Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

How do these harsh words, fit in the gal 5 quote about factions, hatred, etc?

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Rom 16:18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Andrea411 · Dec 20, 2013

Frogster said:
How do these harsh words, fit in the gal 5 quote about factions, hatred, etc?

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Rom 16:18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

again,.. your entire focus in the Charismatic section is negative ONLY!!! If you say you don't attack people but their teachings, then talk about their teachings. But for the love of God find someone you like..

8 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

Andrea411 said:
again,.. your entire focus in the Charismatic section is negative ONLY!!! If you say you don't attack people but their teachings, then talk about their teachings. But for the love of God find someone you like..

8 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

Well, gee, the whole book of Jude is negative, and full of "discord". Please allow me to be negative, thanks!

TillICollapse · Dec 20, 2013

Frogster said:
Please be advised, i am mostly fighting the teachers/teachings.

Have you seen a lot of good fruit from fighting them ? In other words ... what has been the outcome of your actions ? Can you give some examples ? If so, cool. If you don't want to give examples, no worries either.

And lemme ask this ... what would be your *ideal* fight ? Can you describe it ? Like ... when you fight a teacher/teaching, what do you really hope the outcome is ? What would you like to see happen to the teacher/teaching ? Like specifics ... not generally speaking, but *specifically* speaking. If they agree with you, what do you want to happen to them ? If they don't, what do you want to happen to them ?

contango · Dec 20, 2013

TillICollapse said:
Have you seen a lot of good fruit from fighting them ? In other words ... what has been the outcome of your actions ? Can you give some examples ? If so, cool. If you don't want to give examples, no worries either.

And lemme ask this ... what would be your *ideal* fight ? Can you describe it ? Like ... when you fight a teacher/teaching, what do you really hope the outcome is ? What would you like to see happen to the teacher/teaching ? Like specifics ... not generally speaking, but *specifically* speaking. If they agree with you, what do you want to happen to them ? If they don't, what do you want to happen to them ?

You raise a very good point here. In fairness I suspect the people whose teachings cause concern are unlikely to be reading here so it's largely academic, but in terms of ideal outcomes I'd say it's quite simple.

Let's say I'm criticising the teachings of someone named Nigel. The ideal situation for me is that Nigel's followers would test what I have to say against Scripture and either stop following, or explain using Scripture why they believe he is right and I am wrong. Either is fine - if I am wrong I'd rather be corrected with Scripture than left believing something false. Likewise if Nigel were to read the thread I'd like to think he would consider what I had to say and either change his teachings or explain using Scripture why he believed he was right and I was wrong. If people believe that I have misunderstood Scripture the answer is for both sides to study the Scriptures to understand what is true.

That said there's no point trying to discuss with people who look to shut down discussion. Telling me I have a "Jezebel spirit" or a "religious spirit" or some such isn't helpful. Anyone can throw accusations around and "you have a Jezebel spirit" is no more useful than saying "you're a false prophet" without explaining why.

If they are false teachers and do not repent what happens to them is between them and God.

Joy · Dec 20, 2013

Andrea411 said:
again,.. your entire focus in the Charismatic section is negative ONLY!!! If you say you don't attack people but their teachings, then talk about their teachings. But for the love of God find someone you like..

8 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

i totally agree

why post in this section if everything one posts is negative such posts should not be allowed

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

contango said:
You raise a very good point here. In fairness I suspect the people whose teachings cause concern are unlikely to be reading here so it's largely academic, but in terms of ideal outcomes I'd say it's quite simple.

Let's say I'm criticising the teachings of someone named Nigel. The ideal situation for me is that Nigel's followers would test what I have to say against Scripture and either stop following, or explain using Scripture why they believe he is right and I am wrong. Either is fine - if I am wrong I'd rather be corrected with Scripture than left believing something false. Likewise if Nigel were to read the thread I'd like to think he would consider what I had to say and either change his teachings or explain using Scripture why he believed he was right and I was wrong. If people believe that I have misunderstood Scripture the answer is for both sides to study the Scriptures to understand what is true.

That said there's no point trying to discuss with people who look to shut down discussion. Telling me I have a "Jezebel spirit" or a "religious spirit" or some such isn't helpful. Anyone can throw accusations around and "you have a Jezebel spirit" is no more useful than saying "you're a false prophet" without explaining why.

If they are false teachers and do not repent what happens to them is between them and God.

good points, and yes, the jezebel name calling is common, that is allowed in some people's minds, yet when we use scripture to show something, and ask them for some, we get name called, so they get mad at us, as they deem it fine saying one has a jezebel spirit. I think that is pretty.....ummmmmm..

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

TillICollapse said:
Have you seen a lot of good fruit from fighting them ? In other words ... what has been the outcome of your actions ? Can you give some examples ? If so, cool. If you don't want to give examples, no worries either.

