Can I explain our imperfect world?

[Sprout]

(I'm not sure if this is in the right place, so hopefully a mod can move it if it would be better somewhere else!) I'm studying philosophy of religion at school, and I'm finding it really interesting. But we were talking about the start of Genesis, and had the predictable debate "If God is omniscient and omnipotent why didn't He stop Adam and Eve sinning, and keep the world perfect". I don't see that omniscience and omnipotence can go entirely hand in hand (because then God is limited by what He knows - if He always knew that Adam and Eve would take the fruit, He could do nothing to stop it, and is therefore not omnipotent). But...I think this is a reasonable explanation, for someone who has only recently opened up to the Christian faith, and studied philosophy for less than two months... God created a perfect world. He created sky and sea, and night and day, and animals and plants. And then He created humans, but He made them in His image. God knew that humans would be like God on earth, and would hav dominion over the world He had created. He knew this, because it was meant to be. But God cannot stand sin. He cannot understand it, and He cannot even begin to comprehend it - because His nature is so very different to it. He could not see that Adam and Eve would take the fruit. He could not prevent it from happening because He did not know that it would happen. From then on, the world was imperfect, because Satan had been allowed into the perfect world, and had spoiled it. Humans, because of the choice that God had given them, had ruined their future, and God's plans. Now God cannot recreate the perfect world He made to start with, because of us, and because of Satan. He still cannot understand evil, and so He cannot prevent all bad things from happening. He can, and does, give us the tools to drive evil away, and He influences events so that they happen as they should happen according to how God knows the world will be, but He still cannot always get it right, because Satan has a chance to make things go wrong. I know this is rather rambling, but I'd like to see what other people think. Challenge my argument, if you want - I'm sure it's not foolproof.

 

[Armistead]

(I'm not sure if this is in the right place, so hopefully a mod can move it if it would be better somewhere else!) I'm studying philosophy of religion at school, and I'm finding it really interesting. But we were talking about the start of Genesis, and had the predictable debate "If God is omniscient and omnipotent why didn't He stop Adam and Eve sinning, and keep the world perfect". I don't see that omniscience and omnipotence can go entirely hand in hand (because then God is limited by what He knows - if He always knew that Adam and Eve would take the fruit, He could do nothing to stop it, and is therefore not omnipotent). But...I think this is a reasonable explanation, for someone who has only recently opened up to the Christian faith, and studied philosophy for less than two months... God created a perfect world. He created sky and sea, and night and day, and animals and plants. And then He created humans, but He made them in His image. God knew that humans would be like God on earth, and would hav dominion over the world He had created. He knew this, because it was meant to be. But God cannot stand sin. He cannot understand it, and He cannot even begin to comprehend it - because His nature is so very different to it. He could not see that Adam and Eve would take the fruit. He could not prevent it from happening because He did not know that it would happen. From then on, the world was imperfect, because Satan had been allowed into the perfect world, and had spoiled it. Humans, because of the choice that God had given them, had ruined their future, and God's plans. Now God cannot recreate the perfect world He made to start with, because of us, and because of Satan. He still cannot understand evil, and so He cannot prevent all bad things from happening. He can, and does, give us the tools to drive evil away, and He influences events so that they happen as they should happen according to how God knows the world will be, but He still cannot always get it right, because Satan has a chance to make things go wrong. I know this is rather rambling, but I'd like to see what other people think. Challenge my argument, if you want - I'm sure it's not foolproof.

