Can God save a closed heart?

[SnuP]

What do you think about this statement?

God cannot redeem a closed heart, even if the spirit has been redeemed, because that would break the will of the man.

 

[tericl2]

Re 3:20
Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door , I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me.

Unless we relegate Jesus to the rather undignified action of "breaking and entering" then I don't believe he will be forcing His way into our heart. Hear his voice and answer the knock. When the door is open he will enter, not as a thief with a crow bar, but as a friend.

 

[suzie]

What do you mean even if the spirit has been redeemed exactly? I dont see how one's spirit can be redeemed and their heart be closed if I am interpreting this correctly.

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by suzie
What do you mean even if the spirit has been redeemed exactly? I dont see how one's spirit can be redeemed and their heart be closed if I am interpreting this correctly.

I missed that part. How CAN your spirit be redeemed without your heart being in with the program too? Especially since you must believe "in your heart" to be saved?

 

[SnuP]

We talking about two different periods of time here. If the spirit was redeemed then at one time the heart was opened to God, but by the question the heart became closed for one reason or another before the man died. And God had been unable to couch the man to open back up his heart before he died.

 

[suzie]

You are essentially asking if you can fall away from salvation? I do not believe you can become "unsaved" for when you are saved nor can you "fall away" or become hardened to Christ.

How could this be achieved when we recieve salvation it is we who no longer live but Christ who lives in us? We die to self and take on Christ. If Christ is living in us, how can we turn from Him?

Epesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory."

 

[Andrew]

Snup,

your question is a little odd cos heart is actually spirit except that heart has one extra component -- will. so if one's spirit is already redeemed, the heart cannot be closed.

I believe you mean the SOUL -- mind, will, emotions -- being closed to God ie not obedient to the Word.

When we are born again, the spirit in us (which is the real you and I) was recreated/born of God.

But the soul (mind, will, emotions) as well as the body/flesh are not redeemed yet. That's why the Bible says the Word of God "saves our soul", and to renew our minds with the Word, line up our emotions/will with the Word. Subject the desires of the body under the promptings/leading of our spirit which is led by the Holy Spirit. these things we have to do ourselves by the grace of God.

point: a Christian who does not do these things (we are all guilty to some degree) will get into all sorts of problems in this life, but in the end he is still saved by the grace of God becos his spirit is already recreated.

 

[Job_38]

We are all closed hearted before we are saved. It is what makes us different than the lost, because now we have been given the gift of seeing God and what he created, that is to know it is his. Amen.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by suzie
You are essentially asking if you can fall away from salvation? I do not believe you can become "unsaved" for when you are saved nor can you "fall away" or become hardened to Christ.

How could this be achieved when we recieve salvation it is we who no longer live but Christ who lives in us? We die to self and take on Christ. If Christ is living in us, how can we turn from Him?

Epesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory."

That is a good question, but never the less it happens everyday.

Let us remember that just because we have been saved that does not mean that we no longer have a will.  You also need to remember that all of God's promises to man are contingent on mans actions.  To say that once you recieve Christ, you have no more choice in the matter, that you are stuck with your dicision, is folly and does not line up with the fact that God is love and will not force Himself upon you.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Andrew
Snup,

your question is a little odd cos heart is actually spirit except that heart has one extra component -- will. so if one's spirit is already redeemed, the heart cannot be closed.

I believe you mean the SOUL -- mind, will, emotions -- being closed to God ie not obedient to the Word.

When we are born again, the spirit in us (which is the real you and I) was recreated/born of God.

But the soul (mind, will, emotions) as well as the body/flesh are not redeemed yet. That's why the Bible says the Word of God "saves our soul", and to renew our minds with the Word, line up our emotions/will with the Word. Subject the desires of the body under the promptings/leading of our spirit which is led by the Holy Spirit. these things we have to do ourselves by the grace of God.

point: a Christian who does not do these things (we are all guilty to some degree) will get into all sorts of problems in this life, but in the end he is still saved by the grace of God becos his spirit is already recreated.

The problem with this is that you don't understand the difference between that heart and the spirit.  First off, you must discide were the will of a man is housed, the spirit or the soul.  The heart cannot houses the will which is part of the soul (as you say) and still be a part of the spirit.  Also you say that the heart has the will, therefore it can chose.  The spirit can not chose.  If the heart can chose, then it can chose to close.  How also can you sapperate the heart from the emotions?

The truth is, the soul is made up of two parts, the mind and heart.  The heart is also made up of two parts, the will and the emotions.  Because our will is tied to our emotions that is why one will rule over the other.  The emotions can rule over the will.  The will can rule over the emotions.  You see hear two types of people, those who can not control themselves and those who cannot stop controlling themselves.  Both are outside of God's will.  If after the spirit has been redeem, the heart (being unredeemed since it is a part of the soul), recieving some wound that is too much for it to bear, seals itself off from God, how then can it be redeemed since it is rejecting God in the fear of being hurt.

