Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

[Frogster]

But the fruit was good.

that pooch is sooo cute! what is his/her name?

 

[gideons300]

amen 2 times in one week!, it must be the Christmas season! luv ya bro, you know I do, even thoygh we spar, and you said good stuff here, vert insightful, thanks! frog.

I guess even I have my moments, LOL. Hope you and your family have a great Christmas.

Blessings,

your friend and comrade in arms (and sometimes we even use then on OTHER people!)

Gids

 

[Frogster]

I guess even I have my moments, LOL. Hope you and your family have a great Christmas.

Blessings,

your friend and comrade in arms (and sometimes we even use then on OTHER people!)

Gids

We are comrades, be blessed, this Christmas, you and you family too..frog.

 

[Alive_Again]

...we are met with with, sorry, but what I now view as redundant reply.

Let's hope that warnings to prevent judgment on those who take up the gavel of the flesh are not met with fingers in the ears.

...But why does that mean I or others can’t doubt, or question, some of these, elaborate stories, just because there are miracles in the bible?

Of course you can doubt some of those signs. But not being convinced does not automatically apply the labels that fly around so easily. Working in signs and wonders does not make anyone a "superman" and it shouldn't make anyone a target for operating in them.

I don't believe in everyone's signs either, but I do know some very real signs occur. What bothers me is when someone I know carries a great anointing gets slapped with the accusation. I know where it comes from and what it generates for the partaker of those trifles. They go down into the innermost parts of the belly and poison the waters.

There are quite a few texts to prove that people, in the church, “from your own number”, men (and I guess women) will arise, and be wolves, and the motive is shown, to draw disciples for themselves.

A theoretical, general accusation without any facts. There are a ton of websites who condemn charismatics in general. Who cares if they have "texts"?

What better way to do that, gather disciples, than present yourself, as this super powerful person, with all kinds of great secrets to the higher spiritual life?

I can't think of a single person who meets the bill. People do have awesome anointings and it does not bode anyone well to take potshots at them.

People have tended to dismiss comments like this to mean that everyone is "off limits". Talk about what they're saying and doing. Don't act like it's amiss because you don't agree. Compare it to the scripture and in a spirit of charity weigh in (if God gives you space).

But if someone "jeers" from the gallery it's a demonic/personal judgment that spreads division among brethren.

Does anybody even read this?

Said by Peter also, making up stories, and greed is the motive, as they collect funds, and sell their wares, books, CD’s, conference fees etc. These that call themselves 'teachers".

We've seen many accusations against people for even selling their books. These things cost money. It's better not to judge the hearts of people who do. It would be far better to retire from such an occupation and get free from the mindset that says "I have to accuse someone of these scriptures".

One thing to consider about those who seem to make big money. They may pay many of their own expenses, and give great sums to the poor. You never see that. God will deal with His own regarding the money. If you don't look, you don't get offended.

 

[TillICollapse]

I don't see a problem with challenging people who make their claims. Put it in the light ... after everything is burned up, what is left, is trustworthy and true One of the beautiful things about the things of God, is that they survive death lol. So examine, examine, examine. Put the Light on it.

HOWEVER ... labeling something without examining it, is not examining or challenging it. Even the things that seem absurd. As mentioned already in this thread ... something like David Koresh, or Joseph Smith, or let's say Heaven's Gate (the comet stuff), etc. Merely saying, "Nope. Not of God" ... doesn't answer the specifics of what is going on there in details. Merely saying, "It's of the enemy," ... again, doesn't answer the specifics. That is not shining a light on something ... that is throwing stones from a distance. Shining a light on something involves the introduction of light into that instance in the first place ... throwing stones from a distance just allows the darkness to continue to confuse and cloud what is inside of it.

