Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

[Frogster]

I just thought of a new idea for a game: Hungry Hungry Hypocrites.

good one, bro!

 

[Frogster]

[

 

[Frogster]

andrea - love you too Frog, sometimes the people I have the most disagreements with are the ones I find that touch my heart. Really. I'm sorry to offend you but I do love sharing Christ and our love of His glory, grace and majesty with you. Have a blessed New Years, andrea

thanks, be belssed too, i enjoy our chats, but can you just let me know if you believe in crying statues, bloody hosts in mouths, and beads that trun to a gold color, while praying to mary, and Christians that levitate, and a spare body part room in heaven, just so i understand you clearly, if you could just give a yes or no, that would be great. frog.


help lil froggy..keep it to the questions..thanks!

 

[Frogster]

I guess we have a miracle universalism type of doctrine now, hey, the frog, has to believe in the other Christians absurd, if i want him to believe my absurdity!


I can't so no way to tears, as i preach sparkles.

If i do, i will be in the Ajax 777 game, he was right!

 

[contango]

I believe that supernatural events can happen, and that both God and Satan can perform what we would call miracles.

If we hear of a "miracle" in some far away place the obvious question is verification. Anyone can make outlandish claims so we need to know if the event in question actually happened. Then we need to know whether it was truly a miracle or a natural occurrence (to take an arguably silly example, a statue "crying" could be caused by a leaky roof or by a human rigging up a water supply to draw the crowds).

The fact someone says they are a Christian doesn't mean they are a Christian. Jesus made that very clear in Matt 7:21-23.

It's also pointless to say that because we believe in one thing we must believe in other things. I believe in prophetic words because I have personally witnessed them, in ways that couldn't possibly have been down to natural knowledge. I also believe "prophetic words" are sometimes fine-sounding generic observations that sound good but are empty.

Arguing "if you believe in this then you must believe in that" when the two are only loosely related is somewhat akin to saying "If you believe in dragons you must believe in unicorns". Even saying "if you believe you saw a dragon you must believe I saw a dragon" doesn't work because of the simple matter of credibility. I know what I saw, I don't know what you saw, and so it's perfectly valid to say "I doubt until I have seen evidence". I've seen something with my own eyes so I believe, and on that basis if I have seen a dragon I can accept that you may have seen a dragon but won't automatically believe that you have seen a dragon.

I don't expect people to assume everything is good just because I say it is. The prophetic words I have personally seen spoken and received are useful to me. You have no way of knowing if they happened at all, if they were useful, and if they were based on human knowledge or divine revelation. So their value to you is only as good as my credibility. If you are minded to trust me, you will accept what I say. If you are minded to doubt me, you will doubt what I say. Since you have no way of knowing I would expect you to file my reports of such prophetic words in the "unknown" pile.

 

[Andrea411]

ask rodney!

would you bet about rodney, on dust, feathers, or gems, not to mention what he calls ,"muffins with the angels", all in a derogatory, against it manner? He is against all this angel friendship familiarity too, I will, what say you?

so, still, no text to counter my text, just for the record, that means you are not making a Biblical counter to what I say, fine, but if it is not biblical it is????

I used text to show there are story tellers, fakes, angel worshippers, etc. Can you counter that with text?

Muffins?? made me laugh…. I had not heard that. I am a follower of R.B. but I do respect his ministry for the revival it has brought. As I respect 'Way of the Master' (Kirk Cameron, Ray Comfort) for the same reason… very different approaches… I respect them for their commitment to Christ and souls saved.
I know a person who died (heart attack) he said he had breakfast with Jesus. IDK… what do you say to people who have had these experiences?
A pastor I know said he was on a beach when he turned and a fellow was sitting on a bench with him. The guy said you need to forgive (so-n-so), the pastor closed his eyes at the memory of the hurt he'd received from so-n-so. The guy was gone… it was a big beach… no way no time, he thinks it was an angel. He went right to a phone called so-n-so and the guy was already crying - saying how sorry he was and he was feeling so guilty it was tormenting him. He really needed forgiveness to move on…. just saying'

Another friend, I know well, she and her teen daughter broke down on a dark road, a very bad section in the outside lane on a blind curve. They had to get out of the car bc it was so dangerous…. a man came out of the hedge on the highway… didn't say a word, pushed the car diagonally across the road onto the shoulder. When she turned to thank him he was gone. Now the Lord could have started her car, or made sure it had enough energy to get to the shoulder, but then she wouldn't have this great story to share.

