Can God save whom He wants?

[Hammster]

Some of your fellow Calvinists have accused us of meriting salvation simply because we believe in freedom of choice. I think "weather man chooses" is also relevant to the debate; do we freely choose or are we programmed to choose.

The OP ask if God can save whom He wants. The answer to that is yes but He does not. Why? Because He has given man the freedom to choose what God wants but some men choose not to. So therefore He does not save whom He wants because not all men want what He wants.

Like I have tried to explain repeatedly, men have freedom of choice. The elect choose God, the non-elect don't. Why? Because men choose what they desire. The elect desire God, the non-elect don't. It really isn't that complicated.

And you don't have to make bold the word choose all of the time. I get it.

 

[CmRoddy]

Deleted

 

[Doveaman]

Like I have tried to explain repeatedly, men have freedom of choice. The elect choose God, the non-elect don't. Why? Because men choose what they desire. The elect desire God, the non-elect don't. It really isn't that complicated.

And you don't have to make bold the word choose all of the time. I get it.

I don't think you do.

Your idea is that God causes the choice. A choice that is caused by someone else is not a choice; you end up having no choice.

 

[CmRoddy]

Take off your Calvinist glasses and you will see it. Keep them on and you will remain blind.
I guess to you this means that God hates people for no reason at all since Esau had done no wrong and was not even born; He was born to be hated by God for no reason.

I prefer to think of it as God knowing beforehand what Esau would choose to do after he was born and God hating what He knew Esau would do, and not hating Esau himself. This sounds more like the loving God I know.

HAHAHA! Wow, so despite verse 11, you are going to hold this position, completely contradicting what it says... amazing...

Calvinism will always take scriptures like these and make a mess of them. Don't just go by what you see, go by what is meant. It is clear you do not understand what is meant.

Ah yes, "hate" doesn't really mean hate, it just means something else. You haven't provided any exegesis. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen any exegesis from your posts, just blank assertions that are right for the simple purpose that you posted them...

Do you follow the example of your god? Do you hate people just like he does?

No because I am not God. This is humanism thinking on your part. So I'll ask again: Where does the Bible say that God loves everyone?

 

[CmRoddy]

I don't think you do.

Your idea is that God causes the choice. A choice that is caused by someone else is not a choice; you end up having no choice.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Once again, you are wrong.

 

[Hammster]

I don't think you do.

Your idea is that God causes the choice. A choice that is caused by someone else is not a choice; you end up having no choice.

I have never said that God causes the choice. Never have, never will. Otherwise, you would be correct.

 

[Doveaman]

HAHAHA! Wow, so despite verse 11, you are going to hold this position, completely contradicting what it says... amazing...

I hold this position because I know the God who inspired verse 11, and He hates no one.

Whatever God said about Esau before he was born we know that Esau's failures was a result of his own selfish choices. God simply foresaw those poor choices and predicted the consequences and the outcome of those poor choices. God's foreknowledge is always at work.

Ah yes, "hate" doesn't really mean hate, it just means something else.

It's just like "all men" doesn't really mean all men, or the "whole world" doesn't really mean the whole world. Remember those? Or is it that you remember only what you want to remember? How convenient.

You haven't provided any exegesis. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen any exegesis from your posts, just blank assertions that are right for the simple purpose that you posted them...

This is the only exegesis you need:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love...1 John 4:8.

Love isn't simply what God does; it is who God is. He is love. A god who hates people is opposed to the God who is love. Two different gods.

No because I am not God. This is humanism thinking on your part. So I'll ask again: Where does the Bible say that God loves everyone?

So you follow a god that says "do as I say but don't do as I do". I guess you are more loving than your god who has so much hate for people.

 

[Hammster]

Is a God who is wrathful the opposite of a God who loves?

 

[Doveaman]

Is a God who is wrathful the opposite of a God who loves?

God's wrath is because He hates sin, not because He hates men. He hates sin because sin destroys the men He loves.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?...Ezek 18:23.

 

[CmRoddy]

I hold this position because I know the God who inspired verse 11, and He hates no one.

Joseph Smith used this same "special revelation" trick and look what that created... Why are you not allowing Scripture to speak plainly?

Whatever God said about Esau before he was born we know that Esau's failures was a result of his own selfish choices. God simply foresaw those poor choices and predicted the consequences and the outcome of those poor choices.

That is not what the text says! Why are you changing it so?

Romans 9:11
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
​

This was a choice that God made completely apart from His foreknowledge. There is no such indication anywhere in this text! Stop giving me eisegesis.

It's just like "all men" doesn't really mean all men, or the "whole world" doesn't really mean the whole world. Remember those? Or is it that you remember only what you want to remember? How convenient.

Did Jesus give His life for every single individual person? I ask because the answer to this question will let me know a lot about how you view Scripture. If it were God's will that all men be saved, then all men would be saved otherwise God would not be sovereign. It really is that simple.

This is the only exegesis you need:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love...1 John 4:8.