And lemme ask this ... what would be your *ideal* fight ? Can you describe it ? Like ... when you fight a teacher/teaching, what do you really hope the outcome is ? What would you like to see happen to the teacher/teaching ? Like specifics ... not generally speaking, but *specifically* speaking. If they agree with you, what do you want to happen to them ? If they don't, what do you want to happen to them ?

i will go with the no worries clause here, private stuff, as far as work that i have done, thanks. Contango covered the rest.

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

Scripture time.

Rev 2:2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

Amazing, then and now, how there were those calling themselves apostles, but are not, and were not, Jesus said so.

TillICollapse · Dec 20, 2013

Frogster said:
i will go with the no worries clause here, private stuff, as far as work that i have done, thanks. Contango covered the rest.

I gotcha ... private is private.

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

TillICollapse said:
I gotcha ... private is private.

Look at it like this, look at al the threads in our CF section, no one talks of this stuff, so i do, because contrary thought is needed, to challenge the collective group mind, it can be very insulated in some churches, or forums.

The consensus realty, the insulated idealologies, need to be questioned, to me it's fine, to strike the insulation a bit.

If people don't like it, fine, if they do fine, but free thought is needed, and should not be demagogued with calling people jezebel, or waving the "hate discord" thing, to silence opposition.

TillICollapse · Dec 20, 2013

Frogster said:
Look at it like this, look at al the threads in our CF section, no one talks of this stuff, so i do, because contrary thought is needed, to challenge the collective group mind, it can be very insulated in some churches, or forums.

The consensus realty, the insulated idealologies, need to be questioned, to me it's fine, to strike the insulation a bit.

If people don't like it, fine, if they do fine, but free thought is needed, and should not be demagogued with calling people jezebel, or waving the "hate discord" thing, to silence opposition.

But you're not getting SPECIFIC. Even in saying you are challenging the "group mind" ... which group ? Just, "Charismatics in general," or something ? It doesn't seem like you are aiming high enough to challenge what is OVER Charismatics, nor getting specific enough to take down a wolf/false apostle/etc that you are calling out (i.e. "My problem is with Tim Jones, I think he's fake, and I challenge him,") etc. So I'm not seeing the benefit in going after a generic middle, that's why I asked for examples of what you've experienced in this tactic.

I can't tell if you are wanting to discuss a topic, or get out your feelings and frustrations tbh.

I don't like to question and run, however I'm getting ready to be extremely busy and occupied for the next 14 hours or so, so I may not respond for awhile lol ...

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

TillICollapse said:
But you're not getting SPECIFIC. Even in saying you are challenging the "group mind" ... which group ? Just, "Charismatics in general," or something ? It doesn't seem like you are aiming high enough to challenge what is OVER Charismatics, nor getting specific enough to take down a wolf/false apostle/etc that you are calling out (i.e. "My problem is with Tim Jones, I think he's fake, and I challenge him,") etc. So I'm not seeing the benefit in going after a generic middle, that's why I asked for examples of what you've experienced in this tactic.

I can't tell if you are wanting to discuss a topic, or get out your feelings and frustrations tbh.

I don't like to question and run, however I'm getting ready to be extremely busy and occupied for the next 14 hours or so, so I may not respond for awhile lol ...

ummm..it is not the "generic middle", to tell people there is a room in heaven with body parts

There is tons of goofy stuff in our churches, maybe you are not aware of it, and besides, you may not like what I say, fine, others do, that is the wonder of life.

MikeBigg · Dec 20, 2013

Frogster said:
ummm..it is not the "generic middle", to tell people there is a room in heaven with body parts

You know for sure there isn't? Can you show me that in scripture?

Actually, I have heard people use this as a suggestion in training for healing. It goes along the lines of "imagine there is a room in heaven with body parts ...." It was never supposed to be a theological, doctrinal position, but an aid to seeing God heal people.

Strangely, miraculously, it helps some minister healing and people get healed. The "imagine" is important.

Can you shown me in scripture that that is incorrect?

Another thing I heard once was that someone imagine the results of a body scan of a person they were about to pray for ... where on the scan was bight area that indicated a problem.

It is actually a form of word of knowledge, but won't be in the Bible because body scanners hadn't been invented then.

But it is a good tool to encourage words of knowledge for healings.

It is a bit wacky - do you dismiss that too?

What other wacky things have happened ... hmm, a prophet commands an axe head to float, a dead body rolls against another dead body bringing it back to life, Jesus spits in someone's eyes, Jesus spits in the mud then puts mud in the eye, Jesus, the Rabbi touches an unclean leper and he gets healed, people allow Peter's shadow to fall on them and they get healed, the Holy Spirit came upon a crowd of people in such a way that they were accused of being drunk, 42 boys get mauled by bears after making fun of a prophet, the apostles performed many signs and wonders (what!? Not God?) ... crowds came from all over bringing their sick and possessed and all were healed or set free.

