Can Faith Principles Work without a True Understanding of God?

[hhodgson]

I believe that before this question can be answered, one must determine what faith is. Just above Hebrews 11:6 is Hebrews 11:1 (Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen). I believe your second question was: Is it possible to have faith without understanding God? My personal belief is that yes, it is possible to have faith without understanding God. If I believe (know in my heart) that God is the creator of Heaven and Earth and that He gave His only begotten Son for my sins, then I can have faith in God. However, I still don't understand God, because His ways are not my ways and His thoughts are not my thoughts. How can a finite person really understand an infinite God?

Even in the years that I put my search for material things first in my life, I never lost my faith. I did not follow my beliefs, but I never forgot my beliefs. That is what faith is--belief. Faith is not a declared word, but a gut-wrenching, heart-felt knowing that my God reigns supreme and He is my salvation.

I may study the Bible and man-written words for years, but I will never fully understand God, but I can still have the assurance of my hope in Him even while not seeing it visibly.

Great stuff Granny... What's interesting is that this is your first post on CF, so Did God purposely put you here? Did He choose You to choose us. If so, Why us? Could it be that with His foreknowledge of all events that He foreknew that some of us may need "konked" on the head with your roller pin once in awhile?

This (may) be needed in order to help keep us in line with God's Word and achieve unity of Love and faith with the brethren. Anyway, I'm honored to be one of the first to welcome you to our forum. I think we may walk more softly now... and not carry such a big stick when we (once in a while)... beat each other up. Grandma has entered the house!

Btw... that thing (smiley) next to you is ME, and as usual... I'm first in line... I may need a few knots on my head.

Get this Granny...

Do you realize that God (may) have planned for YOU to "watch" over us... even before He created the foundation of the earth and universe? If so, What a mighty God we serve. He does work in mysterious ways.

All fun aside...

Come on in and share His Word with us and... sometimes, we even have a little fun. I hope you like a few smileys from me on occasion. I Love to share them. They speak (for me) at times when I'm too "chicken" to. Those times I usually hide behind the curtain...

Walk in... The Blessing

Harry... (Your Ohio neighbor) Way to go Buckeyes... Football national champs.
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[victoryword]

I believe that before this question can be answered, one must determine what faith is. Just above Hebrews 11:6 is Hebrews 11:1 (Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen). I believe your second question was: Is it possible to have faith without understanding God? My personal belief is that yes, it is possible to have faith without understanding God. If I believe (know in my heart) that God is the creator of Heaven and Earth and that He gave His only begotten Son for my sins, then I can have faith in God. However, I still don't understand God, because His ways are not my ways and His thoughts are not my thoughts. How can a finite person really understand an infinite God?

Even in the years that I put my search for material things first in my life, I never lost my faith. I did not follow my beliefs, but I never forgot my beliefs. That is what faith is--belief. Faith is not a declared word, but a gut-wrenching, heart-felt knowing that my God reigns supreme and He is my salvation.

I may study the Bible and man-written words for years, but I will never fully understand God, but I can still have the assurance of my hope in Him even while not seeing it visibly.

I beg to differ. The Bible says:

But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord. (Jer. 9:24)
​

God wants us to both UNDERSTAND and KNOW Him. Also, there is another verse in Hebrews 11 that says, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Heb. 11:3)

I do believe that God expects HIs people to have a true understanding of Him. God is not the author of "mystery religion". As a matter of fact, it is the heathen, not the Christian, who has his understanding darkened (Eph. 4:18).

 

[Granny2Shoes]

I read your message back to me, but it isn't in the thread above. This is probably due to the restrictions of being a new member until I receive my 10 posts. If you could please send it to me, so I can reply, I would appreciate it. Thanks, and my humble apology for this problem. Once I learn to navigate the website, I'm sure we'll have some lively discussions. Love in Christ.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[Granny2Shoes]

Victoryword, I cannot see your reply concerning faith and understanding God. I am trying to remember your reply I received a while back today. I remember the quote being from Jeremiah, but that is all I remember (senior moment). If you would be so kind to resend it, I would appreciate it, so I can reply.

