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Can God Make 2+2=5?

Can God Make 2+2=5?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 37.5%
  • No

    Votes: 10 62.5%
  • Its more complicated, I explained above.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    16

homohabilis117

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In some of my other discussions the answer has been "yes" to this question. In context, the topic was Noah's flood. My opinion is that given the evidence, a global flood that produced the entire fossil record would require miracles paramount to making 2+2=5. Can God do that? Do miracles violate the natural laws God Himself created? And if miracles don't violate natural law, how is a global flood and a young earth possible?
 

AV1611VET

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In some of my other discussions the answer has been "yes" to this question.
As it should be.
homohabilis said:
In context, the topic was Noah's flood.
Any topic will do.
homohabilis said:
My opinion is that given the evidence, a global flood that produced the entire fossil record would require miracles paramount to making 2+2=5.
Are you submitting the fossil record as evidence of the Flood?
homohabilis said:
Can God do that?
Indeed He can.
homohabilis said:
Do miracles violate the natural laws God Himself created?
Yes.
homohabilis said:
And if miracles don't violate natural law, how is a global flood and a young earth possible?
Good questions.
 
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SkyWriting

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My opinion is that given the evidence, a global flood that produced the entire fossil record

There is no evidence that The Flood produced a fossil record.
 
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SkyWriting

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And if miracles don't violate natural law, how is a global flood and a young earth possible?

If miracles are naturally occurring events, then they are not "miracles."
You've not thought this through?
 
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SkyWriting

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...require miracles paramount to making 2+2=5.

Miracles of Jesus unique to John's gospel
At a wedding in Cana water is turned into wine (2:1 - 11)

A royal official's son is healed (4:46 - 54)

During the Fall festival season in Jerusalem, a man is healed of a 38-year infirmity (5:1 - 9)

A man born blind is made whole (9:1 - 7)

In Bethany, Lazarus is resurrected after being dead for three days (11:38 - 44)

Peter miraculously catches 153 fish in his net (21:1 - 14)

Unique to Matthew's gospel
Two blind men are healed (9:27 - 31)

On the sea to Capernaum Peter miraculously walks on water (but soon sinks and is saved by Jesus - 14:28 - 31)

Coin appears in the mouth of a fish to pay for Jesus' and Peter's temple tax (17:24 - 27)
 
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homohabilis117

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Dead people coming back to life.
Did you have a question?
If miracles are naturally occurring events, then they are not "miracles."
You've not thought this through?
I am not saying miracles are "naturally occurring events", only that when they occur, their supernatural cause does not violate that natural framework in which they act. When God "wrote" the ten commandments, he did so by directly manipulating the matter composing the tablets. He did not make a desk appear from nothing, with a chisel ready for use. He simply used his finger, which was sufficient. The miracle did not create needless phenomenon to effect its purpose. If you think about it, the miracles described in the bible are surprisingly "natural". I am not saying they were natural phenomenon merely, just that the way they happen makes sense. When Jesus made water into wine, he does not make wine suddenly "poof!" appear. The miracle mediates one natural substance into another. When he multiplied (the word "multiply" is key), he expanded the quantity of a natural resource. The bread and fish did not simply appear from nowhere. Why didn't God open a literal door in the sky, and send down a giant Pegasus laden with bread and fish? Every obvious miracle never violates nature the way more stupendous myths do in other religions. The miracles of the bible, by comparison, are sensible and down to earth. They represent a transformation from an incomplete natural state, to an ideal natural state. And the thing that changes in each case is matter. Miracles are caused by the supernatural, but they do not violate the orderliness of that natural world. And most importantly, they leave something material behind as evidential "imprints". If we knew exactly where Jesus fed the multitudes, and excavated the site we should expect to find at least a lot of fish bones, or no traces at all. We would not expect to find something entirely contradictory, like say, evidence of a 100 foot deep lake.
 
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SkyWriting

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Miracles are caused by the supernatural, but they do not violate the orderliness of that natural world. And most importantly, they leave something material behind as evidential "imprints".

Who what when where?
 
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Look Up

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In some of my other discussions the answer has been "yes" to this question. In context, the topic was Noah's flood. My opinion is that given the evidence, a global flood that produced the entire fossil record would require miracles paramount to making 2+2=5. Can God do that? Do miracles violate the natural laws God Himself created? And if miracles don't violate natural law, how is a global flood and a young earth possible?

I haven't, frankly, thought about your question before, so far as I can recall. If one imagines man rather than God designing some mathematical construct around "2 + 2 = 5" I'm not sure it could not be done, but I don't know that the equation alone defines enough to go on. Of course if God can multiply two fish and five loaves into enough of both to feed "the five thousand," then He can turn four fish into five, but is that illustrative of the question you are asking?