I don't speak to angels, never saw one, but Paul's admonition about them has left me fearful. That is not a good thing, and something I need to resolve.
…...My experience in the LDS (Jos.Smith saw an angel) and seeing what harm can come through angels, SDA (Ellen White), also Islam is a result of angels talking to man. I know angels never bring attention to themselves, but alway come to bring Christ glory. I do believe I have an angel and that they protect our property… not sure why but it is a good thing.
The only time I addressed my angel was to request he go to my sister who looked like she had breast cancer…. it ended up being nothing…. but I think even then I asked the Lord to ask my guardian angel to go to her for awhile… the scriptures do say Jesus created the seen and the unseen… there is a whole invisible world that can become visible when they want…. so angels are not evil and should not be spoken of as evil. It is man that is evil. All the evil angels are bound in hell till the end… but I don't have to tell you how deception could come in through speaking to angels (actually demons).
…….So I am very cautious about what these people about speaking to angels and that their good intentions may be what draws a demon to them, trying to stop the work of the Lord. I think that is what happened at Lakeland Fla. with Todd Bentley. I was there….. he talked about Emma the angel and his vision and other stuff… but you know it was like we didn't hear it… even as I remembered it. My friends and I were so busy praising the Lord and praying with people. Real healings were happening…. apparently Todd got full of himself… ticks me off… how do these people who see the Lord using them get so full of themselves and not be humbled is beyond me…. but then i'm not being attacked bc I'm front and center in a revival meeting. Pastors, teachers and evangelists are far more likely to be Satan's targets then a duck farmer in NJ… LOL. Thats funny.
God bless, andrea

PS: do you have the link for RB… refuting that stuff… I'd really like to hear how he puts it and how he discerns the false from the real. Does he name anyone in particular?

 

[Frogster]

Muffins?? made me laugh…. I had not heard that. I am a follower of R.B. but I do respect his ministry for the revival it has brought. As I respect 'Way of the Master' (Kirk Cameron, Ray Comfort) for the same reason… very different approaches… I respect them for their commitment to Christ and souls saved.
I know a person who died (heart attack) he said he had breakfast with Jesus. IDK… what do you say to people who have had these experiences?
A pastor I know said he was on a beach when he turned and a fellow was sitting on a bench with him. The guy said you need to forgive (so-n-so), the pastor closed his eyes at the memory of the hurt he'd received from so-n-so. The guy was gone… it was a big beach… no way no time, he thinks it was an angel. He went right to a phone called so-n-so and the guy was already crying - saying how sorry he was and he was feeling so guilty it was tormenting him. He really needed forgiveness to move on…. just saying'

Another friend, I know well, she and her teen daughter broke down on a dark road, a very bad section in the outside lane on a blind curve. They had to get out of the car bc it was so dangerous…. a man came out of the hedge on the highway… didn't say a word, pushed the car diagonally across the road onto the shoulder. When she turned to thank him he was gone. Now the Lord could have started her car, or made sure it had enough energy to get to the shoulder, but then she wouldn't have this great story to share.

I don't speak to angels, never saw one, but Paul's admonition about them has left me fearful. That is not a good thing, and something I need to resolve.
…...My experience in the LDS (Jos.Smith saw an angel) and seeing what harm can come through angels, SDA (Ellen White), also Islam is a result of angels talking to man. I know angels never bring attention to themselves, but alway come to bring Christ glory. I do believe I have an angel and that they protect our property… not sure why but it is a good thing.
The only time I addressed my angel was to request he go to my sister who looked like she had breast cancer…. it ended up being nothing…. but I think even then I asked the Lord to ask my guardian angel to go to her for awhile… the scriptures do say Jesus created the seen and the unseen… there is a whole invisible world that can become visible when they want…. so angels are not evil and should not be spoken of as evil. It is man that is evil. All the evil angels are bound in hell till the end… but I don't have to tell you how deception could come in through speaking to angels (actually demons).
…….So I am very cautious about what these people about speaking to angels and that their good intentions may be what draws a demon to them, trying to stop the work of the Lord. I think that is what happened at Lakeland Fla. with Todd Bentley. I was there….. he talked about Emma the angel and his vision and other stuff… but you know it was like we didn't hear it… even as I remembered it. My friends and I were so busy praising the Lord and praying with people. Real healings were happening…. apparently Todd got full of himself… ticks me off… how do these people who see the Lord using them get so full of themselves and not be humbled is beyond me…. but then i'm not being attacked bc I'm front and center in a revival meeting. Pastors, teachers and evangelists are far more likely to be Satan's targets then a duck farmer in NJ… LOL. Thats funny.
God bless, andrea

PS: do you have the link for RB… refuting that stuff… I'd really like to hear how he puts it and how he discerns the false from the real. Does he name anyone in particular?