Your giving Satan way too much power, for I am one that believe for God to exist he must as the bible explains. Clearly, God understands and knows sin ashe made us. God created all knowing exactly what all would do. Man would like to teach that God reacts to Satan and man, well, it's the other way around.God created Satan. Certainly he knew Satan would fall as he made him that way. When Satan sinned, God could have ended it all then. He could've destroyed Satans or just simply taken his power away. He did not. Strange God would place this sinful creature on the same planet with man that would cause so much harm. What was Satan doing in the Garden in the first place? Why place the tree in the Garden? You can clearly see God put every piece of the puzzle in place for man to fall. Being God, what he allows, he doe's so with purpose. God will one day deal with evil and Satan. That clear end is explained in the bible. That was God's appointed time to deal with Satan after Satan has completed his work. God didn't destroy Satan in the beginning because Satan was part of his ordained plan. To say different takes away the power of an all knowing God. Can't know some things and not know others. If that was the case Satan and man could always corrupt and defy his will.I think clearly God's plan was for man to have knowledge. The knowledge in itself isn't evil, but the choices we make using that knowledge can be. God's plan was never for man to remain in a Garden on earth. Eventually man would have populated the earth and the Garden couldn't contain all of man. His plan was our heavenly home. He is never caught napping, nor can Satan ruin his plan. God doesn't have a plan B everytime Satan doe's something.If God doesn't know what is happening, then he could never fulfill his will as he would always be reacting to the will of others. In fact no one understands sin as God doe's. With his great total understanding of sin he sent Christ, because he knew man was incapable ofdealing with sin. Men's ways of dealing with sin are imperfect. When we try with works we become self-righeous. When we create doctrines of fear or control, they only lead to non-ending guilt with no results. Christ took care of sin to take it out of the hands of man.
and I can't figure out why my post will not adjust correctly to paragraph form...sorry. Haven't posted in awhile and got to figure something out.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hey, Sprout:

Congratulations first off, on your choice of field of study. I think you will find it a challenging, fulfilling, permanently fascinating way to go. Other fields deal with bits of reality; philosophy deals with it's whole, and it's meaning. Other fields are instrumental to improving lifestyles; philosophy of religion is about what that lifestyle is for.

In a way, we are kindred spirits; my own chosen enquiries are into ethics, philosophy of religion and theology. But I am past the age when I can take schooling: I just read books, these days.

Anyway, I just want to submit two thoughts on your post which you can ignore or pursue as you please:

1) Don't take the Bible too literally. It is far richer as metaphor, allegory and a light on, rather than description of, reality.

2) Perhaps the world is perfect, because it is imperfect? Perhaps the 'imperfections' give us something to struggle with, and so direction to, and meaning to, our individual lives? Without them, perhaps life would be without challenge, without meaning, without direction, and essentially, purposeless?
Here: A Fairy Story - Christian Forums is a link to a thread illustrating an unconventional view of Satan's part in the world.

Best wishes, 2RM.

PS. Formatting features are failing. Apologies, but it's not my fault. I will come back and edit later, when things are fixed.

 

[nmoreno]

You are right saying that God can not stand sin, and that Satan can cause a lot of evil. I will also have to say that God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Then, why does God let that so much suffering and evil happens in the world, even his sons and daughters go through temptation and chaos? Can God stop the suffering that we go through on Earth?
Yes, He can. Why does He allows it? So the world may know that He is God. When do we seek more from God in our time of suffering or in our happy times? He wants to stretch our faith in Him and believe in the salvation He wants to give us through His Son Jesus.
In the Bible, Romans 3:23-26 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Sprout. I am not challenging you, but may I say this? humbly and with love. Adam and Eve were our proto-types, and God did ALWAYS know that they/we are not perfect. God made us in His image, we are the only beings in this Universe capable to think and reason, and to know the difference between GOOD and NOT Good. When the Serpent tempted them, they succumbed quite easily. They knew they were disobeying God, and God knew they would. WHY? God wants us to love Him, and follow His loving advice BECAUSE we freely choose to do so, Not because we are puppets with no will of our own. God wants us to live eternally with Him and our brothers and sister, God wants us to love and cherish Him as our Heavenly Father, and love each other as we love ourselves, selflessly and completely. After Adam and Eve were banished to Earth, they and all who came after, moved farther and farther away from God, Mankind became selfish and wilfull. When Jesus came to Earth, He showed us God as He is really, loving and waiting to forgive us, wanting us to REPENT, to exchange our old and sinful character, into a loving and forgiving character. Jesus reconciled us to God, He is our Saviour and the Way back to God and our original home. We have years to learn to become as God wants us to be, loving/treating all others, as we would like to be loved/treated ourselves. Pure Love is the Key back to God, selfless and with no strings attached. Love God first, and our brothers and sister as we love ourselves. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Joveia]

That is a pretty good attempt at explaining the issues. But I would say that even though it's so counterintuitive, free will is not in tension with omniscience and omnipotence. One thing about free will is that we don't really know how it works. I think that's because human reason divides causes up into 1. Determinism, 2. Randomness, and 3. Probability (in between). There's no room for free will there. So free will is probably something that we have but we don't know how it works because our reason always makes use of those 3 categories. So what I think is going on is that we need to suppress our intuition, because our intuition is using category 1 (determinism) when we imagine God predicting our choices, when free will isn't involved at all with category 1 (determinism). So I would say God did know that Adam would sin but Adam was free, and God also knows His own future choices but they are free.

