Can God save whom He wants?

[Doveaman]

how does God cause us to obey Him.

God does not cause us to obey Him. We choose to obey.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Not skipped, just distracted.

Depends on how we view predestination.

Predestination is not God pre-programming us to do only what He wants us to do as if we are robots.

Predestination is God determining beforehand what our reward (glory) or penalty (destruction) will be based on His foreknowledge of our choice to do good in faith or to do evil in rebellion.

Our choices determine our destiny.

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Therefore choose life, so that you and your children may live...Deut 30:19.

Predestination also involves God determining in advance what He wants us to do knowing in advance that we will choose to do it when he calls us to do it.

If I knew beforehand that one carpenter would construct my house better then another then I can determine beforehand which carpenter I will eventually call to build that house.

For those God foreknew (knew beforehand) he also predestined (determine beforehand) to be conformed to the likeness of his Son...And those he predestined, he also called...Rom 8:29-30.

God knew beforehand (foreknew) those who would freely choose to accept His call to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, and those He knew beforehand would freely choose to accept His call, He determined beforehand (predestined) to conform them, and those whom He predestined to be conformed He eventually called to be conformed.

The predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge of what we will freely choose in faith. Our choices determine our destiny.

The idea that our choices are not involved in our salvation or condemnation is contrary to scriptures such as this one:

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Therefore choose life, so that you and your children may live...Deut 30:19.

Another example of predestination is how God dealt with Pharaoh.

But I know (foreknew) that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians (predestination)...After that, he will let you go...Ex 3:19-20.

God predestined the destruction of Egypt based on His foreknowledge of Pharaoh’s choosing not to let Israel go. Because God knew beforehand that Pharaoh would choose not to let Israel go He determined beforehand to destroy Egypt.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose..."

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the vessels of his wrath — prepared for destruction?

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the vessels of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — even us, whom he also called...Rom 9:17, 22-24.

Using the example above regarding the predestined destruction of Pharaoh and Egypt, the predestined destruction of the vessels of wrath is based on God’s foreknowledge of the wrong choices they will make in rebellion as Pharaoh did.

And the predestined glory of the vessels of mercy is based on God’s foreknowledge of the right choices they will make in faith as Noah did.

The choice is ours to freely choose in faith; God freely chose to offer us salvation and we freely choose in faith to accept it.

Our choices determine our destiny; blessings or curses, life or death, glory or destruction.

Therefore choose life, so that you and your children may live...Deut 30:19.

I am having trouble staying committed to these forums... teaching is so much easier than correcting...

 

[Doveaman]

Perhaps you should do some research on the foreknowledge of God seeing how you don't have a very Biblical view of it.

Monergism :: Forseen Faith

You call this research?

If you agree with them and I don't agree with you, do you think I will agree with them when they agree with you?

You need to bring scripture, not religion.

 

[CmRoddy]

God does not cause us to obey Him. We choose to obey.

Have you completely ignored my post on this subject??

Ezekiel 36:26-27 (NASB)
26"Moreover, I will give you anew heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

God does cause His people to obey Him.

 

[CmRoddy]

You call this research?

If you agree with them and I don't agree with you, do you think I will agree with them when they agree with you?

You need to bring scripture, not religion.

I'm tired of this rhetoric, Doveaman. You keep on making blank assertions about other people's position but you provide nothing substantial. This is a habit you need to learn to break.

 

[jmacvols]

Have you completely ignored my post on this subject??

Ezekiel 36:26-27 (NASB)
26"Moreover, I will give you anew heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

God does cause His people to obey Him.

Did God cause His people Israel to obey Him? If God "caused" them to obey they would have, so they never turned to worship idols, they never rejected the Messiah, because God caused His Israel robots to do exactly as He said?

God caused Peter to obey? Peter could only do as God caused him so Peter never would deny Christ?

 

[cygnusx1]

God does not cause us to obey Him. We choose to obey.

how much more of this "will worship" must we endure ?

