us to repentance not just the knowledge of God.
God bless, andrea

PS:… please tell me where you've found all this good theology. Thank you, andrea

 

[Frogster]

No. You would not describe the Apostle Paul as someone who walked in fear. he knew his authority in Christ…

…17the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. 18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, 19for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,…

Philippians 4:4-7, “Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

i did not say walked, that would be an ongoing verb indicating all the time, but it says he feared, not saying all the time, and believe me I defend Paul in the GT section, but it is what he said, in fact, our bro worried daily...
I love Paul, but don't forget, it is power through weakness, just showing what the text says..

2 Cor 11:28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches.

 

[Frogster]

​

The scriptures clearly tell us there is a difference for different people as they become more mature….. milk/meat. This may be one of the stronger arguments for the home church then anything else. I am appalled when there is a strong message on tithing when there are visitors…. and likewise when 35 minutes is allowed fro scheduling events. On the other hand, we ALL need accountability.
I've been a Christian a long time, I can look out over any congregation of 500 people and tell you 3/4 of them have no clue what it is they believe and it doesn't matter for the most part. Salvation is not based on WHAT you believe, its on in WHOM you put your faith. Most churches are teaching from the text and have little understanding of how to break a heart… and yes, I mean break a heart. The awareness of what was accomplished on the cross for every follower of Christ - absolutely should break our hearts… then the Lord can put it back together properly.
At least in Charismatic churches there is an awareness of the emotional toll our faith should have on us, not just a head knowledge of our Lord and Savior but He as our Love, the very center of our existence. Can't teach that…. have to experience it. So for the nay sayers who down play the emotionalism in a Spirit-filled church. It serves a purpose…. to reach hearts. It is after all the love of God that brings us to repentance not just the knowledge of God.
God bless, andrea

it does matter what people believe, if they believe stress teachings, or bondage teachings, what will their lives be like?

 

[Frogster]

No. You would not describe the Apostle Paul as someone who walked in fear. he knew his authority in Christ…

…17the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. 18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, 19for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,…

Philippians 4:4-7, “Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

ps, Paul also had despair sometimes, and it also says fear in 2 Cor 7.
So Phil 4, must have balance..he desparied of life in 2 Cor 1, the Ephesus account is in chapter 1. So good to dwell on good, Phil 4, but we can't turn that into the be all end all.

 

[BenAdam]

I think I know a good way to test the signs, listen to what the person is saying first. True signs follow solid teaching.

 

[Yitzchak]

When Paul wrote "Test all things, hold fast what is good" and John wrote "Beloved, do not believe every spirit" I think we've got pretty solid Biblical grounds for holding things at arms length for a time and accepting them if they pass testing.

We don't have to start out with an assumption of "false false false" but starting out with an assumption of "good good good" is likely to lead us into a lot more trouble.

Having seen more bad theology than I care to recount I increasingly look at new teachings with a view to validating them before accepting them, rather than assuming they are true until they are shown to be false. That latter approach leads to all sorts of confusion when theologies that appear good start to contradict each other, creating a situation where about the only solution is to assume they are all false and test each one against Scripture. If we test against Scripture first and accept second we're less likely to get into such a pickle.

I have been a christian for thirty years and have found what you are saying here to be absolutely false. The biblical model of church Government is family and discipleship. We have fathers and mothers in the faith which help us.

The message being promoted in this post is like taking the message to young children about watching out for strangers into watch out for everyone including their own family.

Even nature itself teaches us the opposite. We are born as helpless babies who cannot defend or fend for ourselves. But we are born into families. We form bonds and trust relationships with parents and other adults in our circle.

Society sets up structures within which we extend a measure of trust. I don't assume for example , that every time I go to the doctor's office that he is a fake doctor. Or that everytime that I go to the local Mcdonalds drive through that I have to take the food to a lab to be tested for poison. We would consider a person that does that to be paranoid , not careful. Just imagien going through my daily routine doubting everyone and everything that I see.

Somehow you have managed to take the message that the apostles gave to watch out for wolves and strangers who teach another message and turn it into interrogate and distrust all the sheep. Into a message of paranoia.

I couldn't disagree with the teaching of this post more. This is the most unhealthy advice that I have heard in a long time. The apostles did not teach us to be paranoid. That is a gross misinterpretation of those passages of scripture.

A little bit of common sense shows us even in the natural when someone is going off the deep end with paranoid behavior. When someone starts saying that they are all out to get me and thinks that everyone is dangerous . That is one of the warning signs. Teaching the young in Christ to be paranoid is not protecting them.