So when challenging or examining something (or someone) ... I think it's more helpful (if you actually care to understand what it is you are challenging) to take the time and look it over, all the sides and angles, until it is clear as day what it is. No ambiguity. I have seen reality testify on God's behalf time and time again ... faith turns into fact. What is left after the examination is "real". But that can mean that you too, the examiner, need to be standing under that light when it gets turned on ... so that if you are using any false pretenses to examine by, that your false pretenses can be given over to the flames also. If what you are using to measure things by stands up to the flames (as the things of God do, as far as I can tell lol) ... you are good to go. If they don't, it is often very hard for someone to admit they were wrong about their own measuring stick, so to speak.

To summarize so I'm not too long winded and redundant lol ... if you're going to put someone under the microscope, perhaps holding their hands and joining them under it will actually reveal the truth to you. But when others stand on the outside and just make accusations ... I don't see that as being very fruitful, even if the accusations are true. Again, it's like throwing stones from the stands.

 

[Yitzchak]

I don't see a problem with challenging people who make their claims. Put it in the light ... after everything is burned up, what is left, is trustworthy and true One of the beautiful things about the things of God, is that they survive death lol. So examine, examine, examine. Put the Light on it.

HOWEVER ... labeling something without examining it, is not examining or challenging it. Even the things that seem absurd. As mentioned already in this thread ... something like David Koresh, or Joseph Smith, or let's say Heaven's Gate (the comet stuff), etc. Merely saying, "Nope. Not of God" ... doesn't answer the specifics of what is going on there in details. Merely saying, "It's of the enemy," ... again, doesn't answer the specifics. That is not shining a light on something ... that is throwing stones from a distance. Shining a light on something involves the introduction of light into that instance in the first place ... throwing stones from a distance just allows the darkness to continue to confuse and cloud what is inside of it.

So when challenging or examining something (or someone) ... I think it's more helpful (if you actually care to understand what it is you are challenging) to take the time and look it over, all the sides and angles, until it is clear as day what it is. No ambiguity. I have seen reality testify on God's behalf time and time again ... faith turns into fact. What is left after the examination is "real". But that can mean that you too, the examiner, need to be standing under that light when it gets turned on ... so that if you are using any false pretenses to examine by, that your false pretenses can be given over to the flames also. If what you are using to measure things by stands up to the flames (as the things of God do, as far as I can tell lol) ... you are good to go. If they don't, it is often very hard for someone to admit they were wrong about their own measuring stick, so to speak.

To summarize so I'm not too long winded and redundant lol ... if you're going to put someone under the microscope, perhaps holding their hands and joining them under it will actually reveal the truth to you. But when others stand on the outside and just make accusations ... I don't see that as being very fruitful, even if the accusations are true. Again, it's like throwing stones from the stands.

Some really good points. I agree.

 

[K2K]

To that I say, sure, but we know they are true, because they are in the Bible. But why does that mean I or others can’t doubt, or question, some of these, elaborate stories, just because there are miracles in the bible?

Can we, or shouldn't, or don't we have a right to doubt?

Certainly we should seek understanding, concerning what is happening. Yet there is also a verse concerning love that says. "Love trusts all" or "Love believeth all", depending on the translation. So it is important to realize that we are actually seeking understanding, and not doubting what is told us.

Now Satan is a liar, so he can't be trusted, but that doesn't mean we should act as though someone is a liar. We need to act as though they are not a liar, and yet still seek understanding from the Lord. It is written to take all things to God in prayer. In doing that we will find out if someone is a liar. God will make that judgement for us.

Jesus said He did not judge, but as He heard He judged.

So Jesus did not doubt people, but took all things to the Father in prayer, and He sometimes heard judgements. If we are not doing that, we wind up leaning on our own understanding.

So let's just say that someone claims to be seeing some wierd things with their spiritual eyes. We should not doubt that they are, but we should seek the Lord for understanding about it, and listen to what He tells us.

And even then, if the Lord explains to us that the person is not hearing from Him, or seeing things with their spiritual eyes but is instead just making it up, we still need to listen to the Lord to find out if we need to do anything about it or not.

