Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

Frogster · Dec 17, 2013

MikeBigg said:
I'm sure he could - he had a "successful" (whatever that may mean) healing ministry beforehand, but what about what he learned from that - I can see so many lessons in that for those involved in healing.

Healing is a grace gift - it cannot be earned. At no point should anyone think that just because someone sees healings that their life is right. It might not be any "righter" than yours or mine. A lesson from the heroes of the faith is that God uses broken people to accomplish His purposes.

God was not validating the water pistol, but His word and the expression of authority of His co-worker.

I can't really comment on the rosary beads, I'm not sure how they came to be used.

But is all of what we see anti-God?

The guy who kicked people when praying for healing (deliberately not mentioning his name as it only starts arguments) was, in my opinion, using that as a way to express his authority in healing. I absolutely don't agree with what he did. I think it was misplaced and misguided. However, people got healed from that sometimes. What are we to make of that? God's grace, yes but also, maybe, there is something to learn about what we have in us in Kingdom terms and how we are responsible in some way to do something in order to see healings. Well, big fat maybe, but there does seem to be something in that, based on experience and observation.

Your welcome, and thanks for your gracious reply.

Regards,

Mike

Well, it sounds like we agree, no kicking, no rosary beads, and no childrens toys are needed, and often a distraction, and an open door f ro cessationists, to gather ammo against us, as well as the unsaved. Aslo, they were not healed by the kick, or the beads, or the gun, but by mercy, as I am sure you agree, so lets get rid of the silly accoutrements, for sure.

A pleasure chatting, thanks, frog.

Frogster · Dec 17, 2013

Andrea411 said:
.when the negativity of your message so far out weighs anything positive you bring to the charismatic forums - there is a problem with the messenger.
I have yet to see you say anything positive except to pat someone on the back that agrees with you.
When that happens it blunts your message, even when you are correct. I don't really listen to you or take you seriously. Some people just get off on putting others down

I heard a saying once there are two ways to have the best house in town - one is to build the best house the other is to tear down all the nicer houses.

sad really and such a waste. Bring joy where ever you go and people will want to hear what you have to say. After all Jesus only got angry with the religious folk who criticized people who weren't as religious as they thought themselves. whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones.

Educate, exhort and encourage .. shouldn't be that difficult to have them all combined

I am who I am. You said Jesus got angry, we know Paul got angry and so do I. Believe me the religious fok, who get angry with me can be the same, their religion might not be a pharisaical Judaism thing, but anything can be their religion. Yes? And when challenged, they can get just as mad as a phairsee, because under their particular belief system, hyper charismatic beliefs, law, you name it, can lurk a control mechanism, fuled by anger, and when challenged, controls come off, nothing really new under the sun, but the frog has thick green skin, he enjoys a robust debate.

Frogster · Dec 17, 2013

contango said:
Miracles can and do happen but that doesn't mean all miracles are from God. Some miracles are from God, some are from the devil, and many miracles can be fabricated.

All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.

The Bible is very clear on this matter:

1Th 5:19-21 NKJV Do not quench the Spirit. (20) Do not despise prophecies. (21) Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Test ALL things, hold fast what is good. If anyone doesn't want their words or deeds tested my first thought would be to wonder why.

Agreed, and the tired old excuse, of validating every so called miracle, or vision, by saying those are things in the Bible, is boring already, because of text that shows, not all is of God, right in the Bible that they try to use, to validate everything under the sun, even the weird and silly stuff, good post you made, thanks, frog.

Frogster · Dec 17, 2013

K2K said:
Only God is good!!

So we are holding fast to God!!

So we test things by taking them to God!!

We don't test them by leaning on our understanding, but we take all things to God in prayer, right?

So who is the one not wanting their words or deeds tested? Isn't it the one who doesn't that things to God?

And so who is the one taking things to God? Isn't it the one telling others to take things to God?

text..good!

Hold fast, test things..amen... thanks, bro.

Frogster · Dec 17, 2013

contango said:
We can also test things against Scripture. If something contradicts Scripture that's usually a pretty good sign we can leave it well alone.

Some people like to test things based on whether they "feel good" or not. That can be a bad thing - we might use a sense of discernment to know that something just "doesn't feel right" but to rely on feelings alone is to invite all sorts of dodgy conclusions.

People who like to tickle ears and tell people what they want to hear will usually create a "feel good factor" in their audience, even if what they are talking is complete bunk.

true, and the gospel peddlers know how to tickle, and flatter, as the Bible shows in several passages..

Frogster · Dec 17, 2013

BenAdam said:
Yes, scripture is the standard. Anyone who has ever had a gauge or instrument calibrated knows that it is calibrated against a standard, which is based on a more stringent standard. There are ultimate standards for the meter maintained by the BIPM (actually it did, the standard is now the standard wavelength emission of Krypton-86 in a vacuum, but I digress and I didn't mean this to be a primer on international weights and measures).

The weights and measures folks don't maintain something for everything. There is not standard kilometer measurement for instance, that is based on the meter.