All pretty wacky stuff. And that's off the top of my head ... I'm sure I'll think of more wackiness as soon as I click the "post" button, and I'm sure I'd find more if I looked.

Just because it isn't in the Bible, does not mean it is not of God.

I tell you what - it is a whole lot easier to criticise when someone exercises the faith to do something in the realm of healing or miracles than it is to take the risk and step out to pray. So much easier to say God doesn't heal, than to say "yes He does - watch this ...."

Anyway, I'm sure nothing I say will ever change you from throwing your rocks.

Kind regards,

Mike

contango · Dec 20, 2013

MikeBigg said:
Just because it isn't in the Bible, does not mean it is not of God.

I tell you what - it is a whole lot easier to criticise when someone exercises the faith to do something in the realm of healing or miracles than it is to take the risk and step out to pray. So much easier to say God doesn't heal, than to say "yes He does - watch this ...."

Anyway, I'm sure nothing I say will ever change you from throwing your rocks.

Kind regards,

Mike

Lots of good points in here.

I think the issue is striking the balance between letting God move so we're not constrained by an endless sense that God can't do anything unless he did it previously, and creating a total free-for-all situation where false teachers and false prophets get into our midst unchallenged.

You are entirely right when you say that just because something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it is not of God. I'd just look to counterbalance that with the observation that not all signs and wonders are from God, and the "unity above all" approach leaves no room to root out bad theology.

FoundInGrace · Dec 20, 2013

Frogster I like that you point out error, nothing wrong with that. It's refreshing because in my experience and therefore imho (from being done in for a time by false teaching in Charismatic circles) there are precious few who are willing to do it. And when people do it frees others people. eg. a guy who people thought of as a prophet even though he wasn't really just saw it as it was type of guy visited the group I was in that was teaching false doctrine and called the guy leading the group out on it.
was awesome because I knew something was wrong but kept being told all those classic lines about not touching the Lord's anointed and the keeping the unity lines so was struggling inside a lot and knew I needed to leave but was getting lost in all the wrong teaching... anyway the prophet type guy calling the leader out on his false teaching was wonderful and helped me tremendously by reinforcing I wasn't off base in thinking the stuff was wrong because it actually was. Soon after I found the courage to leave the group - God helped me leave as well. So God helped me out of all that rubbish partly because someone dared to expose the false teaching! So Frogster go for it, question all the rubbish because you're probably helping people you aren't aware of.

God bless you

TillICollapse · Dec 20, 2013

Frogster said:
ummm..it is not the "generic middle", to tell people there is a room in heaven with body parts

A lot of your posts are peppered with "they" and "them", etc. You even refer to the collective group mind. That is generic. Even when you say "Charismatics", that's still generic. It's almost the equivalent of saying "Christians".

Not being generic would be to focus on a specific issue and whom you have the issue with, in order to get to the bottom of some truth ... not just proving your side, but getting to the bottom of the *truth*. There is a difference between being correct, verse getting to the bottom of the truth.

People already claim to trust scripture ... lots of us trust Paul, Jesus, Moses, whomever, God, etc. Whether they are handling it correctly or not, is another matter. Whom we don't trust, is each other.

There is tons of goofy stuff in our churches, maybe you are not aware of it, and besides, you may not like what I say, fine, others do, that is the wonder of life.

I am aware there are tons of goofy stuff in and out of the churches ... and I am personally interested in weeding out some of the falsehoods and wolves myself. Speaking for myself, I'm not interested in it because I want to make Christianity shinier and more clean or something. I don't personally "Seek ye Christianity first," and I'm not interested in proving the Bible as truth either. I already trust the scriptures. What I want, is for falsehoods to get out of the way so they don't block the doors to the Kingdom and attack those trying to enter in, and perpetuate evil bondage, deception, and suffering over those who call on the name of the Lord.

So how about this ... can you think of someone you'd like to specifically target and challenge ? How about, "Enough talk, let's see action." Not talk, but power. Would you like to single out someone specifically and try to get to the bottom of the truth with them ... getting rid of the falsehoods and letting light shine, etc ?

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

MikeBigg said:
You know for sure there isn't? Can you show me that in scripture?

Actually, I have heard people use this as a suggestion in training for healing. It goes along the lines of "imagine there is a room in heaven with body parts ...." It was never supposed to be a theological, doctrinal position, but an aid to seeing God heal people.

Strangely, miraculously, it helps some minister healing and people get healed. The "imagine" is important.

Can you shown me in scripture that that is incorrect?