With suffering, I think that because of wrongdoing, the image of God has been cut off from God in some sense, and even though we don't really know how the relationship works, somehow this causes a lot of pain and discontent in the world. If a lot of suffering is caused by the image of God and God being separated, then it's not clear how God can fix things and help us be happy except through something like the cross. Maybe even if our world was a lot safer, this problem would still cause suffering or something.

 

[Zebra1552]

(I'm not sure if this is in the right place, so hopefully a mod can move it if it would be better somewhere else!) I'm studying philosophy of religion at school, and I'm finding it really interesting. But we were talking about the start of Genesis, and had the predictable debate "If God is omniscient and omnipotent why didn't He stop Adam and Eve sinning, and keep the world perfect". I don't see that omniscience and omnipotence can go entirely hand in hand (because then God is limited by what He knows - if He always knew that Adam and Eve would take the fruit, He could do nothing to stop it, and is therefore not omnipotent). But...I think this is a reasonable explanation, for someone who has only recently opened up to the Christian faith, and studied philosophy for less than two months... God created a perfect world. He created sky and sea, and night and day, and animals and plants. And then He created humans, but He made them in His image. God knew that humans would be like God on earth, and would hav dominion over the world He had created. He knew this, because it was meant to be. But God cannot stand sin. He cannot understand it, and He cannot even begin to comprehend it - because His nature is so very different to it. He could not see that Adam and Eve would take the fruit. He could not prevent it from happening because He did not know that it would happen. From then on, the world was imperfect, because Satan had been allowed into the perfect world, and had spoiled it. Humans, because of the choice that God had given them, had ruined their future, and God's plans.

Um... you are starting with the assumption that the future is set. That's a fairly large assumption. I don't believe that assumption is accurate. I believe a better one would be that God can see all possible futures, with any given choice in mind. The implications of that are quite obvious. God let the fall happen.

Now God cannot recreate the perfect world He made to start with, because of us, and because of Satan. He still cannot understand evil, and so He cannot prevent all bad things from happening.

That's incompatible with Christian theology. God knows sin and does understand it, though not first-hand. How else could He be against it? God does not prevent all bad things from happening because that would limit our free will.

He can, and does, give us the tools to drive evil away, and He influences events so that they happen as they should happen according to how God knows the world will be, but He still cannot always get it right, because Satan has a chance to make things go wrong.

Again, incompatible with Christian theology. You are placing limitations on God's omnipotence that God did not put there. And yes, I just said that God limits His own power.

I know this is rather rambling, but I'd like to see what other people think. Challenge my argument, if you want - I'm sure it's not foolproof.

No logical or philosophical argument is foolproof because it begins with an assumption that is not completely logical to make. For example, I could argue that I am typing at my computer, but I assume that my computer is not a figment of a constructed reality. But I don't delve into that because I like not having headaches.

I propose to you the following:

1. God exists, and is omnipotent.
2. God is also omniscient.
3. The world currently has sin in it.
4. Either God's omniscience is limited, or God's omnipotence is limited.
5. If God's omniscience is limited and not limited by Himself, then God is not actually omniscient. Same with God's omnipotence.
6. Because the world currently has sin in it, God's omnipotence is limited.
7. Is God's omnipotence limited, is it limited by God Himself?
8. ^ Yes, it is. It is limited by God's own morals: that man have free will and not be forced to serve Him. This is evidenced by many, many things, such as God's requests that we follow Him: if God could make us choose, it would be foolish of Him to ask rather than simply make us.
9. Given the above, does God choose people for salvation, or do they choose Him?
10. God chooses people based on His knowledge of all possible futures.
11. We also choose God.