I think we can agree on one thing: Without faith it is impossible to please God. I believe our differences are in the realm of perceiving. I seem to interpret faith and understanding differently than you. If we could discuss our perceptions, then maybe we could come to a mutual conclusion.

Yours in Christ,
Thelma

 

[victoryword]

Victoryword, I cannot see your reply concerning faith and understanding God. I am trying to remember your reply I received a while back today. I remember the quote being from Jeremiah, but that is all I remember (senior moment). If you would be so kind to resend it, I would appreciate it, so I can reply.

I think we can agree on one thing: Without faith it is impossible to please God. I believe our differences are in the realm of perceiving. I seem to interpret faith and understanding differently than you. If we could discuss our perceptions, then maybe we could come to a mutual conclusion.

Yours in Christ,
Thelma

Hi Granny, here is my earlier reply:

I beg to differ. The Bible says:

But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord. (Jer. 9:24)
​

God wants us to both UNDERSTAND and KNOW Him. Also, there is another verse in Hebrews 11 that says, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Heb. 11:3)

I do believe that God expects HIs people to have a true understanding of Him. God is not the author of "mystery religion". As a matter of fact, it is the heathen, not the Christian, who has his understanding darkened (Eph. 4:18).

Blessings

 

[victoryword]

Faith is like electricity. You don't have to understand it to use it.
When faith is used, understanding follows. It is like the key to wisdom.
Of course, it has to be faith in God and what He has said, not something we dreamed up.

The problem with this is that the Bible tells us that it is our failure to understand that enables Satan to steal the source of faith from us and then defeat us. Paul tell us in Roman 10:17, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Notice what happens when we fail to understand the Word:

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.... But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (Matt. 13:19, 23)​

So understanding has an important place in faith. If we did not need understanding then why does God need to raise up five-fold ministry gifts such as teachers in order to give us knowledge of Biblical truths?

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[victoryword]

Perhaps I misunderstood your post Renee. For that I apologize

 

[victoryword]

Perhaps a lot of this misunderstanding that I may be having with others is due to my failure to communicate clearly what I am trying to get at. From the foundation of Hebrews 11:6 which says that we must believe that "He is," I have always taken that to be more than just a reference to believing in God's existence. After all, the Bible has never attempted to defend God's existence. It has always assumed it.

Personally, Let's backtrack to Exodus 3:14 where we read, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." This is God's covenant name which being interpreted means "Whatever you need me to be, I will be." From that we understand that God is our healer, need-supplier, righteousness, sanctification, victory-banner, etc.

My question, is basically, are we able to exercise faith in God if we believe to be anything but the supplier of that which is good? Some on here actually believe that God is the creator of evil. Can you truly exercise faith in God if you believe that He dispenses both good and evil? If He is both the healer and sickness bringer? The one who sends the devil and also gives you victory over him? The one who tests with sin while still being your sanctification?

Many people cannot believe God to bring them out of a situation because they believe that He is the one who brought the situation on them. Some believe that He does it for mysterious but beneficial purposes and others believe that He is punishing them for some sin in their life. So, is it not important to understand God, i.e., know His character, if one can truly have the type of faith that actually gets answers to prayer and changes circumstances?

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[Granny2Shoes]

Hi Granny, here is my earlier reply:



Blessings

I'm finally getting the hang of navigating the threads. I haven't answered your reply earlier because I was wanting to get my facts right before I responded.

I went to my Strong's Concordance to make sure what I thought faith and understanding are, were correct. Faith comes from the Greek word "pistis", which came from the root word, "peitho". Pistis is a noun meaning persuasion, ie credence, conviction. This wasn't clear to me, so I went to the verb, peitho, which it is derived from. Peitho means to convince, to pacify or conciliate, to evidence or authority, to rely (by inward consistency)--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be confident, make fried, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

I then went back and read all of Hebrews 11 and noticed that all the examples that were given had actions attached. I surmised that this was probably what James meant when he said that faith without works is dead. I decided to see what Jesus said about faith. I only went into Matthew. In Matt 6:30 ..."will He not clothe you of little faith?" In Matt 8:10 He said, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel." In Matt 9:29 He said, "It shall be done to you according to your faith." From Jesus' words there are degrees of faith. I surmise from this that I can have faith if I am believe that I can trust God--it may not be a great faith, but nevertheless it is faith.