For example: When I used to have a Christian bookstore, a lady came into the store one day and told me "Thus saith the Lord........" What she said didn't make sense to me, so I instantly asked the Lord about it. He told me that she was not listening to Him. When I asked what I should do about it, He just told me to sit there and smile.

A few weeks later that same lady came into the store again. She told me that God was putting her into deliverance ministry. Then again she told me, "Thus saith the Lord ......" And again I took it to the Lord for understanding. This time He told me that it was from Him, and He told me that He would prove it to me later, and indeed later that day I was meeting to two friends to pray together and one told me the exact same thing she had told me.

Now I asked the Lord why she once said, "Thus saith the Lord" and didn't hear from Him, then said, "thus saith the Lord" and did. He told me that she was not testing the spirits (see 1 Jn 4:1-3). So I questioned the Lord, "And you are putting her into deliverance ministry, Lord", to which He responded, "She'll learn how to tests the spirit in that." I quess she would.

The point is that people are people. Christian don't always test the spirits, but that doesn't mean they are not trying to follow God. Frankly, we just don't know what is going on, so we have to develope our relationship with the Lord. And as a general rule, we don't want to doubt people, we want to trust them. That is the loving thing to do.

Of course we want to be wise also, but "the Lord gives wisdom: from His mouth come knowledge and understanding" (Prov 2:6)


So to summerize: We don't doubt, we trust, because that is the loving thing to do. We try not to act foolishly either, so we seek Wisdom, and Understanding which come from the mouth of God.

 

[TillICollapse]

Some really good points. I agree.

Hey thanks

 

[Source Scripture]

not bad for a man your age!

I prefer to see myself as a fine bottle of vintage wine.

 

[Source Scripture]

Let's hope that warnings to prevent judgment on those who take up the gavel of the flesh are not met with fingers in the ears.
Of course you can doubt some of those signs. But not being convinced does not automatically apply the labels that fly around so easily. Working in signs and wonders does not make anyone a "superman" and it shouldn't make anyone a target for operating in them.

I don't believe in everyone's signs either, but I do know some very real signs occur. What bothers me is when someone I know carries a great anointing gets slapped with the accusation. I know where it comes from and what it generates for the partaker of those trifles. They go down into the innermost parts of the belly and poison the waters.

A theoretical, general accusation without any facts. There are a ton of websites who condemn charismatics in general. Who cares if they have "texts"?
I can't think of a single person who meets the bill. People do have awesome anointings and it does not bode anyone well to take potshots at them.

People have tended to dismiss comments like this to mean that everyone is "off limits". Talk about what they're saying and doing. Don't act like it's amiss because you don't agree. Compare it to the scripture and in a spirit of charity weigh in (if God gives you space).

But if someone "jeers" from the gallery it's a demonic/personal judgment that spreads division among brethren.

Does anybody even read this?
We've seen many accusations against people for even selling their books. These things cost money. It's better not to judge the hearts of people who do. It would be far better to retire from such an occupation and get free from the mindset that says "I have to accuse someone of these scriptures".

One thing to consider about those who seem to make big money. They may pay many of their own expenses, and give great sums to the poor. You never see that. God will deal with His own regarding the money. If you don't look, you don't get offended.
[/quote]
Almost everything said here, has an opposite.

Can signs and wonders also promote supermen? Yes.

You demagogued frogster's statement, by saying "slapped", and besides, accusations can be true, and the "anointed' title is very subjective, many say some are anointed, but they are not, besides, be a as quick to paste a slap on some, other than our friend frogster, as you are to paste the anointed title on others, you will find this to be a more balanced approach to life. The anointed word gets used way too freely in our churches today.

Fine, you don't care about texts, that is already obvious by the lack of them in your post, other than your love reference, forgetting all the rebukes found right in 1 Corinthians.

You imply frogster is demonic, by this so called "jeering". So is slapping ok, or not?

