Can ex-Catholics be saved - A detalied look ....

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zeland2236

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Can ex-Catholics be saved - a detailed look at the situation?

In 1985, I attended the first annual “Church Teaches Forum” which took place in Louisville, Kentucky. The keynote speaker at this event was Francis Cardinal Arinze. He gave an address to a 1,800 plus audience. One item he talked on was the subject of whether Catholics, who no longer attend Mass on Sunday, or who have left the Church for a non-Catholic religion, can be saved, if they do not return to the Catholic Church. He said: “The Catholic Church is not a free club; it is a necessary means of salvation established by Jesus Christ. Those who have known her, and left her, will not be saved”.


At first, this may sound like a strong or harsh statement, so let’s look at the mechanics of the Cardinal’s words in a step-by-step manner. What is presented here is an objective look at the situation. The key point is the term “have known her”. Only God can make the final judgment as to how well the person was aware of what they were doing when they left the church. One can't help wondering however, if the situation of an ex-Catholic is not similar to someone who takes a life raft and jumps off a ship at sea. The chances of them finding their way back on board are slim, as Hebrews 6:4-6 describes.

I will start with a little background info. From the first and third Commandment, (1st. I am the Lord, your God. You shall not have other gods besides me; 3rd. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day), we see that we are commanded to worship the One True God. This is a serious obligation. However, these two commandments do not tell us how we are to worship God.

At the Last Supper, Christ instituted the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and commanded the Apostles to “do this in memory of Me” (Luke 22:19). So the Mass is the manner, which the Lord has prescribed, for us to worship Him. The Mass is also the channel by which the merits and graces that Christ won for us on the cross, are transmitted to us, throughout time, through Holy Communion.

As is stated above, the obligation to worship the Lord is a serious one, so the Church obliges us to attend Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days under pain of serious (mortal) sin (this is the “how” mentioned above). Mortal means a sin causing the death of the soul, as opposed to a venial sin which does not totally deprive a person of God’s saving grace (see 1 John 5:16). The Mass is the highest form of worship and the most powerful prayer we can offer to God. So intentionally missing Mass on any of the above mentioned days is a serious sin.

Now some will say: “Where does the Church get the authority to make such a statement”? That authority comes directly from Christ! In Matthew 16:19, our Lord says to Peter: “I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”. Here, our Lord gives to Peter, as the head of His Church – the Office of Pope – the authority to make rules and regulations to govern the Church. You will note that this is an absolute authority; there were no conditions, exceptions or exclusions in our Lords commission to Peter.

It should also be noted, that this authority was not given to Peter personally as an individual, but to the office which Peter would represent, the office of the Pope (also referred to as “The Chair of Peter”). In Matthew 18:18 our lord again gives this same authority to all the apostles as a group. This authority and that given to Peter is passed on to their successors (Apostolic Succession - 2 Timothy 2:2.), and is exercised when the bishops come together for a Church Council.

So what happens when a person decides to leave the Catholic Church for a non-Catholic religion? Well the first Sunday, and each Sunday thereafter that they miss Mass, they commit a serious sin

Now, some will say that: “Well I left the Catholic Church, so their rules no longer apply to me – right?” “WRONG”! All baptized Catholics must die within the Church. As Cardinal Arinze said above, the Catholic Church is NOT a free club where we come and go as we please. When a person is baptized a Catholic, a special spiritual indelible mark is placed on their soul, which in fact makes their soul the property of the Catholic Church so to speak. This is why the devils in hell can tell a Catholic soul from a non-Catholic one. It is the same idea as when a Catholic man is ordained to the Priesthood. The Sacrament of Holy orders puts an indelible mark on his soul which differentiates him from a Catholic layman. In hell, the devils know which Catholics were priests or bishops.