After doing this, I went back to my Strong's Concordance again to study understand. Understand comes from the Hebrew word sakal which means to be circumspect and hence intelligence. I really wasn't sure what being circumspect was so I went to my Webster Dictionary and it said that it meant attentive to all circumstances of a case or the probable consequence of an action, cautious, prudent, wary.

Your quote from Jeremiah cannot be fully understood without also reading verse 23. Your version of the Bible translates the key word "glory", mine translates it "boast". Jeremiah was telling the wise man not to boast in being wise, the mighty man not to boast in being mighty, the rich man not to boast in being rich, but if they must boast then boast that they understand and know God. Boasting is a sign of pride. In this verse Jeremiah states only three things that God delights in, but there are also many more things that God delights in. This constitutes only partial understanding of God.

In my first reply, I stated that I had faith and I still believe that I did. I always knew that if I needed help or someone to listen to me I could trust God. Looking back on what my research shows, it certainly shows that I did NOT have a full understanding of God or I never would have put the things of the world before Him. When I returned to God, I thought that I was the seed that fell to the side and the thistles (cares of the world) overtook, but God made it very clear that I was the seed that had no roots. He has emphasized that without solid roots I cannot survive as a Christian.

I hope this makes clear where I am coming from in my perception of faith and understanding, and maybe we can agree to just disagree and let God decide. After all, the perceptions we have are derived from the baggage we carry from generational curses (even to the third and fourth generations), and life situations; and each of us are unique. I believe we will be judged in our uniqueness, because I read somewhere in the Bible, we will all be judged by what we believe. I can agree that little faith has little understanding and great faith and great faith has great understanding, but I still believe that we as finite beings cannot understand an infinite God until we see Him face to face.

Yours in Christ,
Thelma

 

[hhodgson]

And if God gives the sickness &/or it is His will, why would one bother going to the doctor to get healed or take medicine? That would be a sin.

They sneak in when God is not looking...

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[hhodgson]

Victory Ward

Hey, not a problem!

BTW, my type was too large. I was not screaming. I am new to this site and am just learning how to do things.

Blessings & Shalom, my brother!
Renee

Uh-oh... Smiley competition!

(Just kidding)
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[now faith]

Hello Granny,welcome.

God's Word in my opinion is simple,and to the point.

The beliefs and doctrines of mankind creates confusion,it takes a Theologian to cast doubt on just about everything.
Often Word origins have multiple definition,due to the nuance of language.

So when we look a God's Word we simply must believe what it says,no matter what a certain word may mean in another book.
It's about literary devices,and meaning taken out of context of the overall intention of the Author.

Two things are happenig in Hebrews 11.
A Spiritual power is manifesting in a temporal environment.

All matter on earth has reached its final destination,this is the causative effect of Faith.
All matter in the Spitural realm is in the formative stage.

Faith being spiritual substance when manifested in the temporal world,brings to pass the matter in the formative spiritual realm.

First the faith is put fourth,as the substance,then the things or matter you receive is the evidence.

 

[Tina W]

Would everyone agree that faith confession of God's Word is one of the major teachings in the WoF? If that is the case, can this principle work without having a true understanding of God's character? One of the most familiar passages used in the WoF is Hebrews 11:6:

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.​

Personally, I don't believe that the writer of Hebrews (who, along with the late Kenneth Hagin, I believe is the Apostle Paul) was only referring to God's existence in the bolded part. I believe (from study mind you and not simply speculation) that He was talking about believing that God IS everything He says that He IS.

Now, on a somewhat speculative note, should this not include everything that He ain't? Is He the One responsible for sickness, disease, and other types of evil? If I am unsure that God is behind my problem then is my faith able to work in standing against a circumstance that in the back of my mind I might believe that God has something to do with it?