My point is scripture may not include everything we ever run across, but everything can find it's base or root in scripture and that is that standard to measure prophesy, revelation, teaching, words of wisdom, visions, ad naseum from.

Frogster · Dec 17, 2013

K2K said:
That's great to hear! That is exactly what I am talking about!

As for your question; I did answer it. You must have missed what I was saying.

Your question was: "what is your concept of "revelation" ? How would you define it ? "

The answer was: "When you read the Scriptures, you should also be seeking to hear what the Lord has to say to you personally. Then you will have a revelation of Jesus Christ!!"

The revelation is a revelation of Jesus Christ!!

You got that revelation when you started walking and talking with Him. Everyone that starts walking and talking with Him has the revelation of Jesus Christ. Yet to those who don't walk and talk with Him, He has not been revealed to them.

You see this in the Revelation. Note: the last book of the bible is not called Revelations, but Revelation. The revelation is a revealing of Jesus Christ, and when He is revealed to us we find that He is always with us. He is the Great I Am. He is the Word of God. He is the King. And He wants talk to us so bad that He is just standing there and knocking with His voice. But to many He has not been revealed.

Is 30:20 He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher and your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it," whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

That is what happen when we get our revelation. We start hearing from Him regularly, just like you mentioned was happening with you and just like I told you. That is the revelation!

and look at all of the glorious revelation, in the text.

if it were not written, could one of us know what we know, in all that we do know?

ses?...text is revelation....

The Unforgettable Fire · Dec 17, 2013

Frogster said:
Can I question some things I hear in our Charismatic movement?

No.

Andrea411 · Dec 17, 2013

The Unforgettable Fire said:
No.

Thank you

TillICollapse · Dec 17, 2013

K2K said:
That's great to hear! That is exactly what I am talking about!

As for your question; I did answer it. You must have missed what I was saying.

Your question was: "what is your concept of "revelation" ? How would you define it ? "

The answer was: "When you read the Scriptures, you should also be seeking to hear what the Lord has to say to you personally. Then you will have a revelation of Jesus Christ!!"

The revelation is a revelation of Jesus Christ!!

You got that revelation when you started walking and talking with Him. Everyone that starts walking and talking with Him has the revelation of Jesus Christ. Yet to those who don't walk and talk with Him, He has not been revealed to them.

You see this in the Revelation. Note: the last book of the bible is not called Revelations, but Revelation. The revelation is a revealing of Jesus Christ, and when He is revealed to us we find that He is always with us. He is the Great I Am. He is the Word of God. He is the King. And He wants talk to us so bad that He is just standing there and knocking with His voice. But to many He has not been revealed.

Is 30:20 He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher and your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it," whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

That is what happen when we get our revelation. We start hearing from Him regularly, just like you mentioned was happening with you and just like I told you. That is the revelation!

I see your answer now ... I have a different definition of revelation from yours, so I missed yours in your post I was curious, so thanks for answering

K2K · Dec 17, 2013

Frogster said:
and look at all of the glorious revelation, in the text.

if it were not written, could one of us know what we know, in all that we do know?

ses?...text is revelation....

The text isn't revelation, it only points the way to revelation.

If the text was revelation, then Christ would have been revealed to the Pharisees like Saul.

But faith comes from hearing. So it was that Christ was revealed to Saul on the road to Damascus. The revelation of Jesus Christ comes in the hearing of the Lord, not in the reading of the Lord.

The text says, "Behold I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him...

So it is by hearing the Christ that He is revealed. Once Saul heard, He became a new man, Paul. So we preach hearing Jesus Christ by faith, and use the text to do so.

TillICollapse · Dec 17, 2013

Frogster said:
and look at all of the glorious revelation, in the text.

if it were not written, could one of us know what we know, in all that we do know?

ses?...text is revelation....

Idk what you mean by this ... are you saying that a person cannot receive a revelation of God, or from God, apart from having read about it first in the scriptures ?

Bob Carabbio · Dec 18, 2013

"Ok, so can I test everything, as the text says to do,"

Of Course!!! You're INSTRUCTED TO "Prove all things, and hold fast that which is Good" (1 Thess 5:21)

"do I weigh prophecies like the text says to do,"

Of Course!!! You're INSTRUCTED to "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge". (1 Cor 14:29)

ANYBODY who commits resources on the basis of an unconfirmed prophetic utterance IS A FOOL.

And the FIRST person that tells you "Not to touch the Lord's Anointed" should be your clue that you're IN A CULT - not a church.

Simple as that.

Andrea411 · Dec 18, 2013

Bob Carabbio said:
"Ok, so can I test everything, as the text says to do,"

Of Course!!! You're INSTRUCTED TO "Prove all things, and hold fast that which is Good" (1 Thess 5:21)

"do I weigh prophecies like the text says to do,"

Of Course!!! You're INSTRUCTED to "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge". (1 Cor 14:29)

ANYBODY who commits resources on the basis of an unconfirmed prophetic utterance IS A FOOL.

And the FIRST person that tells you "Not to touch the Lord's Anointed" should be your clue that you're IN A CULT - not a church.