Now, here is the final problem for the ex-Catholic. How can his or her sins be forgiven? Many non-Catholics say that they can go direct to God to have their sins forgiven. Even if this were true, there is still one problem. For our sins to be forgiven, we must repent and have a firm purpose not to commit that sin again (Acts 2:38). However, for the ex-Catholic, there is one sin that they have not repented of – the sin of missing Mass on Sunday. If they have no intention of returning to the Catholic Church, then those sins (and all other sins they may be guilty of) cannot be forgiven, and they are still in a state of serious sin.

To be saved, these individuals must return to the Church, go to the Sacrament of Confession, and become a practicing Catholic again. I might add a side note here. There are about 40 verses (OT & NT) in scripture that deal with or prefigure Christ's institution of the Sacrament of Penance (Confession). See John 20: 19-23 for a start.

To cast aside the “pearl of great price” is a serious error - and sin. The pearl of great price is the Catholic Faith, "the pillar and foundation of the TRUTH" - the “fullness of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) - given to us by Jesus Christ Himself and handed down throughout the ages by and through the Catholic Church.

Keep in mind that each one of us gets to travel this earthly road to heaven only once. If we blow it now, there is no second chance to do it all over the right way. So we better get it right the first time. Don’t be fooled by the ever so popular statement, “God won’t send me to hell for…” God doesn’t send anyone to hell. Through our own free will we send ourselves to hell by the choices we make here on earth. God merely ratifies that choice at the time of our judgment. Therefore let us choose wisely while we still have the chance. Pray to know the truth while there is still time, for at the moment of death, the time of grace will have passed – the time of Justice will have come. Let us do now what, on the Day of Judgment, we would then wish we would have done!

It is hoped that this writing will be of help to all those who read it. If this letter does not apply to you the reader, please pass it on to someone who might find it useful.

God bless.

_________________________________________________________________


References & Resources


Luther and the Bible - Dr. David Anders. Dr. Anders was a Presbyterian Bible scholar who did his PhD. Studies in Reformation History.

Church teaches forum 2017 Eternal Life Catachetical Materials by Fr. John A. Hardon, SJ. Catholic Teachings Roman Catholic Church
 
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Grandpa2390

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No, no, no. Just No. Anyone born into any pagan religion or cult can come to Jesus. No one is beyond redemption, no matter what they have done, unless they came to the full knowledge of the truth and then rejected it. the Bible even allows for the breaking of vows made to the true God if it is to keep you from disobeying the true God (such a vow of celibacy).
 
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zeland2236

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No, no, no. Just No. Anyone born into any pagan religion or cult can come to Jesus. No one is beyond redemption, no matter what they have done, unless they came to the full knowledge of the truth and then rejected it. the Bible even allows for the breaking of vows made to the true God if it is to keep you from disobeying the true God (such a vow of celibacy).


Typical flippant, off the cuff, shotgun approach type answer. Get serious.
 
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Grandpa2390

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Typical flippant, off the cuff, shotgun approach type answer. Get serious.
you are right. I shouldn't have bothered responding to a thread like this. Completely foolish of me. (even old men can be fools at times).

Though I wish you would seriously consider that Jesus can and will save anyone who accepts his grace :)
 
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Lepanto

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Can ex-Catholics be saved - a detailed look at the situation?

In 1985, I attended the first annual “Church Teaches Forum” which took place in Louisville, Kentucky. The keynote speaker at this event was Francis Cardinal Arinze. He gave an address to a 1,800 plus audience. One item he talked on was the subject of whether Catholics, who no longer attend Mass on Sunday, or who have left the Church for a non-Catholic religion, can be saved, if they do not return to the Catholic Church. He said: “The Catholic Church is not a free club; it is a necessary means of salvation established by Jesus Christ. Those who have known her, and left her, will not be saved”.

At first, this may sound like a strong or harsh statement, so let’s look at the mechanics of the Cardinal’s words in a step by step manner. I will start with a little background info.

From the first and third Commandment, (1st. I am the Lord, your God. You shall not have other gods besides me; 3rd. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day), we see that we are commanded to worship the One True God. This is a serious obligation. However, these two commandments do not tell us how we are to worship God.