Your thoughts are appreciated. Also, even if your ideas are not the WoF norm, I still want to hear them, but don't expect me to be sugary sweet in my response to them

That's a very good point. You have to have some kind of understanding of who God is to effectively serve Him. Luke warm people serve Him not really knowing who He is or why they serve Him, without knowing what He does or would do and what He doesn't/wouldn't do etc. They are like the ones that Jesus described when He talked about the ones who's seed falls on shallow ground and get blown away with the wind verses those who's seed have deep roots and when the wind comes they can't be uprooted.

 

[Tina W]

I am not sure that I am understanding exactly what you are asking but...

I was asked to go and pray for a lady who had terminal cancer (I have seen many cancer patients healed) as I was sharing with her I got a sense from her (or God) that she was blaming God for her sickness and so I asked her... are you blaming God for your sickness?

She replied... Absolutely! I will never forgive God for what he has done to me and my family in giving me this cancer...

I said to her God cannot be your problem and your answer, he is either one or the other, if he is your sickness giver then he is not your healer and vice versa... You need to repent of blaming God for your sickness or you will not be healed...

She said well one thing I am telling you I will never forgive God so are you going to pray or not...

I said I will certainly pray but you must repent of blaming God for your sickness...

The next day I got a phone call from the lady's husband, he told me that she had passed away during the night...

If you are blaming God for your problem how can you be in faith that he is your answer, they are poles apart and contradict each other...

That's a very true point! How can God be your problem and your answer at the same time?

Does that mean that one should not trust God if that person fears he has a skewed understanding of God and should put their trust elsewhere?

No, keep trusting God but you have to do all you can to learn as much as you can about God too, to deepen your own understand and grow spiritually. Faith starts as a mustard seed but you have to feed it to make it grow spiritually.


I love this thread! There are a lot of good points here!

 

[Granny2Shoes]

Hello Granny,welcome.

God's Word in my opinion is simple,and to the point.

The beliefs and doctrines of mankind creates confusion,it takes a Theologian to cast doubt on just about everything.
Often Word origins have multiple definition,due to the nuance of language.

So when we look a God's Word we simply must believe what it says,no matter what a certain word may mean in another book.
It's about literary devices,and meaning taken out of context of the overall intention of the Author.

Two things are happenig in Hebrews 11.
A Spiritual power is manifesting in a temporal environment.

All matter on earth has reached its final destination,this is the causative effect of Faith.
All matter in the Spitural realm is in the formative stage.

Faith being spiritual substance when manifested in the temporal world,brings to pass the matter in the formative spiritual realm.

First the faith is put fourth,as the substance,then the things or matter you receive is the evidence.

Hi NowFaith,

It's good to be among Christians discussing God's word. I feel that God's Word as translated into English is not the exact original from the Hebrew and Greek or we wouldn't have so many versions of the Bible. While I believe that word for word of the original Word of God in those languages is true, the English translation is the translator's interpretation (especially when there are no English Words that can translate directly some of the Hebrew and Greek words). That is why I often go back to the root of a word to determine what was being said. I believe it was theologians that translated our different versions of the Bible. These "outside" references give me a better picture of what the scripture means.

The original post of the thread was not about all of Hebrews 11. I just read it all to get a better understanding of the discussion. The remark I made about James was just that. It probably shouldn't have been put in, but it was an "ah ha" moment on faith and works. The thread started with only Hebrews 11:6 and the question was: Can we have faith without understanding?

Victoryword and I differed in our opinions and I was stating my rebuttal to his assertion. I wanted to make sure we were not interpreting the words "faith and understanding" differently. If that were so, then it may not have been a difference of opinion, but a difference of our definition of those words. Perceptions are usually a majority of the reasons for differences.

I stressed my outside references because the Holy Spirit cautioned me that when I am in public, I am to leave myself at home--that when I am public, I am His emissary and everything that I do reflects back on Him. I consider this forum a public place. I was not trying to prove a point, I was merely trying to reconcile our differences and come to a mutual conclusion. I may have gone overboard in trying to leave my personal opinions out of it and state rationally how I arrived at my conclusions.

I also want what I write to be understood by anyone that reads my post. What may be simple to one is not simple to another. I would like to think that my reasons for believing what I do are rational and not fueled by emotions. I understood what you wrote in your explanation of Hebrews 11, but some others may have gotten lost in your explanation, which by the way I agree with, but thought it was a rather complicated way to explain faith. I thought Hebrews 11:1 said it quite nicely and very understandable.