Are you asking whether God can make a universe in which 2 + 2 always equals 5? I don't know what that means, therefore I can say neither "yes" nor "no" to the question whether God can make it so. God cannot multiply His own Being, though mathematically infinity + infinity = infinity, if that is relevant (which again I don't know). Can God make a universe in which two heterosexual couples together mean a fifth person is there? Or where two pairs of apples appear together(?), a fifth necessarily also appears? Maybe, but speaking of universes, aren't we passing through Alice's Looking Glass?

Nor do I follow your analogy between Flood fossil record and 2 + 2 = 5 unless you are claiming both are non sequiturs. I agree in some sense however that, if miracles don't violate natural law, a global flood and a young earth is not possible, if I read your question aright.

But I'm not sure I understand the relationship between miracles whose definition one might glean from the Bible and the possibility of 2 + 2 = 5, again I think because I still don't know what 2 + 2 = 5 might mean. And already on this thread miracles, one might say Biblical-type miracles, also seem hard to define in sweeping, perhaps philosophical terms even if we can recognize examples when we read of them in the Bible.

A suspension or violation of natural law might seem a good start, though I have reservations about divorcing "natural law" from supernatural causation and supervision. Isn't the ability of a human being to walk (for those who can) a sort of miracle? Think of all the nerve and muscle groups acting on the skeletal system, the mechanisms for balance and speed of feedback and response to make walking possible, not to mention the visual and cerebral processes needed to step over rocks or avoid objects moving in the walker's path.

Of course the parting of the Red Sea was unusual--not exactly unique in a sense if one includes the Elijah & Elisha crossings of the Jordan River. That sort of event violates--what?--the way gravity and entropy normally work? To say nothing of the timing which effected the deliverance of the Israelites and destruction of the Egyptian army, which seems a major point of the narrative.

Noah's Flood, the narrative insists, was unique--and therefore unusual. Arguable in the creation narrative, water and land (among other pairs in the narrative) were separated, and the separation was called "good." The Flood was then a kind of temporary violation of the good separation; water and land were joined together in a kind of "not good" judgment (much as one would argue that divine wrath and justice is another kind of good, for it is God's, and the narrative makes plain the sin of the descendants of Adam).

So where does that leave miracles? Where God is sovereign over all, for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, are miracles then merely unique or unusual acts of God, pattern breakers? They seem to be that, but more than that at least in that they say something, mean something, teach something to people (especially christologically, one might argue). And maybe in other ways, I don't know.

Or perhaps one might break down the categories somehow. Is "a transformation from an incomplete natural state, to an ideal natural state" the only category? Does the parting of the Red Sea fit such category? Or the turning of water into blood? Or darkness at noon? Or hail squashing Philistines at "the right time"? Or the collapse of Jericho's walls?

Then too, it is one thing to say God can work miracles and another to claim a particular thing represents or involves a miracle. A fossil may lie in the ground because God's natural laws had a great deal to do with it, or it may be there because some miracle was involved to put it there. Discerning the cause in any particular case would seem one divide in the matters with which you are concerned.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Let's simplify it a bit to "1 + 1 = 3". What would it mean if this were true? Well, if you are alone in a room, no one person could join you. Each time a person entered a room a second would appear also. That person would have to appear out of nowhere since two people could not enter the room. There is no way to get to two. Either 1 person comes and a second appears from nowhere so that now the total is three or three people come into the room together.

Now if there are 3 people in a room and one chooses to leave, does one vanish? Which one? Or is this a way to get to two? If one doesn't vanish, we have a universe that is multiplying entities perhaps infinitely fast. If one vanishes? I wonder what sort of world it would be if by someone walking into a room and then walking out, I could cease to exist.

Perhaps, it is not logically impossible but the implications are a bit terrifying. In any case, my premise is that we arrive at all our axioms (including this one) via induction. If a universe such as described existed, any entities that could survive could arrive at the observation that 1 + 1 always equals 3. I don't know what happens when three objects encounters three. Perhaps nothing. Only 2 might be impossible.

Now, what might make 1+1=3 impossible is if perspective mattered. If one person enters my room that would be fine, since I can observe 1. But if there is an external observer, then there would be 3 (also?).
 
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AV1611VET

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Let's simplify it a bit to "1 + 1 = 3". What would it mean if this were true? Well, if you are alone in a room, no one person could join you. Each time a person entered a room a second would appear also. That person would have to appear out of nowhere since two people could not enter the room. There is no way to get to two. Either 1 person comes and a second appears from nowhere so that now the total is three or three people come into the room together.

Now if there are 3 people in a room and one chooses to leave, does one vanish? Which one? Or is this a way to get to two? If one doesn't vanish, we have a universe that is multiplying entities perhaps infinitely fast. If one vanishes? I wonder what sort of world it would be if by someone walking into a room and then walking out, I could cease to exist.

Perhaps, it is not logically impossible but the implications are a bit terrifying. In any case, my premise is that we arrive at all our axioms (including this one) via induction. If a universe such as described existed, any entities that could survive could arrive at the observation that 1 + 1 always equals 3. I don't know what happens when three objects encounters three. Perhaps nothing. Only 2 might be impossible.