At the Last Supper, Christ instituted the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and commanded the Apostles to “do this in memory of Me” (Luke 22:19). So the Mass is the manner, which the Lord has prescribed, for us to worship Him. The Mass is also the channel by which the merits and graces that Christ won for us on the cross, are transmitted to us, throughout time, through Holy Communion.

As is stated above, the obligation to worship the Lord is a serious one, so the Church obliges us to attend Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days under pain of serious (mortal) sin (this is the “how” mentioned above). Mortal means a sin causing the death of the soul, as opposed to a venial sin which does not totally deprive a person of God’s saving grace (see 1 John 5:16). The Mass is the highest form of worship and the most powerful prayer we can offer to God. So intentionally missing Mass on any of the above mentioned days is a serious sin.

Now some will say: “Where does the Church get the authority to make such a statement”? That authority comes directly from Christ! In Matthew 16:19, our Lord says to Peter: “I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”. Here, our Lord gives to Peter, as the head of His Church – the Office of Pope – the authority to make rules and regulations to govern the Church. You will note that this is an absolute authority; there were no conditions, exceptions or exclusions in our Lords commission to Peter.

It should also be noted, that this authority was not given to Peter personally as an individual, but to the office which Peter would represent, the office of the Pope (also referred to as “The Chair of Peter”). In Matthew 18:18 our lord again gives this same authority to all the apostles as a group. This authority and that given to Peter is passed on to their successors (Apostolic Succession - 2 Timothy 2:2.), and is exercised when the bishops come together for a Church Council.

So what happens when a person decides to leave the Catholic Church for a non-Catholic religion? Well the first Sunday, and each Sunday thereafter that they miss Mass, they commit a serious sin

Now, some will say that: “Well I left the Catholic Church, so their rules no longer apply to me – right?” “WRONG”! All baptized Catholics must die within the Church. As Cardinal Arinze said above, the Catholic Church is NOT a free club where we come and go as we please. When a person is baptized a Catholic, a special spiritual indelible mark is placed on their soul, which in fact makes their soul the property of the Catholic Church so to speak. This is why the devils in hell can tell a Catholic soul from a non-Catholic one. It is the same idea as when a Catholic man is ordained to the Priesthood. The Sacrament of Holy orders puts an indelible mark on his soul which differentiates him from a Catholic layman. In hell, the devils know which Catholics were priests or bishops.

Now, here is the final problem for the ex-Catholic. How can his or her sins be forgiven? Many non-Catholics say that they can go direct to God to have their sins forgiven. Even if this were true, there is still one problem. For our sins to be forgiven, we must repent and have a firm purpose not to commit that sin again (Acts 2:38). However, for the ex-Catholic, there is one sin that they have not repented of – the sin of missing Mass on Sunday. If they have no intention of returning to the Catholic Church, then those sins (and all other sins they may be guilty of) cannot be forgiven, and they are still in a state of serious sin.

To be saved, these individuals must return to the Church, go to the Sacrament of Confession, and become a practicing Catholic again. I might add a side note here. There are about 40 verses (OT & NT) in scripture that deal with or prefigure Christ's institution of the Sacrament of Penance (Confession). See John 20: 19-23 for a start.

To cast aside the “pearl of great price” is a serious error - and sin. The pearl of great price is the Catholic Faith, "the pillar and foundation of the TRUTH" - the “fullness of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) - given to us by Jesus Christ Himself and handed down throughout the ages by and through the Catholic Church.

Keep in mind that each one of us gets to travel this earthly road to heaven only once. If we blow it now, there is no second chance to do it all over the right way. So we better get it right the first time. Don’t be fooled by the ever so popular statement, “God won’t send me to hell for…” God doesn’t send anyone to hell. Through our own free will we send ourselves to hell by the choices we make here on earth. God merely ratifies that choice at the time of our judgment. Therefore let us choose wisely while we still have the chance. Pray to know the truth while there is still time, for at the moment of death, the time of grace will have passed – the time of Justice will have come. Let us do now what, on the Day of Judgment, we would then wish we would have done!