Ezek.36


[23] And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
[24] For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
[25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


&

Phil 2


[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[jmacvols]

how much more of this "will worship" must we endure ?

Ezek.36


[23] And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
[24] For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
[25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

1) - If God causes His people to walk in His statutes then they WILL walk in those statutes for they can do nothing else but walk in God's statues, they would be pre programmed robots. Yet we see God's people sinning and not walking in His statutes, does this mean God failed in His "causing"?

2) - when it says God causes you to walk in His statutes, it is a Hebrew expression, where an active verb is used to say someone actively does something, but in reality he only allows or permits it. Hence God will allow or permit them to walk in His statutes. This is seen here:

Eze 11:19 - And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 11:20 - That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

 

[cygnusx1]

1) - If God causes His people to walk in His statutes then they WILL walk in those statutes for they can do nothing else but walk in God's statues, they would be pre programmed robots. Yet we see God's people sinning and not walking in His statutes, does this mean God failed in His "causing"?

where does this text , or any other , say that God will ONLY cause His people to obey ?

where does it state that God will do no more than cause obedience ?

even the Jews had a better grasp of God's sovereignty than "will-worshippers , and merit mongers !

you do remember the scripture about God also causing His people to ERR ?

 

[student ad x]

how much more of this "will worship" must we endure ?

A shame the simplest of answers cannot be accepted ....

“How long I was, myself, dictating to God instead of trusting Him! I thought I must have a certain amount of conviction of sin before I could be saved. I really had it all the while, though I did not know that I had it. I thought I must feel a certain weight of guilt. I was feeling it and, for that very reason, I thought I was not. I might have been spared much needless suffering if I had only believed what the Lord had taught me in His Word—that I had nothing to do with feeling burdens or anything else by way of preparation for coming to Christ, but that I had to come to Him just as I was… So, poor blind ones, come to my Master, blind as you are—but do not lay down any rules or regulations as to how He is to save you, for He will do it in His own way, which is, after all, the best possible way” -- Mr. Spurgeon

 

[jmacvols]

where does this text , or any other , say that God will ONLY cause His people to obey ?

where does it state that God will do no more than cause obedience ?

even the Jews had a better grasp of God's sovereignty than "will-worshippers , and merit mongers !

you do remember the scripture about God also causing His people to ERR ?

Where does it say God will cause His people to obey occasionally? The rest of the time God is causing them to disobey?

 

[CmRoddy]

Amazing that people can take a text that says, very explicitly, that God will cause His people to follow Him but still make it seem like it doesn't say that... just to hold their theology...

It breaks my hear to see this kind of Biblical abuse.

 

[jmacvols]

Amazing that people can take a text that says, very explicitly, that God will cause His people to follow Him but still make it seem like it doesn't say that... just to hold their theology...

If God "causes" His people to walk in His statutes then they would be absolutely perfect wouldn't they?

Why does Eze 11:20 say "may walk in My statutes"?


If God "caused" them to walk in His statutes would they have any choice to not to walk in His statutes?

It breaks my hear to see this kind of Biblical abuse.

Breaking an hear can be painful.

 

[Doveaman]

Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
Jud 1:25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, {be} glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

who is able - δύναμαι (Present Participle)

1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful

God is omnipotent; He has the power to do what He promises us He will do. This is spoken of in the present tense - He is currently possesses the power and always will - His power in innate.

to keep - φυλάσσω (Aorist Infinitive)

1) to guard
a) to watch, keep watch
b) to guard or watch, have an eye upon: lest he escape
c) to guard a person (or thing) that he may remain safe
1) lest he suffer violence, be despoiled, etc. to protect
2) to protect one from a person or thing
3) to keep from being snatched away, preserve safe and unimpaired
4) to guard from being lost or perishing
5) to guard one's self from a thing
d) to guard i.e. care for, take care not to violate
1) to observe
2) to observe for one's self something to escape
a) to avoid, shun flee from
b) to guard for one's self (i.e. for one's safety's sake) so as not to violate, i.e. to keep, observe (the precepts of the Mosaic law)

He guards, protects, watches over, and keeps us. This is in the Aorist infinitive, rendering it to keep, to protect, to watch.

from falling - ἄπταιστος

1) not stumbling, standing firm, exempt from falling

So quite literally-

Now to Him who has the power and ability to watch over and to keep us standing firm

So some questions I would like to ask are: Who has the power? Who keeps us? Who is able?