Simple as that.

always love to hear from you Bob.. simple as that
God bless, andrea

BenAdam · Dec 18, 2013

Bob Carabbio said:
[BAnd the FIRST person that tells you "Not to touch the Lord's Anointed" should be your clue that you're IN A CULT - not a church.

Funny thing that, it is true, touch not the Lord's anointed. But just because one says they are doesn't make it so.

Frogster · Dec 18, 2013

K2K said:
The text isn't revelation, it only points the way to revelation.

If the text was revelation, then Christ would have been revealed to the Pharisees like Saul.

But faith comes from hearing. So it was that Christ was revealed to Saul on the road to Damascus. The revelation of Jesus Christ comes in the hearing of the Lord, not in the reading of the Lord.

The text says, "Behold I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him...

So it is by hearing the Christ that He is revealed. Once Saul heard, He became a new man, Paul. So we preach hearing Jesus Christ by faith, and use the text to do so.

but that is revelation, but written down, why does in not become revelation, because it's written?:o

see post 98.

Frogster · Dec 18, 2013

TillICollapse said:
Idk what you mean by this ... are you saying that a person cannot receive a revelation of God, or from God, apart from having read about it first in the scriptures ?

Hi, no, just that both are revelation. Paul worte down the revelations, that is what they are now too, because they are still true, and he was making it known to the church then, this grace, and it is still being made known now.

Eph 3:3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.

3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

Frogster · Dec 18, 2013

Bob Carabbio said:
"Ok, so can I test everything, as the text says to do,"

Of Course!!! You're INSTRUCTED TO "Prove all things, and hold fast that which is Good" (1 Thess 5:21)

"do I weigh prophecies like the text says to do,"

Of Course!!! You're INSTRUCTED to "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge". (1 Cor 14:29)

ANYBODY who commits resources on the basis of an unconfirmed prophetic utterance IS A FOOL.

And the FIRST person that tells you "Not to touch the Lord's Anointed" should be your clue that you're IN A CULT - not a church.

Simple as that.

go Texan!

TillICollapse · Dec 18, 2013

Frogster said:
Hi, no, just that both are revelation. Paul worte down the revelations, that is what they are now too, because they are still true, and he was making it known to the church then, this grace, and it is still being made known now.

Eph 3:3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.

3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

Okay I gotcha.

Alive_Again · Dec 18, 2013

Excuse the interuption, however I can't help but to notice a blatant contradiction here. You speak of the need to move away from the scriptural, to the personal, all as you quote a verse, where Paul directs Timothy to the sacred writings, commonly known as the scriptures.

I receive this as "Do more than just apply scriptures to someone that establish a precedent of truth that these things will happen to the church (generally speaking).

If someone makes someone look bad, judges the intent of their heart, etc., they need to more than talk about it. You need to demonstrate how that is. Anybody can make an accusation.

The Jews said said, do we judge someone before hearing them? We don't answer a matter before we hear it. That is unjust.

As for "not touching the anointed", clearly we are not to do so. You might take issue with someone walking in that anointing as they claim certain signs. It is possible to express an anointing and have a personal life that is wrong. We judge by the fruit. But the anointing will function in someone anyway. But we don't touch that anointing (we don't with our flesh touch the oxcart). We don't come against the move of the Spirit.

If someone doesn't believe a sign is legit (but it is), then to denigrate that sign is to come against the anointing. If you're not convinced, you might say so, but to judge from the flesh is very dangerous. It's easy to do. Not all signs are from God.

The degree of charity in your judgment should be a good reflection of whether or not "you" are out of the picture. If someone takes obvious jabs, that is displaying a fleshly judgment. To ask others for consensus is a big problem. The enemy uses tactics like these to gain entry on the unsuspecting.

There is the issue of not "touching" those in leadership positions either, yet these are the biggest targets!

As I mentioned about myself (I use my own bad example), I was "opinionated" about a number of things. I was "unimpressed" and "pre-disposed" about certain things. If asked about, I'd tell you about it! It came out a bit smug. Particularly against the backdrop of a basically happy person. (Let's say I "noticed" the contrast). The Lord pointed out that I had become hardened at various time and "exercised" my fleshly judgments (which sets something into motion against your own life and perceptions). It was allowed that I experienced brokenness. Not my first choice!

You can be this way (have this in you) and not really be aware of it. When you're yielding to the Lord, His nature overshadows anything that is your flesh and it isn't until He allows it to come up more frequently, that it is obvious that He is wanting to deal with it. (It was always there, but it took certain "triggers" or situations before you would manifest this way.

When I hear certain things getting thrown out there (not just about regular people, but again ministers of God(!), it betrays these very areas operating in their lives.

Save yourself some trouble and in your prayer closet repent of it and renounce it. Ask God to remove the roots of it in your life. Make sure you're renewed. Ask to see things like He does in these areas. It might take a little time for your "suffer" through it, but who wants to see their own miserable side.

Probably everyone is guilty of this. These are the things that have to get cleaned up before the outpouring.

Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

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