It is hoped that this writing will be of help to all those who read it. If this letter does not apply to you the reader, please pass it on to someone who might find it useful.

God bless.

_________________________________________________________________


References & Resources


Luther and the Bible - Dr. David Anders. Dr. Anders was a Presbyterian Bible scholar who did his PhD. Studies in Reformation History.

Church teaches forum 2017 Eternal Life Catachetical Materials by Fr. John A. Hardon, SJ. Catholic Teachings Roman Catholic Church

I agree, ex-Catholics are unlikely to be saved if they don't go back to the Church.
What an excellent post, thank you for sharing, zeland2236.
 
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redleghunter

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Now, here is the final problem for the ex-Catholic. How can his or her sins be forgiven? Many non-Catholics say that they can go direct to God to have their sins forgiven. Even if this were true, there is still one problem. For our sins to be forgiven, we must repent and have a firm purpose not to commit that sin again (Acts 2:38). However, for the ex-Catholic, there is one sin that they have not repented of – the sin of missing Mass on Sunday. If they have no intention of returning to the Catholic Church, then those sins (and all other sins they may be guilty of) cannot be forgiven, and they are still in a state of serious sin.

A circular argument frankly. When one makes the fount other than Christ for redemption, they have become a cult. Far be it from me to state Roman Catholics are in a cult. They are not. You just present your church as such.

The same circular argument you set up above is used by Mormons and Scientology.

The NT church looks nothing like the cold and wrathful form of your theology promoted.

Deformation of the New Testament Church and context of the Reformation
 
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FireDragon76

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This assumption begs so many questions, and skips over matters of theological debate that are not obvious or plain.

Roman Catholic clergy would do a lot better trying to minister to their people pastorally than trying to scare them all back into obedience. Even the current Pope agrees.
 
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FireDragon76

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Peter Kreeft is a Catholic apologist and even he never makes this sort of argument on why one should be Catholic. It's silly because it actually undermines faith in the Catholic vision of God as merciful. He admits that sometimes his Church has not done its best in ministering to people, and that is one reason people become alienated from the faith they were raised in.
 
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zeland2236

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Peter Kreeft is a Catholic apologist and even he never makes this sort of argument on why one should be Catholic. It's silly because it actually undermines faith in the Catholic vision of God as merciful. He admits that sometimes his Church has not done its best in ministering to people, and that is one reason people become alienated from the faith they were raised in.

Peter Kreeft is a Catholic apologist and even he never makes this sort of argument on why one should be Catholic. It's silly because it actually undermines faith in the Catholic vision of God as merciful. He admits that sometimes his Church has not done its best in ministering to people, and that is one reason people become alienated from the faith they were raised in.


Could you define specifically what you mean by the "Catholic vision of God as merciful"

Thanks

zeland
 
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He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:18, RSV)

In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13, RSV)

and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, (Ephesians 1:22, RSV)
 
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mea kulpa

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Can ex-Catholics be saved - a detailed look at the situation?

In 1985, I attended the first annual “Church Teaches Forum” which took place in Louisville, Kentucky. The keynote speaker at this event was Francis Cardinal Arinze. He gave an address to a 1,800 plus audience. One item he talked on was the subject of whether Catholics, who no longer attend Mass on Sunday, or who have left the Church for a non-Catholic religion, can be saved, if they do not return to the Catholic Church. He said: “The Catholic Church is not a free club; it is a necessary means of salvation established by Jesus Christ. Those who have known her, and left her, will not be saved”.

At first, this may sound like a strong or harsh statement, so let’s look at the mechanics of the Cardinal’s words in a step by step manner. I will start with a little background info.