 

[student ad x]

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[freeport]

(I'm not sure if this is in the right place, so hopefully a mod can move it if it would be better somewhere else!) I'm studying philosophy of religion at school, and I'm finding it really interesting. But we were talking about the start of Genesis, and had the predictable debate "If God is omniscient and omnipotent why didn't He stop Adam and Eve sinning, and keep the world perfect". I don't see that omniscience and omnipotence can go entirely hand in hand (because then God is limited by what He knows - if He always knew that Adam and Eve would take the fruit, He could do nothing to stop it, and is therefore not omnipotent). But...I think this is a reasonable explanation, for someone who has only recently opened up to the Christian faith, and studied philosophy for less than two months... God created a perfect world. He created sky and sea, and night and day, and animals and plants. And then He created humans, but He made them in His image. God knew that humans would be like God on earth, and would hav dominion over the world He had created. He knew this, because it was meant to be. But God cannot stand sin. He cannot understand it, and He cannot even begin to comprehend it - because His nature is so very different to it. He could not see that Adam and Eve would take the fruit. He could not prevent it from happening because He did not know that it would happen. From then on, the world was imperfect, because Satan had been allowed into the perfect world, and had spoiled it. Humans, because of the choice that God had given them, had ruined their future, and God's plans. Now God cannot recreate the perfect world He made to start with, because of us, and because of Satan. He still cannot understand evil, and so He cannot prevent all bad things from happening. He can, and does, give us the tools to drive evil away, and He influences events so that they happen as they should happen according to how God knows the world will be, but He still cannot always get it right, because Satan has a chance to make things go wrong. I know this is rather rambling, but I'd like to see what other people think. Challenge my argument, if you want - I'm sure it's not foolproof.

Like you said, you just started. These matters are actually heavenly, we can seek them out intellectually, but ultimately have to look for God for guidance. That does not mean the answers God gives are unreasonable -- far from it. It simply means that the ways of people on the earth and God in Heaven are as far apart as the Heavens are the earth.

I wouldn't call it like comparing a grasshopper talking to a man... though people are called 'like skyscrapers', and we well know God's consciousness is far beyond our own. But these things are matters He has spoken to us about and can reveal to us.

It would perhaps more be like a primitive villager in South America having nuclear physics explained to them.


Where would one begin? First one would have to learn the language, then explain something of the history of science, and so on. Then math, then higher math.

Complicated enough for you?

Consider this...

Jesus pointed out not to worry about shelter or food and explained how God provides that even for the sparrow. What about the ant? What about the beaver? And so on. There is a lot of life on the planet God is aware of and has influence in their lives. That is consciousness.

But my point here isn't that this matter is so complicated about good and evil and the Garden of Evil. You are looking for a complicated answer. There are many matters in creation which are very complicated full of sublime complications, and tracing them down to their simplest components fills brilliant minds with lifetime of exploration.

Many completely understand they are peering into the divine. Others sense it but exclude the concept of the divine.

In reality, the whole Garden of Eden story is simple. God put Adam and Eve in the Garden with the Destroyer, the Devil. He put in there further a tree of somesort and gave them a single rule. "Do not eat".

I like to jokingly compare this to giving someone a box with a big red button and telling them "whatever you do, do not press that button". You know they are going to. Especially if you put in there a supersmart confidence man whose inclination is to get you to press that button.

Yet this is not explained. One reason is because the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven have been purposefully hidden: 'to shut their ears... lest they hear and believe, and turn and be healed'. Jesus quoted that for the reason He spoke in 'dark sayings and parables".

Put another way: God is smarter then you or me.

What is astonishing is how many people don't ask the question you are asking. They should.

Children of light tend to be more naive and trusting and simply do not wish to peer into these matters. I have found it necessary in order to help people "hear and believe, so they turn and are healed".

God 'subjected creation to futility'.

God created the Devil.

How do we reconcile such things? Many do not. Do you want to know why anyone doesn't believe in God, really? Because of evil in the world. It is very simple. They may say one thing or another, but it is really evil which is disinformation, which hides God's hand. Evil which says the lie, "God does not exist".

See, we are saved by faith. How could we be rewarded for faith if faith is easy? So, faith was not made easy. Why faith? So no one can boast, for no one deserves to boast. God made all.

It would be a shallow lie to boast.

This also is part of the grand irony of creation. All of people's deeds are worthless. All that is worth anything is their faith.

These things are where matters get mind boggling.