Another thing I heard once was that someone imagine the results of a body scan of a person they were about to pray for ... where on the scan was bight area that indicated a problem.

It is actually a form of word of knowledge, but won't be in the Bible because body scanners hadn't been invented then.

But it is a good tool to encourage words of knowledge for healings.

It is a bit wacky - do you dismiss that too?

What other wacky things have happened ... hmm, a prophet commands an axe head to float, a dead body rolls against another dead body bringing it back to life, Jesus spits in someone's eyes, Jesus spits in the mud then puts mud in the eye, Jesus, the Rabbi touches an unclean leper and he gets healed, people allow Peter's shadow to fall on them and they get healed, the Holy Spirit came upon a crowd of people in such a way that they were accused of being drunk, 42 boys get mauled by bears after making fun of a prophet, the apostles performed many signs and wonders (what!? Not God?) ... crowds came from all over bringing their sick and possessed and all were healed or set free.

All pretty wacky stuff. And that's off the top of my head ... I'm sure I'll think of more wackiness as soon as I click the "post" button, and I'm sure I'd find more if I looked.

Just because it isn't in the Bible, does not mean it is not of God.

I tell you what - it is a whole lot easier to criticise when someone exercises the faith to do something in the realm of healing or miracles than it is to take the risk and step out to pray. So much easier to say God doesn't heal, than to say "yes He does - watch this ...."

Anyway, I'm sure nothing I say will ever change you from throwing your rocks.

Kind regards,

Mike

Greeting and salutations, you ask for scripture about body parts? can you show me where there is text to say there is? In fact, you do as the OP talks about, just because there are things in the Bible, does that mean spare parts in heaven? There are descriptions about heaven, aren't there, why no mention of body parts? Just believe anyone?

We hear of thrones, gold streests, angels, a description of the Lord, hair white as wool, eyes of fire, 2 edged swords, a garment dipped in blood, but nothing about a meat locker!

Now as far as you're squirt gun post, do you think that rosary beads heal, or "holy water" or prayers to Mary? I don't remember if you actually thought the beads healed?

thanks, frog.

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

contango said:
Lots of good points in here.

I think the issue is striking the balance between letting God move so we're not constrained by an endless sense that God can't do anything unless he did it previously, and creating a total free-for-all situation where false teachers and false prophets get into our midst unchallenged.

You are entirely right when you say that just because something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it is not of God. I'd just look to counterbalance that with the observation that not all signs and wonders are from God, and the "unity above all" approach leaves no room to root out bad theology.

with all due respct, and courtesy, which way are you going? Sorry....

you pointed aout using scripture earlier...

Paul, and Peter were very sound, and conservative, that is scriptural, Paul was concerned about simple basic stuff, being in order, tongues, prophecy, do you really think that all this silly stuff, would be approved by Paul, squirt guns, kicking people to heal, glitter dust, body parts, people singing to Michael, singing how beautiful he is?

In fact, paul warded off angel worship/ putting them to high (text available) and that is going on, and seemingly approved my TV ministers.

Frogster · Dec 20, 2013

TillICollapse said:
A lot of your posts are peppered with "they" and "them", etc. You even refer to the collective group mind. That is generic. Even when you say "Charismatics", that's still generic. It's almost the equivalent of saying "Christians".

Not being generic would be to focus on a specific issue and whom you have the issue with, in order to get to the bottom of some truth ... not just proving your side, but getting to the bottom of the *truth*. There is a difference between being correct, verse getting to the bottom of the truth.

People already claim to trust scripture ... lots of us trust Paul, Jesus, Moses, whomever, God, etc. Whether they are handling it correctly or not, is another matter. Whom we don't trust, is each other.

I am aware there are tons of goofy stuff in and out of the churches ... and I am personally interested in weeding out some of the falsehoods and wolves myself. Speaking for myself, I'm not interested in it because I want to make Christianity shinier and more clean or something. I don't personally "Seek ye Christianity first," and I'm not interested in proving the Bible as truth either. I already trust the scriptures. What I want, is for falsehoods to get out of the way so they don't block the doors to the Kingdom and attack those trying to enter in, and perpetuate evil bondage, deception, and suffering over those who call on the name of the Lord.

So how about this ... can you think of someone you'd like to specifically target and challenge ? How about, "Enough talk, let's see action." Not talk, but power. Would you like to single out someone specifically and try to get to the bottom of the truth with them ... getting rid of the falsehoods and letting light shine, etc ?

bro...how about people refute my text, some here seem to demand of me, well, please anyone is welcome to refute my text..

I post that there is text that people lie, make up stories, are false apostles, use greed, flattery, wolves, etc, they are welcome to rebutt that, but i will not post to please what others want, sorry, with all due respect, that is forum life.

be blessed, frog.

Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

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