From the first and third Commandment, (1st. I am the Lord, your God. You shall not have other gods besides me; 3rd. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day), we see that we are commanded to worship the One True God. This is a serious obligation. However, these two commandments do not tell us how we are to worship God.

At the Last Supper, Christ instituted the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and commanded the Apostles to “do this in memory of Me” (Luke 22:19). So the Mass is the manner, which the Lord has prescribed, for us to worship Him. The Mass is also the channel by which the merits and graces that Christ won for us on the cross, are transmitted to us, throughout time, through Holy Communion.

As is stated above, the obligation to worship the Lord is a serious one, so the Church obliges us to attend Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days under pain of serious (mortal) sin (this is the “how” mentioned above). Mortal means a sin causing the death of the soul, as opposed to a venial sin which does not totally deprive a person of God’s saving grace (see 1 John 5:16). The Mass is the highest form of worship and the most powerful prayer we can offer to God. So intentionally missing Mass on any of the above mentioned days is a serious sin.

Now some will say: “Where does the Church get the authority to make such a statement”? That authority comes directly from Christ! In Matthew 16:19, our Lord says to Peter: “I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”. Here, our Lord gives to Peter, as the head of His Church – the Office of Pope – the authority to make rules and regulations to govern the Church. You will note that this is an absolute authority; there were no conditions, exceptions or exclusions in our Lords commission to Peter.

It should also be noted, that this authority was not given to Peter personally as an individual, but to the office which Peter would represent, the office of the Pope (also referred to as “The Chair of Peter”). In Matthew 18:18 our lord again gives this same authority to all the apostles as a group. This authority and that given to Peter is passed on to their successors (Apostolic Succession - 2 Timothy 2:2.), and is exercised when the bishops come together for a Church Council.

So what happens when a person decides to leave the Catholic Church for a non-Catholic religion? Well the first Sunday, and each Sunday thereafter that they miss Mass, they commit a serious sin

Now, some will say that: “Well I left the Catholic Church, so their rules no longer apply to me – right?” “WRONG”! All baptized Catholics must die within the Church. As Cardinal Arinze said above, the Catholic Church is NOT a free club where we come and go as we please. When a person is baptized a Catholic, a special spiritual indelible mark is placed on their soul, which in fact makes their soul the property of the Catholic Church so to speak. This is why the devils in hell can tell a Catholic soul from a non-Catholic one. It is the same idea as when a Catholic man is ordained to the Priesthood. The Sacrament of Holy orders puts an indelible mark on his soul which differentiates him from a Catholic layman. In hell, the devils know which Catholics were priests or bishops.

Now, here is the final problem for the ex-Catholic. How can his or her sins be forgiven? Many non-Catholics say that they can go direct to God to have their sins forgiven. Even if this were true, there is still one problem. For our sins to be forgiven, we must repent and have a firm purpose not to commit that sin again (Acts 2:38). However, for the ex-Catholic, there is one sin that they have not repented of – the sin of missing Mass on Sunday. If they have no intention of returning to the Catholic Church, then those sins (and all other sins they may be guilty of) cannot be forgiven, and they are still in a state of serious sin.

To be saved, these individuals must return to the Church, go to the Sacrament of Confession, and become a practicing Catholic again. I might add a side note here. There are about 40 verses (OT & NT) in scripture that deal with or prefigure Christ's institution of the Sacrament of Penance (Confession). See John 20: 19-23 for a start.

To cast aside the “pearl of great price” is a serious error - and sin. The pearl of great price is the Catholic Faith, "the pillar and foundation of the TRUTH" - the “fullness of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) - given to us by Jesus Christ Himself and handed down throughout the ages by and through the Catholic Church.