Rodeny has said several times, he is not into glitter, fake gems, feathers, or muffins with the angels, that is a factoid. And the delivery of his words, left no room for doubt, as to what he meant.

well, did you believe in the Emma, and Hunk angles, or not? it's hard to tell reading this.

 

[Frogster]

I believe that supernatural events can happen, and that both God and Satan can perform what we would call miracles.

If we hear of a "miracle" in some far away place the obvious question is verification. Anyone can make outlandish claims so we need to know if the event in question actually happened. Then we need to know whether it was truly a miracle or a natural occurrence (to take an arguably silly example, a statue "crying" could be caused by a leaky roof or by a human rigging up a water supply to draw the crowds).

The fact someone says they are a Christian doesn't mean they are a Christian. Jesus made that very clear in Matt 7:21-23.

It's also pointless to say that because we believe in one thing we must believe in other things. I believe in prophetic words because I have personally witnessed them, in ways that couldn't possibly have been down to natural knowledge. I also believe "prophetic words" are sometimes fine-sounding generic observations that sound good but are empty.

Arguing "if you believe in this then you must believe in that" when the two are only loosely related is somewhat akin to saying "If you believe in dragons you must believe in unicorns". Even saying "if you believe you saw a dragon you must believe I saw a dragon" doesn't work because of the simple matter of credibility. I know what I saw, I don't know what you saw, and so it's perfectly valid to say "I doubt until I have seen evidence". I've seen something with my own eyes so I believe, and on that basis if I have seen a dragon I can accept that you may have seen a dragon but won't automatically believe that you have seen a dragon.

I don't expect people to assume everything is good just because I say it is. The prophetic words I have personally seen spoken and received are useful to me. You have no way of knowing if they happened at all, if they were useful, and if they were based on human knowledge or divine revelation. So their value to you is only as good as my credibility. If you are minded to trust me, you will accept what I say. If you are minded to doubt me, you will doubt what I say. Since you have no way of knowing I would expect you to file my reports of such prophetic words in the "unknown" pile.

but your missing my point.

what would you say to the catholic, if you did not believe in crying statues, all while believing in glitter flakes?

 

[Andrea411]

Rodeny has said several times, he is not into glitter, fake gems, feathers, or muffins with the angels, that is a factoid. And the delivery of his words, left no room for doubt, as to what he meant.

well, did you believe in the Emma, and Hunk angles, or not? it's hard to tell reading this.

I don't think you read my posts or you would know my answer….

 

[contango]

but your missing my point.

what would you say to the catholic, if you did not believe in crying statues, all while believing in glitter flakes?

I'd say I don't believe in them.

If all I'm doing is saying "I heard story A, I heard story B, I believe story A, I don't believe story B" then it's reasonable to ask on what basis I choose to believe or disbelieve stories I can't verify.

I think a lot of your questioning comes from a false dichotomy. I don't have to put everything into a "believe" or "disbelieve" pile, it's perfectly acceptable to say "I don't know".

So to answer your questions I do believe in prophetic words because I have personally seen them, but I don't believe everything uttered after "Thus saith the LORD" is necessarily anything to do with God. I believe miracles are possible but I don't automatically assume any story of a miracle is true or false.

 

[Frogster]

I don't think you read my posts or you would know my answer….

well...i mean, why ignore emma? I mean if you're at this meeting, where angel friendship was promoted, didn't that make you have cause to question it?

so it sounds like you did not beleive in the emma thing?

 

[Frogster]

I'd say I don't believe in them.

If all I'm doing is saying "I heard story A, I heard story B, I believe story A, I don't believe story B" then it's reasonable to ask on what basis I choose to believe or disbelieve stories I can't verify.

I think a lot of your questioning comes from a false dichotomy. I don't have to put everything into a "believe" or "disbelieve" pile, it's perfectly acceptable to say "I don't know".

So to answer your questions I do believe in prophetic words because I have personally seen them, but I don't believe everything uttered after "Thus saith the LORD" is necessarily anything to do with God. I believe miracles are possible but I don't automatically assume any story of a miracle is true or false.

but what about the simple fact, that story A and B sound the same?

it's not like your case would be for healings, or something biblically sound, while telling B, that he is absurd, or not scriptural.

see what I mean, both are arguing for the absurd.

I am not calling you absurd, I am just saying that this would be a rather fun chat to listen too, 2 people arguing for their absurdidty, while saying the other guy is absured, while A makes like he is not.