Was frogster wrong, are they selling their info? Raising others that sell, does not prove him wrong.

I notice a lack of scripture here, where frogster posted them, and did a brief expository, and a fine job of using them contextually, sound hermeneutics indeed. I could add more verses also, so if you don't mind, lets have a scriptural discussion, and lets address his verses, thank you, SS.

 

[Source Scripture]

Can we, or shouldn't, or don't we have a right to doubt?

Certainly we should seek understanding, concerning what is happening. Yet there is also a verse concerning love that says. "Love trusts all" or "Love believeth all", depending on the translation. So it is important to realize that we are actually seeking understanding, and not doubting what is told us.

Now Satan is a liar, so he can't be trusted, but that doesn't mean we should act as though someone is a liar. We need to act as though they are not a liar, and yet still seek understanding from the Lord. It is written to take all things to God in prayer. In doing that we will find out if someone is a liar. God will make that judgement for us.

Jesus said He did not judge, but as He heard He judged.

So Jesus did not doubt people, but took all things to the Father in prayer, and He sometimes heard judgements. If we are not doing that, we wind up leaning on our own understanding.

So let's just say that someone claims to be seeing some wierd things with their spiritual eyes. We should not doubt that they are, but we should seek the Lord for understanding about it, and listen to what He tells us.

And even then, if the Lord explains to us that the person is not hearing from Him, or seeing things with their spiritual eyes but is instead just making it up, we still need to listen to the Lord to find out if we need to do anything about it or not.

For example: When I used to have a Christian bookstore, a lady came into the store one day and told me "Thus saith the Lord........" What she said didn't make sense to me, so I instantly asked the Lord about it. He told me that she was not listening to Him. When I asked what I should do about it, He just told me to sit there and smile.

A few weeks later that same lady came into the store again. She told me that God was putting her into deliverance ministry. Then again she told me, "Thus saith the Lord ......" And again I took it to the Lord for understanding. This time He told me that it was from Him, and He told me that He would prove it to me later, and indeed later that day I was meeting to two friends to pray together and one told me the exact same thing she had told me.

Now I asked the Lord why she once said, "Thus saith the Lord" and didn't hear from Him, then said, "thus saith the Lord" and did. He told me that she was not testing the spirits (see 1 Jn 4:1-3). So I questioned the Lord, "And you are putting her into deliverance ministry, Lord", to which He responded, "She'll learn how to tests the spirit in that." I quess she would.

The point is that people are people. Christian don't always test the spirits, but that doesn't mean they are not trying to follow God. Frankly, we just don't know what is going on, so we have to develope our relationship with the Lord. And as a general rule, we don't want to doubt people, we want to trust them. That is the loving thing to do.

Of course we want to be wise also, but "the Lord gives wisdom: from His mouth come knowledge and understanding" (Prov 2:6)


So to summerize: We don't doubt, we trust, because that is the loving thing to do. We try not to act foolishly either, so we seek Wisdom, and Understanding which come from the mouth of God.

Is love to "act" naive? Jesus did not judge people? You may want to dig a little deeper into the scriptures, and Paul himself judged motives too, in fact many of the warning verses from Jesus, Peter, and Paul, force us to make a judgment Trust is earned, we do doubt, you may want to rewrite this post and do some editing, then I will be happy to reply, thank you, SS.

 

[AbbaLove]

To that I say, sure, but we know they are true, because they are in the Bible. But why does that mean I or others can’t doubt, or question, some of these, elaborate stories, just because there are miracles in the bible?

Thanks, frog.

Some of the religious Pharisees apparently thought the "miracles" they kept hearing about were "elaborate stories." In truth they possibly feared Herod more than they feared God.

Why are you equating "elaborate stories" as being on par with supernatural "miracles" of God. Who here doesn't doubt or question some of these "elaborate stories." On the other hand it depends on what you consider an "elaborate story." It might be helpful if you mention a couple examples that you consider an "elaborate story" as opposed to possibly being a God inspired supernatural event-occurrence.