Love isn't simply what God does; it is who God is. He is love. A god who hates people is opposed to the God who is love. Two different gods.

Absolutely amazing...

The Bible says, very plainly, that God hates certain people but you reject it because God is love. Do you really think that man deserves God's love? Is God morally obligated to love anybody? How is it a contradiction that God can love and hate at the same time?

Let me tell you something: it should never be "God is love therefore He can't hate." In reality it is "God is love, therefore He must hate." Do you love babies? Then you must hate abortion. Do you love African Americans? Then you must hate slavery. Do you love Jews? Then you must hate the Holocaust. Do you love Jesus? Then you must hate Satan. Do you love righteousness? Then you must hate sin.

You seem to think I am ascribing the same type of selfish, vengeful, envious human hatred we feel for certain things to God and that simply isn't true. God's hatred is the response of an infinitely holy and righteous God to sinners that break His law.

I'll ask you once again: Where does the Bible teach that God loves everybody?

So you follow a god that says "do as I say but don't do as I do". I guess you are more loving than your god who has so much hate for people.

If you want to speak blasphemy against God then go right ahead. Just know that you are lowering God to a human level of understanding instead of allowing Him to be the God of the Bible.

 

[CmRoddy]

God's wrath is because He hates sin, not because He hates men. He hates sin because sin destroys the men He loves.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?...Ezek 18:23.

YES! I was just waiting for you to say this little cliche.

OK, where does the Bible anywhere teach that "God loves the sinner but hates his sin"? Please show me. Because as I have already proven from Scripture, God hates the people who do iniquity, not just their sin.

And you are abusing Ezekiel 18. You seem to think that Calvinists believe that God is in heaven gleefully condemning men to hell. Sorry but no Calvinist believes this (unless they are a "hyper-Calvinist" but then they are no longer Calvinists). God condemns sinners because He hates the sinners, not their sin.

Why would someone be thrown in hell if God only hates their sin?

YouTube - Does God Love Everyone?

 

[Doveaman]

I have never said that God causes the choice. Never have, never will. Otherwise, you would be correct.

The fact that the elect will ultimately choose God, as you claimed, it means that they have no choice but to ultimately choose God, because God has caused them to ultimately choose God.

 

[Doveaman]

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Once again, you are wrong.

Whatever God does in us is done because He caused it, but God will do nothing in us unless we choose to allow Him to do so. Only if He forces His will on us or program his will in us which He does not do. We are not robots.

 

[MamaZ]

Whatever God does in us is done because He caused it, but God will do nothing in us unless we choose to allow Him to do so. Only if He forces His will on us or program his will in us which He does not do. We are not robots.

You are correct we are not robots.. We are slaves.

 

[Doveaman]

YES! I was just waiting for you to say this little cliche.

OK, where does the Bible anywhere teach that "God loves the sinner but hates his sin"? Please show me. Because as I have already proven from Scripture, God hates the people who do iniquity, not just their sin.

And you are abusing Ezekiel 18. You seem to think that Calvinists believe that God is in heaven gleefully condemning men to hell. Sorry but no Calvinist believes this (unless they are a "hyper-Calvinist" but then they are no longer Calvinists). God condemns sinners because He hates the sinners, not their sin.

Why would someone be thrown in hell if God only hates their sin?

If my son's rebellious behavior is endangering the lives of the rest of my household I can kick him out because I hate his rebellion while at the same time loving him.

A judge can condemn a murderer to death because of what he did while at the same time loving the one who did it. Our eternal Judge can do the same. Condemnation is because of what was done, not because you hate the one who did it.

 

[Doveaman]

You are correct we are not robots.. We are slaves.

We are slaves because we choose to be slaves, not because we are forced to be slaves or programmed to be slaves.

 

[MamaZ]

We are slaves because we choose to be slaves, not because we are forced to be slaves or programmed to be slaves.

Men are slaves to sin unless chosen and bought by the blood of Jesus then we become more than servants to Him. We are called friends. So either way we are slaves. Either to sin or to righteousness. Scripture does not teach us we are slaves because we choose to be.

 

[MamaZ]

When God predestines a person it is not on behalf of Him knowing what we will do. For we are not saved by works. We are saved by Gods Grace.. God is not limited to what men choose or not choose. Men are limited to their human fallacy.. This is how we have one creator and many creation.

 

[Hammster]

The fact that the elect will ultimately choose God, as you claimed, it means that they have no choice but to ultimately choose God, because God has caused them to ultimately choose God.

Let's look at your view and see how this pans out. Since God is omniscient, everything that he knows will happen must come to pass. It has to. There is no way around it. If God knew that you would be saved, then you will be saved. You can't not be saved. So, since God knew it would happen, and you can do no other, you must have been preprogrammed to receive Christ.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Doveamen,

for some reason you skipped a post of mine. Please respond-

Why would God need to predestine something that was going to happen whether He predestinated it or not? My point being, if He saw we were going to do something anyways, why predestinate it?