 

[TillICollapse]

but what about the simple fact, that story A and B sound the same?

it's not like your case would be for healings, or something biblically sound, while telling B, that he is absurd, or not scriptural.

see what I mean, both are arguing for the absurd.

I am not calling you absurd, I am just saying that this would be a rather fun chat to listen too, 2 people arguing for their absurdidty, while saying the other guy is absured, while A makes like he is not.

The No True Scotsman fallacy argument in a nutshell.

"No Scotsman would ever claim that scripture means that."
"I claim that scripture means that, and I'm a Scotsman."
"Well then, you're not a TRUE Scotsman ;-)"

Just substitute Scotsman for Christian/believer/anointed/prophet/whatever ... and substitute scripture for glitter/statues/healings/tongues/canon/non-canon/whatever. And many of us view those who attempt to use scripture alone to prove what they are, or aren't, as falling into the same absurdity.

 

[contango]

but what about the simple fact, that story A and B sound the same?

it's not like your case would be for healings, or something biblically sound, while telling B, that he is absurd, or not scriptural.

see what I mean, both are arguing for the absurd.

I am not calling you absurd, I am just saying that this would be a rather fun chat to listen too, 2 people arguing for their absurdidty, while saying the other guy is absured, while A makes like he is not.

Of course, if both parties insist that the only options are 100% belief or 100% disbelief it would be comical. If both parties can accept that uncertainty is a valid option the hilarity disappears.

In that regard the discussion is no different to so many others on a multitude of topics where each side believes they are 100% correct and therefore everyone else is 100% wrong. Watching two strawmen argue may be entertaining from a distance but is ultimately pointless.

 

[Andrea411]

well...i mean, why ignore emma? I mean if you're at this meeting, where angel friendship was promoted, didn't that make you have cause to question it?

so it sounds like you did not beleive in the emma thing?

No - the whole Emma thing was strange, so were 'financial angels'… sounded self-serving. But I did not accuse him of lying… I didn't know what to make of it at the time. He wasn't asking for agreement. I was explaining that just bc TB was being deceived did not mean the whole meeting was a deception. There were very real people being touched and brought to the Lord. I think the Lord often works despite us… the point being BECAUSE the Lord was moving I think there was more of a chance the enemy was attacking and TB and others should have been aware of that…. but it was not like TB was asking people to come forward and be touched by Emma… wasn't like that. I've seen people criticizing Lakeland bc of Emma/angels and it was a very small portion of the whole event. It wasn't like a teaching seminar where you take notes, more like a concert of praise and worship…. people needing healing etc etc
If I went to a church today and Bentley showed up and said those same things, I would probably leave. I have left more then one meeting where I was uncomfortable with the speaker… I expect he has been re-examining his theology…. he was quite the topic of conversation on many forums for some time. He was being mentored last I heard…. I found the whole thing very disappointing… it should have glorified the Lord and bc of one man's weaknesses it did the opposite. And bc of so many who jump on the bandwagon to point and hoot… like a John MacArthur… look see how false they ALL are…. nothing like giving chum to sharks...

 

[TillICollapse]

Of course, if both parties insist that the only options are 100% belief or 100% disbelief it would be comical. If both parties can accept that uncertainty is a valid option the hilarity disappears.

In that regard the discussion is no different to so many others on a multitude of topics where each side believes they are 100% correct and therefore everyone else is 100% wrong. Watching two strawmen argue may be entertaining from a distance but is ultimately pointless.

I can't hardly even watch, with any seriousness, politicians debate, talk, or give commentary because of all the strawmen and fallacies that get slung all over the place, while people eat it up. It is almost literally like watching people fling feces at each other lol.

 

[contango]

I can't hardly even watch, with any seriousness, politicians debate, talk, or give commentary because of all the strawmen and fallacies that get slung all over the place, while people eat it up. It is almost literally like watching people fling feces at each other lol.

So many arguments turn into strawman battles, which is frustrating. It happens here, it happens in politics, it happens everywhere. It's easier to knock down a strawman than to address a real issue, and it's easier to say "I think X, you think Y, therefore you are wrong and nothing you say has any merit" then it is to look at Y to see if any part of it has merit.

If I say "I think X, you think Y, therefore everything you say is wrong" and refuse to listen to you, I shouldn't be surprised if you return the compliment and refuse to listen to me.

 

[Alive_Again]

An Example of Reviewing Claims Made by Ministers (in this case children.)

How would you judge? It should be that we be open and impartial when considering the validity of people's claims. If you're just arguing a side, then maybe you've stopped striving for the truth.