 

[sola fide]

Snup, I understand the point that you are trying to make. But if you are truly born again, i.e. "in Christ", as Paul put it in 2 Cor., that means that your will is submissive to Him. You do have a free will. You can choose whether or not to brush your teeth before you take a shower in the morning. You can choose what you want to eat. But when it comes to matters of the heart, God is in complete control of the redeemed. The Shephard steers the sheep, not the other way around.
I think it is very dangerous to underestimate the power of God, because it can lead to self-glorification. God can redeem hearts, and ALLOWS hearts to be hardened according to His own good will and pleasure according to His holy counsel. Read Romans 8 through again, and think about this. God would not allow the heart of one of His sheep to be hardened or as you said "closed", this would be counterproductive. God is effective in all that He does.
If I could make a recommendation, or a plea in this case. I would recommend in all sincerity that you read "willing to believe" by R.C. Sproul or "the bondage of the will" by Martin Luther. It'll be worth your time.
God bless.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[SnuP]

unfortunatly many around me fail to see the hurt that they cause.  Even Christians.  So often I have seen a heart that was once open closed because of a foolish and arogant statement.  The statements of christians hurt the most.

But when it comes to matters of the heart, God is in complete control of the redeemed.

God would not allow the heart of one of His sheep to be hardened or as you said "closed", this would be counterproductive.

God does not control mans will even in matters of the heart.  If He does then why do we all still fear.  And why do many still react in anger and pride and invy and bitterness.  These are all aspect of the heart, But God still allows man's will to chose these sins.  Also you forget that in order to stop a man form hardening his heart because of some offence, God would have to stop anothers man's will from offending which is an action of that man's heart.

I am not limiting God, I am showing the depth of His love.  Your ideas on how God operates with the heart of a man looks good on paper but is not applicable to real life.

 

[sola fide]

Yes it does look good on paper, the Bible. And the Bible is very much applicable to real life. Like I said, try out one of those books, you won't regret it.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[SnuP]

The bible does not say that God is in complete contol of the heart of a saved man. 

It does tell us to, by our own will, set our affections on things above.  I tell you to read Colossians 3, not some book that God may or may not agree with.

 

 

[sola fide]

Alright then, let's talk about Colossians 3-

Col. 3:3- "For YOU ARE DEAD, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
3:6-10-
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience; In the which you also walkED some time, when you LIVED in them. But NOW you also put off these;...
And have put on the NEW MAN, which IS renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him.
Col. 3 does not tell us that man has a free will to seek after Godly things....on the contrary, it tells us that we must put on Christ if we are to do anything that is good concerning God.
God is our power to do good, not ourselves. We must be renewed by God in order to seek God. If one is truly renewed as the scripture states, then and only then are they able to seek after God.
By the way, the books I mentioned are still good books. I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, I'm only trying to edify...God bless.

Soli Deo gloria!

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by sola fide
Alright then, let's talk about Colossians 3-

Col. 3:3- "For YOU ARE DEAD, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
3:6-10-
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience; In the which you also walkED some time, when you LIVED in them. But NOW you also put off these;...
And have put on the NEW MAN, which IS renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him.
Col. 3 does not tell us that man has a free will to seek after Godly things....on the contrary, it tells us that we must put on Christ if we are to do anything that is good concerning God.
God is our power to do good, not ourselves. We must be renewed by God in order to seek God. If one is truly renewed as the scripture states, then and only then are they able to seek after God.
By the way, the books I mentioned are still good books. I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, I'm only trying to edify...God bless.

Soli Deo gloria!

Soli Deo gloria!

Do you not notice here that the only action here is that of the Christians.  God empowers us to do the action of taking off.  He does not do it for us unless it is to much for us to bear.  It is the same with all act of obedience.  God does not make us obey, He does not make us stop sinning.  He gives us His power to acomplish His will.  Christ said that all authority under heaven I give to you.  By your statement we don't even have autority over our own heart once we accept Christ.  This just is not true.  Why would Paul keep urging people to put on Christ if that was a work that only Christ could do.  Or to Put to death whatever belongs to the earthly nature (verse 5).  We are to overcome, not God overcomes for us and leaves us still helpless.  God desires to return us to our original state, not leave us in the state that we are in.  Would you want your children to remain babies?

 

[sola fide]

Yes, God does empower us...that's my point exactly.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by sola fide
Yes, God does empower us...that's my point exactly.

Soli Deo gloria!

But without removing our authority over our own heart.

God has never remover our authority over our person.

 

[SnuP]

Galatians 6:
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

 

[Andrew]

QUOTE: "First off, you must discide were the will of a man is housed, the spirit or the soul."

I believe it is part of the unredeemed soul since we can will ourselves to do good or evil.

Some Christians equate heart with spirit when the two words are mentioned in the Bible. Other's like my pastor, believe there is a slight diff -- heart includes the will besides the spirit. ie when the Bible uses the word heart, it means spirit of the man + his will which is part of his soul.

so the spirit, led by the Holy Spirit (actually 2 become one) prompts the man via his soul to do X. At the same time the soul and /or flesh of the man tempts him to do Y. so his will chooses to do X or Y.

anyway, let's just go with your definition : heart = will & emotions.

so to answer your question: I wld say that in the first place, God does not redeem souls in the sense of thru the cross. we ourselves redeem our souls thru the Word. ie the Word is able to save our souls. --> it is our responsibility to renew our minds make our will and emotions line up with the Word and keep them under control of the spirit.

also, while God cannot break the will of the man and go against his free choice, he can certainly influence it thru his grace such that the man in his free will opens his heart to God again.