 

[Frogster]

I don't see a problem with challenging people who make their claims. Put it in the light ... after everything is burned up, what is left, is trustworthy and true One of the beautiful things about the things of God, is that they survive death lol. So examine, examine, examine. Put the Light on it.

HOWEVER ... labeling something without examining it, is not examining or challenging it. Even the things that seem absurd. As mentioned already in this thread ... something like David Koresh, or Joseph Smith, or let's say Heaven's Gate (the comet stuff), etc. Merely saying, "Nope. Not of God" ... doesn't answer the specifics of what is going on there in details. Merely saying, "It's of the enemy," ... again, doesn't answer the specifics. That is not shining a light on something ... that is throwing stones from a distance. Shining a light on something involves the introduction of light into that instance in the first place ... throwing stones from a distance just allows the darkness to continue to confuse and cloud what is inside of it.

So when challenging or examining something (or someone) ... I think it's more helpful (if you actually care to understand what it is you are challenging) to take the time and look it over, all the sides and angles, until it is clear as day what it is. No ambiguity. I have seen reality testify on God's behalf time and time again ... faith turns into fact. What is left after the examination is "real". But that can mean that you too, the examiner, need to be standing under that light when it gets turned on ... so that if you are using any false pretenses to examine by, that your false pretenses can be given over to the flames also. If what you are using to measure things by stands up to the flames (as the things of God do, as far as I can tell lol) ... you are good to go. If they don't, it is often very hard for someone to admit they were wrong about their own measuring stick, so to speak.

To summarize so I'm not too long winded and redundant lol ... if you're going to put someone under the microscope, perhaps holding their hands and joining them under it will actually reveal the truth to you. But when others stand on the outside and just make accusations ... I don't see that as being very fruitful, even if the accusations are true. Again, it's like throwing stones from the stands.

well, for the most part, i point out extremes, people saying there are spare body parts in heaven, babies born with glitter dust, people hanging out with angels all day, people hovering over their beds, while angels clean the house, people singing to angels, while thye praise thier beauty, people saying they were with Eligah, and had extended conversations with enoch in this 3 way conversation, while supposedly Enoch said 'the world will see us as "happily re--tarded"......

Others are selling mezuzahs, talits, etc, saying they give spiritual power, others say we should not eat pork, shrimp, lobster, crab, catfish, because of the law...declaring us sinners if we do.


So to say stone throwing, works both ways.

By the way, i am extremely versed, and familar with the Mj movement, so yes, i did "examine" it. And yes, I listen to a check in my spirit, when I hear outlandish tales of people in and out of heaven, seemingly on a regular basis.


So there we have it, I take on what most would agree is wrong, or strange, or unscriptural, and i use text...text...text...


thanks a million, have a great day!


By the way, do you agree with how I used the verses in the OP, and also, why are their those verses in the Bible, if we should not practice them?

 

[Frogster]

Some of the religious Pharisees apparently thought the "miracles" they kept hearing about were "elaborate stories." In truth they possibly feared Herod more than they feared God.

Why are you equating "elaborate stories" as being on par with supernatural "miracles" of God. Who here doesn't doubt or question some of these "elaborate stories." On the other hand it depends on what you consider an "elaborate story." It might be helpful if you mention a couple examples that you consider an "elaborate story" as opposed to possibly being a God inspired supernatural event-occurrence.

I went through it alot already, but you're welcome to read these two threads, where I covered a bunch, they are closed, but you can still read em.

one is the Sid roth says thread, and the other is the rick joyner has more revelations thread.

 

[Frogster]

. duplicate.

 

[Alive_Again]

Can signs and wonders also promote supermen? Yes.

Anybody can get a big head and no doubt a number of people have been in a position to being humbled (no doubt all of us for even small things). It's not for us (your flesh) to question their heart motive. That's all I'm saying.