One example of (IMO obvious deception) is one of the apparitions of "Mary" at Fatima. Some in the church run toward it and trust in the Vatican to validate it. Every believer should be able to receive some guidance about things like this. For those who embrace it outright, they are those who would be more apt to be deceived. For those who dismiss it without receiving supernatural guidance, are also missing the mark.

The Consecration of Russia

"On June 13, 1929, while Sister Lucy was at the novitiate of the Dorotheans at Tuy, Spain, Our Lady fulfilled Her promise of July 13, 1917: "I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia ..." Sister Lucy writes1 that, as she was praying by herself in the convent chapel at midnight with only the sanctuary lamp lit:"

(Here's the implied sign...)

"Suddenly, the whole chapel lit up with a supernatural light and on the altar appeared a cross of light which reached the ceiling. In a clearer light, on the upper part of the cross, could be seen the face of a man with His body to the waist, on His chest a dove, equally luminous; and nailed to the cross, the body of another man. A little below the waist (of Christ on the cross), suspended in the air, could be seen a Chalice and a large Host, onto which some drops of blood were falling, which flowed from the face of the Crucified One and from the wound in His breast. Running down over the Host, these drops fell into the Chalice."

"Under the right arm of the cross was Our Lady with Her Immaculate Heart in Her hand ... (She appeared as Our Lady of Fatima, with Her Immaculate Heart in Her left hand, without sword or roses, but with a crown of thorns and flames). Under the left arm [of the cross], in large letters, like crystalline water which flowed over the altar, these words were formed: "Grace and Mercy". I understood that the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity was shown to me, and I received lights about this mystery which I am not permitted to reveal."

(Here's the important part -- the message.)

"Our Lady then said to Sister Lucy:"

"The moment has come when God asks the Holy Father to make, in union with all the bishops of the world, the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means. So numerous are the souls which the justice of God condemns for sins committed against Me, that I come to ask for reparation. Sacrifice yourself for this intention and pray."

Here's some scripture that I believe demonstrates that the sign and message is false:

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:9-11

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
John 1:17

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 4:15-16

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Acts 4:12

I believe there are many more scriptures against this "revelation" and would NOT be swayed by the manner that they were presented. Further statements made by "Mary" (I believe) are also heretical and I would present them if anyone else was interested or needed further convincing.

 

[TillICollapse]

So many arguments turn into strawman battles, which is frustrating. It happens here, it happens in politics, it happens everywhere. It's easier to knock down a strawman than to address a real issue, and it's easier to say "I think X, you think Y, therefore you are wrong and nothing you say has any merit" then it is to look at Y to see if any part of it has merit.

If I say "I think X, you think Y, therefore everything you say is wrong" and refuse to listen to you, I shouldn't be surprised if you return the compliment and refuse to listen to me.

What's frustrating is when someone is focussed on and/or using a strawman, but doesn't realize they are doing it lol. It's one thing if a person knowingly goes that route (which is often used to just manipulate a crowd to their side) because then it's just dirty and playing off of ignorance and is intellectually dishonest. But it's another when a person doesn't realize they are doing it, and thinks they are doing something beneficial and good by focussing on strawmen lol.

Two of my favorites:

 

[Frogster]

No - the whole Emma thing was strange, so were 'financial angels'… sounded self-serving. But I did not accuse him of lying… I didn't know what to make of it at the time. He wasn't asking for agreement. I was explaining that just bc TB was being deceived did not mean the whole meeting was a deception. There were very real people being touched and brought to the Lord. I think the Lord often works despite us… the point being BECAUSE the Lord was moving I think there was more of a chance the enemy was attacking and TB and others should have been aware of that…. but it was not like TB was asking people to come forward and be touched by Emma… wasn't like that. I've seen people criticizing Lakeland bc of Emma/angels and it was a very small portion of the whole event. It wasn't like a teaching seminar where you take notes, more like a concert of praise and worship…. people needing healing etc etc
If I went to a church today and Bentley showed up and said those same things, I would probably leave. I have left more then one meeting where I was uncomfortable with the speaker… I expect he has been re-examining his theology…. he was quite the topic of conversation on many forums for some time. He was being mentored last I heard…. I found the whole thing very disappointing… it should have glorified the Lord and bc of one man's weaknesses it did the opposite. And bc of so many who jump on the bandwagon to point and hoot… like a John MacArthur… look see how false they ALL are…. nothing like giving chum to sharks...

ohhh my..soooo, please look at the red words above, you are now doing what you don't like me doing, calling something for what it was, or is, making a judgment, take a good look at the words in red, be blesssed, thanks! frog....