Now, what might make 1+1=3 impossible is if perspective mattered. If one person enters my room that would be fine, since I can observe 1. But if there is an external observer, then there would be 3 (also?).
Me, myself and I says, "That's pretty good!"
 
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homohabilis117

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Who what when where?
Who? Jesus
What? Feeding the Multitudes
When? Sometime, 1st century AD
Where? Somewhere near Bethsaida
As I said, this miracle, though having a divine cause it need not violate the universal laws God inscribed into the universe. For sure, it does not follow their normal (observed) patterns of operation. What I am saying is that God can use natural laws to affect his purposes. He is not going to do things that represent a complete non sequitur from what is being done. For example, water turns to wine. Fish and bread turns to more fish and bread. Dead people come back to life. These are the things the bible tells us. Most people dont invoke special cases for these miracles the way they sometimes do with the flood. If we take the bible as source, why is it necessary to say "well, the flood happened, but we don't know how different the world was, so a bunch of other (unmentioned) events happened too." Where the bible doesn't mention, we can just fill in the cracks with improbabilities? If you are going to say "the pre flood world was different, and this can explain how fire burned underwater (which it has to explain, as charcoal is found throughout the geological record) and other evidence inconsistent with out model", why not just explain it using an old earth model?
 
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homohabilis117

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I can make 2+2 = 5, because that can actually happen on occasion, no miracle required.
Just rounding errors. In some circumstances you really have to watch for those.
But 2+2 has not actually equaled 5. You have mistakenly asserted or been led to believe that it has. It is similer to when true premises lead to a false conclusion. An invalid augment is not valid because it is written on paper.
 
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homohabilis117

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Let's simplify it a bit to "1 + 1 = 3". What would it mean if this were true? Well, if you are alone in a room, no one person could join you. Each time a person entered a room a second would appear also. That person would have to appear out of nowhere since two people could not enter the room. There is no way to get to two. Either 1 person comes and a second appears from nowhere so that now the total is three or three people come into the room together.

Now if there are 3 people in a room and one chooses to leave, does one vanish? Which one? Or is this a way to get to two? If one doesn't vanish, we have a universe that is multiplying entities perhaps infinitely fast. If one vanishes? I wonder what sort of world it would be if by someone walking into a room and then walking out, I could cease to exist.

Perhaps, it is not logically impossible but the implications are a bit terrifying. In any case, my premise is that we arrive at all our axioms (including this one) via induction. If a universe such as described existed, any entities that could survive could arrive at the observation that 1 + 1 always equals 3. I don't know what happens when three objects encounters three. Perhaps nothing. Only 2 might be impossible.

Now, what might make 1+1=3 impossible is if perspective mattered. If one person enters my room that would be fine, since I can observe 1. But if there is an external observer, then there would be 3 (also?).
So you are saying observation determines reality?
 
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katerinah1947

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In some of my other discussions the answer has been "yes" to this question. In context, the topic was Noah's flood. My opinion is that given the evidence, a global flood that produced the entire fossil record would require miracles paramount to making 2+2=5. Can God do that? Do miracles violate the natural laws God Himself created? And if miracles don't violate natural law, how is a global flood and a young earth possible?

Hi,

In order for 2+2 = 5, something has to be added.

No matter where or how, you make, or God makes, that change, still a change was made to, the 2, or the +, or the =, or the 5, from what they were before to what they are, in the 2+2 = 5, example.

Thus 2 + 2 = 5, is never true without changing something in 2 + 2 = 4, and as such the two can never be the same, even with God.

LOVE,
 
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Tinker Grey

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So you are saying observation determines reality?
No. What we know about reality we know through observation.

To some extent, the question is whether 1 + 1 = 3 is logically possible. One way to come closer to deciding that is imagining what the consequences of those ideas are. So I posit a possible world where 1+1 actually equals 3. We wouldn't know 1+1=3 unless we could observe it. So I ask what it would be like to observe it.
 
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SkyWriting

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If you are going to say "the pre flood world was different, and this can explain how fire burned underwater (which it has to explain, as charcoal is found throughout the geological record) and other evidence inconsistent with out model", why not just explain it using an old earth model?

Charcoal found in layers is not connected with underwater burning.
There is no connection or idea there.
Charcoal could burn before....after....or not be burned at all and still form.
 
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homohabilis117

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Hi,

In order for 2+2 = 5, something has to be added.

No matter where or how, you make, or God makes, that change, still a change was made to, the 2, or the +, or the =, or the 5, from what they were before to what they are, in the 2+2 = 5, example.

Thus 2 + 2 = 5, is never true without changing something in 2 + 2 = 4, and as such the two can never be the same, even with God.

LOVE,
Thank you. I very much agree.
 
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