You demagogued frogster's statement, by saying "slapped", and besides, accusations can be true, and` the "anointed' title is very subjective, many say some are anointed, but they are not, besides, be a as quick to paste a slap on some, other than our friend frogster,

I assume you haven't read the "Sid Roth" thread with all of the jeery, accusative, 'make your brother look bad' kind of comments that drew the subsequent (flameless - no report) thread from a Mod. This was designed to curtain all of these activities that are so prevalent (suprisingly in the Spirit Filled section).

This thread was immediately forthcoming and seems to be a "test" to explore the parameters of (yet) still talking about our brothers and sisters and (seemingly) maintaining the right to question the motives of the heart. Howbeit, it is "theoretical" (with no names mentioned).

As a progression, I thought this was obvious (no intended slight against the Frog-man). If you didn't take part in those threads, I suppose you have an incomplete picture.

...as you are to paste the anointed title on others, you will find this to be a more balanced approach to life. The anointed word gets used way too freely in our churches today.

That's the odd thing about those who employ negative criticisms against very anointed ministries (questioning their heart motives), they say this very thing. While having an anointing would not excuse sin in someone's life, it does not give someone a right to condemn their ministry. If say (Benny Hinn) (fearfully) stood up an made a dozen presumptuous prophesies (I'm not saying he has), that would not make him a "false prophet". It would also not invalidate his ministry. The power of the anointing on his ministry (for the times I have seen it) it is awesome. It would mean that there was some deception involved. We are not free to condemn others because we perceive what they say to be "trumped up" or because it project "power".

The enemy has a hard time getting to people like that so he affects those around him. Someone is near by to spread an accusation against him. I personally don't care how big a house the ministry own (that he lives in). If a ministry owns a house, when it sells it (if God is in it), it makes a profit. Some of the best investments are real estate. They exceed stocks by a long shot. We don't know the circumstances, and he is not our servant. You should leave that in the hands of the Lord. When you (your flesh) makes a judgment about it, you pretend that you do (know the circumstances).

You might say that it would seem to be better for certain high profile ministries to not live extravagantly, because it tends to draw comments (from the fleshly church). I would agree with that myself (generally speaking).

Fine, you don't care about texts, that is already obvious by the lack of them in your post, other than your love reference, forgetting all the rebukes found right in 1 Corinthians.

I never said I don't care about texts. The point was made in that they exist, but I can dig up plenty of them about Spirit filled people too and we don't even have to do any real study to dismiss that. We've all experienced it here (except for the few who come here insistent that they got it all when they were water baptized).

The "rebukes" in scripture are correct in their setting, but they don't allow man to apply (or slap them) them on someone at will.

You imply frogster is demonic, by this so called "jeering". So is slapping ok, or not?

I implied that labels are readily "slapped on" ministers of God (for not agreeing with them). You should read the Sid Roth bashing thread that started all of this and still want me to answer for calling this behavior on the carpet, I'll PM you. (I'm not demonizing frogster.) The whole things starts on the wrong foot and is widely amiss.

It should be seen that when people get in their flesh and offer these things up, they are serving up a plate of cookies baked by devils for anyone to freely partake of. (It's not the Lord doing this, leading people to violate His own Word.) It's about time to rise up and speak against (not just me either) the free run of these types of comments or threads. It's not a flame. The mods got involved to stop the insults on these ministers. We'd hope the scripture would suffice, but people have their passages that supposedly justify doing it. You can bet Paul received the judgments he gave out.

Everyone who does not approve of this behavior should immediately speak out against it. As Kat Kerr said, Heaven views it as though you approve if you don't speak out against it.