I hope I did not stir up any hard feelings. I just wanted you to know where I was coming from.

Yours in Christ,
Granny2Shoes

PS: I probably should just leave the 2Shoes off. Everyone seems to call me Granny and that's OK.

 

[Truthfrees]

The thread started with only Hebrews 11:6 and the question was: Can we have faith without understanding?

Hi Granny,

The Thread title is "Can we have faith without understanding?", but the first paragraph says "Can we have faith without a TRUE understanding God's character?"

Understanding what God is saying and doing, is something we grow in, it's a huge topic, a lifetime of learning, and we'll only know "things" in part here. (1 Corinthians 13:9, 12)

So yes, we can have faith in God even if we don't fully understand what HE's saying or doing, but ONLY BECAUSE we know HE'S good and HE loves us, which means we understand HIS character.

But if we DON'T understand God's TRUE character can we have faith in Him? (EG: God is a good God who cares about us like children, He never lies, He's for us, not against us, etc, etc, etc)

I would say the more we realize God is good, (understand HIS character) the more we have faith for good things.

If we misunderstand how good God is (misunderstand HIS character), like thinking HE teaches us lessons by putting suffering and sickness on us, we'll have trouble having faith that God will heal us or deliver us from trouble.

IOW, our faith is directly connected to our understanding of God's character.

A misunderstanding of God's character negatively affects our faith.

FAITH means believing God.

IF we think God made us sick, which is a misunderstanding of HIS character, how can we believe HE'LL heal us?

Thinking HE made us sick automatically casts some degree of doubt on the belief that HE'LL heal us, precipitated by our misunderstanding of HIS character.

 

[Granny2Shoes]

Hi Granny,

The Thread title is "Can we have faith without understanding?", but the first paragraph says "Can we have faith without a TRUE understanding God's character?"

Understanding what God is saying and doing, is something we grow in, it's a huge topic, a lifetime of learning, and we'll only know "things" in part here. (1 Corinthians 13:9, 12)

So yes, we can have faith in God even if we don't fully understand what HE's saying or doing, but ONLY BECAUSE we know HE'S good and HE loves us, which means we understand HIS character.

But if we DON'T understand God's TRUE character can we have faith in Him? (EG: God is a good God who cares about us like children, He never lies, He's for us, not against us, etc, etc, etc)

I would say the more we realize God is good, (understand HIS character) the more we have faith for good things.

If we misunderstand how good God is (misunderstand HIS character), like thinking HE teaches us lessons by putting suffering and sickness on us, we'll have trouble having faith that God will heal us or deliver us from trouble.

IOW, our faith is directly connected to our understanding of God's character.

A misunderstanding of God's character negatively affects our faith.

FAITH means believing God.

IF we think God made us sick, which is a misunderstanding of HIS character, how can we believe HE'LL heal us?

Thinking HE made us sick automatically casts some degree of doubt on the belief that HE'LL heal us, precipitated by our misunderstanding of HIS character.

I don't and never have believed that God causes sickness. I do believe that many times our sicknesses are caused by our actions (such as diabetes from constantly overeating sugars and carbs, etc.). This is backed by Dr. Carolyn Leaf, a neuroscientist/Christian. Her books tell us that 75-95% of all physical, mental, and spiritual illness are caused by our thoughts and choices we make from them. She explains the scientific process for this with x-rays proving it. The percentages not caused from ourselves is probably caused by the enemy making warfare because we are trying to do God's Will.

I have had instances where God has caused me great mental pain, but it was because I had things buried so deeply in me, that only a shock to really unsettle me would shake it loose. God has been my psychiatrist (through His Holy Spirit) for many years now, taking me from problem to problem and working through them with me. Jesus took the whip so that we can be healed and when He was on the cross, He said, "It is finished." This is the TRUE character of God. That He gave His Son, Jesus, that we might be saved by grace, and not have to struggle under the Law.

We do agree on this. I was trying to stay away from the second part of the post on the cancer patient, but somehow got pulled into it.

Love in Christ,
Granny