Keep in mind that each one of us gets to travel this earthly road to heaven only once. If we blow it now, there is no second chance to do it all over the right way. So we better get it right the first time. Don’t be fooled by the ever so popular statement, “God won’t send me to hell for…” God doesn’t send anyone to hell. Through our own free will we send ourselves to hell by the choices we make here on earth. God merely ratifies that choice at the time of our judgment. Therefore let us choose wisely while we still have the chance. Pray to know the truth while there is still time, for at the moment of death, the time of grace will have passed – the time of Justice will have come. Let us do now what, on the Day of Judgment, we would then wish we would have done!

It is hoped that this writing will be of help to all those who read it. If this letter does not apply to you the reader, please pass it on to someone who might find it useful.

God bless.

_________________________________________________________________


References & Resources


Luther and the Bible - Dr. David Anders. Dr. Anders was a Presbyterian Bible scholar who did his PhD. Studies in Reformation History.

Church teaches forum 2017 Eternal Life Catachetical Materials by Fr. John A. Hardon, SJ. Catholic Teachings Roman Catholic Church


Great post btw

One thing i would like to point out is that all baptism is a sacrament of the catholic church it is one of the few sacraments that can be validly carried out by the unordained even a muslim can actually carry out a valid baptism if done so with valid intentions.

All baptised persons are baptised into the catholic faith so your post does not only extend to ex catholics but Catholics who are protesting... protestant catholics...aka protestants.
 
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zeland2236

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you are right. I shouldn't have bothered responding to a thread like this. Completely foolish of me. (even old men can be fools at times).

Though I wish you would seriously consider that Jesus can and will save anyone who accepts his grace :)

This is true, but on the condition that they sincerely repent of their sins. To be saved, a person must be free of all serious (mortal) sins IE all their mortal sins must be forgiven.
 
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This is true, but on the condition that they sincerely repent of their sins. To be saved, a person must be free of all serious (mortal) sins IE all their mortal sins must be forgiven.
If they repent of their sins, they ARE forgiven and, therefore, are free of the consequences of any and all serious sins.
 
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zeland2236

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Peter Kreeft is a Catholic apologist and even he never makes this sort of argument on why one should be Catholic. It's silly because it actually undermines faith in the Catholic vision of God as merciful. He admits that sometimes his Church has not done its best in ministering to people, and that is one reason people become alienated from the faith they were raised in.

You have made a slight misreading of what I said. My post is not an argument (discussion) on why one should be Catholic. It is only a discussion as to why ex-Catholics should return to the Church, and is based on Ezekiel 3:17-19, and 33: 7-9.

God bless
zeland
 
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Marvin Knox

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This is true, but on the condition that they sincerely repent of their sins. To be saved, a person must be free of all serious (mortal) sins IE all their mortal sins must be forgiven.
Every sin is "mortal".

Every natural person is on physical death row by nature.

Every natural person is spiritually dead, separated from God and an enemy of God by nature.

Every natural person must be born again "by grace - through faith".

"Sincere" repentance is part of the process of being convicted of sin and drawn to God by grace.

Receiving a Savior by faith requires by definition that a person understand that there is something which they must be "saved" from.

That something is the impending, eternal and just wrath of God because of our sinful nature and the "mortal" sins which naturally accompany it.
 
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Could you define specifically what you mean by the "Catholic vision of God as merciful"

Thanks

zeland

I think somebody that was raised in the Catholic church and doesn't find Jesus there and goes to a Protestant church and does find Jesus there, that God is not angry at them and they are not his enemy. God doesn't give stones when we ask for bread. What church you go to is ultimately a denominational issue and Catholics need to find better reasons to persuade people to be Catholic other than trying to sell people on the idea that there's no grace outside the Catholic Church (which is something that Lumens Gentium, if I remember correctly, actually states is not true).
 
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redleghunter

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You have made a slight misreading of what I said. My post is not an argument (discussion) on why one should be Catholic. It is only a discussion as to why ex-Catholics should return to the Church, and is based on Ezekiel 3:17-19, and 33: 7-9.

God bless
zeland
Could you please provide exegesis for the Ezekiel passages you mention above? As it stands you are applying eisegesis to these passages assuming they support your claim.
 
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