Is it ourselves? Can we keep ourselves from stumbling? Can we keep ourselves
standing firm?

I think not.

If God has such power to keep us, why don't He keep us from sinning? Why does He still allow us to continue to sin? Can't He keep us from doing that?

 

[Doveaman]

You have yet to provide any Biblical response to the hatred of God I have proven from Scripture. When you find the verse that teaches that God loves every single individual or that He loves the sinner but hates the sin, let me know.

I already did but you keep denying it.

For example:

For God so loved the world...John 3:16.

I await you twist.

 

[Doveaman]

The Greek language is very technical. Sometimes universal words are used to denote an entire class of men. Here is a clear example:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Same world here as in 3:16 (κόσμο&#962, and clearly not referring to all men in the entire world, but wicked men.

A better example:

1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Yet in his Gospel John says God Himself loves the world. What is going on here?

The term κόσμος can be used to refer to a group of men, as it most often refers to a group of wicked men, or natural man. It can denote the entire universe, the planet itself, all of humanity, some of humanity, etc. So in John 3:16, clearly John is not saying God loves the world of wicked men, because he teaches against it in his epistles (1 John 2:15). It is not outside of the scope of the term to assert that the world in 3:16 refers specifically to the elect.

1 Joh 2:15 is talking about the world's sinful behavior which we should hate and avoid, not the people.

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world — the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does — comes not from the Father but from the world...1 John 2:15-17.

Behavior is in view here, not people.

John 3:16 is talking about the people of the world whom God loves, not their sinful behavior.

For God so loved the world that...whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life...John 3:16.

People are in view here, not behavior.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God...James 4:4.

The world's people are God's enemies because of their "adulterous...hatred" sinful behavior, but yet God still loves them all.

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

But I tell you: Love your enemies...that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good...If you love those who love you, what reward will you get...Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect...Matt 5:43-48.

God's love is perfect toward all the world, including His enemies.

 

[cygnusx1]

Where does it say God will cause His people to obey occasionally? The rest of the time God is causing them to disobey?

we arrive there by comparing scripture with scripture , and making a logical careful Biblical deduction which maintains both truths !


if you are simply looking for a text that states God will cause His people to sometimes obey then more fool you , ;


where does it say pink elephants do not exist on the sun ?..... sadly your logic is flawed!

 

[CmRoddy]

I already did but you keep denying it.

For example:

For God so loved the world...John 3:16.

I await you twist.

I don't deny that God loved the world, I just don't assume that "world" means every single individual person. Also, you use John 3:16 purely out of tradition while ripping it clear out of context. Perhaps you should read vv. 14-15 in order to see that there is particularity being talked about in v. 16

You have yet to provide a Bible verse that teaches that God loves every single individual person.

 

[CmRoddy]

If God "causes" His people to walk in His statutes then they would be absolutely perfect wouldn't they?

Why does Eze 11:20 say "may walk in My statutes"?


If God "caused" them to walk in His statutes would they have any choice to not to walk in His statutes?

Did I every say perfectly? Does the passage say it will be perfect? No, it simply says that He will cause them to do so.

This is a great example of human logic trumping Scripture for no reason other then to hold a traditional position.

 

[Hammster]

we arrive there by comparing scripture with scripture , and making a logical careful Biblical deduction which maintains both truths !





if you are simply looking for a text that states God will cause His people to sometimes obey then more fool you , ;





where does it say pink elephants do not exist on the sun ?..... sadly your logic is flawed!

I think in the bible codes it says something about pink elephants on the sun. But I digress.