 

[Alive_Again]

• ...Certainly we should seek understanding, concerning what is happening.
• ...So it is important to realize that we are actually seeking understanding, and not doubting what is told us.
• ...We need to act as though they are not a liar, and yet still seek understanding from the Lord.
• ...Jesus said He did not judge, but as He heard He judged.
• ...So Jesus...took all things to the Father in prayer, and He sometimes heard judgements.
• ...If we are not doing that, we wind up leaning on our own understanding.

Excellent...

...We should not doubt that they are, but we should seek the Lord for understanding about it, and listen to what He tells us.

And even then, if the Lord explains to us that the person is not hearing from Him, or seeing things with their spiritual eyes but is instead just making it up, we still need to listen to the Lord to find out if we need to do anything about it or not.

This is how we approach stuff that comes from the Body (not the world). We receive ministry with all readiness. When your pastor gets up to preach, you don't raise an eyebrow and look to shoot him down on the first thing you don't understand. You extend "charity" toward what he says. You count on the Holy Spirit to give you a sense if something is amiss.

There are times when things sound a little way out, but check twice before speaking out.

...The point is that people are people. Christian don't always test the spirits, but that doesn't mean they are not trying to follow God.

That's the dangerous thing about knocking the usual favorites in this section on the forum (Hinn, Meyer, etc.) They really ARE anointed. They are exercising their ministry. Saul was out to kill David and threw a javelin at his own son. Yet David recognized him for the anointing on his life. These guys are in no way to be compared to Saul, yet we are given an example in the Word about touching the anointing. (Saul didn't get it either regarding David, or he would have feared.)

...And as a general rule, we don't want to doubt people, we want to trust them. That is the loving thing to do.

If everyone reaps what they sows, is it not better to encourage people to "Stop!"?

...We try not to act foolishly either, so we seek Wisdom, and Understanding which come from the mouth of God.

So you trust God for a sense of what is good and evil. People say they do and yet VERY anointed ministries have swords drawn against them. Very dangerous!

 

[TillICollapse]

well, for the most part, i point out extremes, people saying there are spare body parts in heaven, babies born with glitter dust, people hanging out with angels all day, people hovering over their beds, while angels clean the house, people singing to angels, while thye praise thier beauty, people saying they were with Eligah, and had extended conversations with enoch in this 3 way conversation, while supposedly Enoch said 'the world will see us as "happily re--tarded"......

Others are selling mezuzahs, talits, etc, saying they give spiritual power, others say we should not eat pork, shrimp, lobster, crab, catfish, because of the law...declaring us sinners if we do.


So to say stone throwing, works both ways.

By the way, i am extremely versed, and familar with the Mj movement, so yes, i did "examine" it. And yes, I listen to a check in my spirit, when I hear outlandish tales of people in and out of heaven, seemingly on a regular basis.


So there we have it, I take on what most would agree is wrong, or strange, or unscriptural, and i use text...text...text...


thanks a million, have a great day!


By the way, do you agree with how I used the verses in the OP, and also, why are their those verses in the Bible, if we should not practice them?

Well first, a qualifier: when I say "examining" ... I am really referring to the things a person would actually care about wanting to know the truth on. I'm not talking about passing opinions where in an instant we say, "Yup," and "Nope," and "Ridiculous !" and "Awesome !" over stuff we don't really care about. I'm talking about things that you (a generic you) would actually want to know the truth on, and not just be content with an opinion. For example, a passing opinion on Bigfoot without knowing anything about the theories, attempts at evidence, etc ... is just that, a passing opinion. It's an "unthrown stone" you may simply look at for a moment and then set down, and thats that lol. If you proceed to defend your opinion one way or another without attempting to actually find out the truth of the matter in some form or fashion ... now we may be in the "throwing stones" territory. Even if your opinion turns out to be correct, it could still be based on ignorance, and not "light".