But, consider this: creation - all of it - is as a book. A person writes a book with heroes and villains, adversity and adversaries, the writer is not evil for giving the heroes and heroines their trials and tribulations. The writer is not evil for writing in villains.

The same thing you see with children playing with toys. Even as children we show our true nature as kittens play 'hunt mice'. We play God over toys.

Our whole world is full of such fictions: movies, television, books. This is always before us, yet people do not understand so often still why evil exists -- or why it has existed. For evil will not always exist.

Now, obviously, there is much more to it. After all, the evil in the world is very bad. But that evil will not always exist and is a small price to pay for the span of eternity we face before us. Further, it has to be noted we are as children in the face of these evils. As great and horrible as it often may seem to us, as impossible to comprehend, we should try to know that. God has minute control over pain and death, over mental experiences. Outwardly, it always looks horrible or seems so. But, in reality a pinprick can feel like a knife wound and a bullet might not even be felt.

For children their experiences with pain are extreme. At times. And I mean on little things. But, parents know better.

These matters are where it can get really hard to believe. But, that is the trick to escaping them. Believing through the pain, believing through the horror.

 

[Adoniram]

(I'm not sure if this is in the right place, so hopefully a mod can move it if it would be better somewhere else!) I'm studying philosophy of religion at school, and I'm finding it really interesting. But we were talking about the start of Genesis, and had the predictable debate "If God is omniscient and omnipotent why didn't He stop Adam and Eve sinning, and keep the world perfect". I don't see that omniscience and omnipotence can go entirely hand in hand (because then God is limited by what He knows - if He always knew that Adam and Eve would take the fruit, He could do nothing to stop it, and is therefore not omnipotent). But...I think this is a reasonable explanation, for someone who has only recently opened up to the Christian faith, and studied philosophy for less than two months... God created a perfect world. He created sky and sea, and night and day, and animals and plants. And then He created humans, but He made them in His image. God knew that humans would be like God on earth, and would hav dominion over the world He had created. He knew this, because it was meant to be. But God cannot stand sin. He cannot understand it, and He cannot even begin to comprehend it - because His nature is so very different to it. He could not see that Adam and Eve would take the fruit. He could not prevent it from happening because He did not know that it would happen. From then on, the world was imperfect, because Satan had been allowed into the perfect world, and had spoiled it. Humans, because of the choice that God had given them, had ruined their future, and God's plans. Now God cannot recreate the perfect world He made to start with, because of us, and because of Satan. He still cannot understand evil, and so He cannot prevent all bad things from happening. He can, and does, give us the tools to drive evil away, and He influences events so that they happen as they should happen according to how God knows the world will be, but He still cannot always get it right, because Satan has a chance to make things go wrong. I know this is rather rambling, but I'd like to see what other people think. Challenge my argument, if you want - I'm sure it's not foolproof.

Your argument might seem to have merit, but it does not jive with what the Scriptures teach. Such is the problem with most of "human" philosophy, and why Paul warned us not to heed it. The truth is...God did know Adam and Eve would sin; He did know the devastating effect that sin would have on the world, and His plan for salvation through Jesus Christ was already determined before the world was even created.

2 Tim. 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Eph. 1
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

Titus 1
1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

 

[drich0150]

"If God is omniscient and omnipotent why didn't He stop Adam and Eve sinning, and keep the world perfect".

The reason we were created here rather in the presents of God like the angels were is so that we may live a life that is centered around a choice. To either choose to be with God for all of eternity or to be alone with ourselves. This is why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed in the center of the Garden. If God's intent was to create a perfect place He would not have placed the tree in the garden..

But like with any choice there is consequence. For us the consequence of sin in the face of a Holy and righteous God is death. God over comes this natural consequence with the sacrifice of Jesus. This allows us a true choice. We can freely choose to be with God or we can spend eternity away from God.

don't see that omniscience and omnipotence can go entirely hand in hand (because then God is limited by what He knows - if He always knew that Adam and Eve would take the fruit, He could do nothing to stop it, and is therefore not omnipotent).

This whole line of reasoning is predicated on the Idea that the Earth and all that He created that first week was set up to be our final destination.. This Earth, this life, is merely a stepping stone to the door way of the rest of eternity. It is the place where we are to live for a time so that we may be able to choose how we wish to spend the rest of eternity with out the direct knowledge of who God is, and what it is He has to offer.