The thing with the delusions and lies and tricks of the darkness ... at least in my experience ... is that they continue to bear their fruit unless Light is shown amongst them. Accusations against them don't cut it. Accusations may make them flee for a moment and find somewhere else to set up shop, but it doesn't replace the issue with the good stuff. Kind of like the unclean spirit that leaves, but comes back and finds the house still empty and makes it worse than it was before. So pointing out falsehood, or accusing falsehood ... that is why I say it's like throwing stones. It may point out some falsehoods, but may not introduce the TRUTH into the situation to replace it for those involved.

So in examining and challenging something, if you really want to know the truth of a matter ... I think if you (again, a generic "you") stay past the point of burning away the stuff that was off and wrong, to the point where things get resurrected and what remains after the challenging is revealed ... you will have a greater understanding of what is "true" and not just what isn't.

As far as using the verses the way you did ... if you're specifically talking about those who claim all manner of things in order to gain greed ... I wasn't really addressing greed in particular. I was just talking about examining truth and claims as a whole.

As far as using scripture in order to verify and test things ... I personally don't use scripture or my understanding of it as a first-line-filter to understand reality. I don't try and prove scripture to be true, or prove a version of Christianity to be true. Personally, I seek the Kingdom of God, the Lord, the things of the Spirit, and I try to understand reality with as many tools as I can. But I'm not a "scripture first" person. I sometimes use them, but not as my main filter. Reality is there, I am in it, and certain walls of disbelief came crashing down a long time ago that I never thought would ... and I had to either come face to face with reality and how I thought it was supposed to be, or start to live in denial of it lol. In my opinion and experience, reality and the truths of God do not conflict with each other ... they testify in both directions. I have been continually amazed to see that experiences in reality were in alignment with scripture, even when I wasn't aware of the scripture in the first place. In other words, I experienced the reality of some things before I was aware it was up for debate lol. I have not had a 3-way with Elijah or whatever ... but I have done one of the extreme things you mentioned above, and I would not have believed it had I not seen and experienced it with my own eyes. I would have kept it up there in the realm of "Maybe, whatever, I don't care."

 

[BenAdam]

Just because someone is sincere in their false prophecy, doesn't make it ok.

The first time, sure, the second ok, but by the 10th time, they lack honesty in that they keep doing something that they have been wrong so many times about.

 

[Alive_Again]

Who's to say they made 10 mistaken prophecies? People make these gross assumptions. How many times have you made the wrong assertion since you've been a believer about what God was or was going to do? I thought we'd be out of here decades ago (rapture)!

I'm sure we've all made enough to never speak again if they were to line them all up. I've eaten plenty of words and hopefully, am more reserved about deductive reasoning. In the search for understanding, we all form some deductive reasonings. We all know in part (even when we do know). So why is everyone such an expert in reading the motives of the heart in some of these ministers?

Why is it so important to them to make it a lifestyle? It's because it is a stronghold. Someone can bite their tongue for a while but it always seems to burst out like a flood.

I like what Kat Kerr said about this (that God told her). "If they're for me, they're not against Me." She was speaking about Copeland and Benny and Joyce. She said, "If you knew what some of these people gave of their lives for God." Literally pouring it out for the kingdom. These are some of the very things that are going to be judged.

We don't have to take up the burden of "pointing out people's mispoken words" at various times of their lives. It's like a late night talk show and is very worldly.

Their words (and believers who do the same thing) become tools for the enemy. It affects their well being (or will try to) and you loose the very same thing in your own life (because of the Word).

If someone was bold enough to prophesy something publicly, you might state (if the Lord gave you space) that you don't agree with that statement. Isn't a love motive though have a greater desire to cover a transgression (if there is one)? If someone (your friend was intending to receive ministry from) asked, you might share that (if you were impressed to). You might also check their ministry and see if they're getting a lot of people saved, filled, and healed. Are they giving their lives to spreading the Word, taking people out of bondage from law into grace?

To speak against these people invites big trouble!! It's easy to verify that Copeland, Hinn, and Joyce are all doing this. You might not agree with everyone's doctrine (I don't), but that doesn't make these a "false believer" or a "false prophet".