can demons move objects

[bbbbbbb]

Quick snynopsis: Our Lord cast demons out of a poor tormented victim, and chucked then into a herd of hogs, which then stampeded into the lake and drowned.

And that shows Demonic Power, think ye? Not very impressive, IMO. What happened to their magic powers?

Thank you.

 

[RDKirk]

This is actually a rather inane debate.

Let's say that demons can't push books off the table or blow out the candles.

Everyone agrees they can take possession of a person's body.

Help, me, Lord, but isn't that bad enough? Even if they can't blow out a candle, isn't that bad enough?

Why are people debating blowing out a candle?

 

[Eloy Craft]

Remember, that God governs the material world through angels
So the angels power varies from angel to angel according to it's particular function in the governance of the material world. Hence powers principalities thrones.
That being so, some angels function to govern matter does not require the power to move matter locally ie; for the local movement of material things. To move matter from one location to another. Some angels function of government does require the power to cause local movement. So, some angels can and some can't move things. The angels that can, are able in various ways according to their particular function, or as it is written in Scripture 'their proper place'. The rebellious angels who abandoned their proper place maintain the powers required for that place. So some demons were created with the power to move things some were not.

 

[Francis Drake]

Remember, that God governs the material world through angels
So the angels power varies from angel to angel according to it's particular function in the governance of the material world. Hence powers principalities thrones.
That being so, some angels function to govern matter does not require the power to move matter locally ie; for the local movement of material things. To move matter from one location to another. Some angels function of government does require the power to cause local movement. So, some angels can and some can't move things. The angels that can, are able in various ways according to their particular function, or as it is written in Scripture 'their proper place'. The rebellious angels who abandoned their proper place maintain the powers required for that place. So some demons were created with the power to move things some were not.

Agreed

 

[Dave-W]

The point of the OPs question is whether demons can move physical objects. My answer was no. Then there was a response that said that an angel came down, rolled the stone away from the tomb. But the response was not consistent with the question because the question was not about angels, but demons. However, the rolling of the stone away from the tomb was a one-time event, and there are no other references about angels moving physical objects anywhere in the New Testament.

The answers came from those who incorrectly conflate angels and demons.

 

[Dave-W]

Remember, that God governs the material world through angels
So the angels power varies from angel to angel according to it's particular function in the governance of the material world. Hence powers principalities thrones.
That being so, some angels function to govern matter does not require the power to move matter locally ie; for the local movement of material things. To move matter from one location to another. Some angels function of government does require the power to cause local movement. So, some angels can and some can't move things. The angels that can, are able in various ways according to their particular function, or as it is written in Scripture 'their proper place'. The rebellious angels who abandoned their proper place maintain the powers required for that place. So some demons were created with the power to move things some were not.

That is all speculation.

 

[Dave-W]

It is interesting that Jesus did a lot of new things that were not actually written in the Jewish Scriptures. Go through the Gospels. Jesus turning water into wine is not supported, feeding the five thousand is not supported, healing a blind man by spitting on dirt and putting it in his eyes, dying on the cross, being raised from the dead, and a lot of His teaching, including replacement of the Law with loving God and one's neighbour - you can't find actual OT Scriptures to support these things, so, by your own standards, Jesus was a fake - Or was He?

Actually most of that is either done in the OT or prophesied about.

Feeding 5000 - God feeding Israel in the wilderness
Healing the blind - happened in the OT
Loving one's neighbor was a direct quote of Leviticus 19:18.
His death and resurrection were prophesied in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53

Our Lord NEVER taught the Law was replaced.

 

[Hieronymus]

according to the scriptures they can guess and give extraordinary strength but no move objects

am i wrong

No, you're right.
I've seen it myself.

 

[Dave-W]

It is interesting that Jesus did a lot of new things that were not actually written in the Jewish Scriptures.

Actually the ENTIRE GOSPEL was in the Jewish scriptures according to Paul:

1 Cor 15.1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.​

The only scriptures extant at that time were the Hebrew Scriptures - the OT.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Actually most of that is either done in the OT or prophesied about.

Feeding 5000 - God feeding Israel in the wilderness
Healing the blind - happened in the OT
Loving one's neighbor was a direct quote of Leviticus 19:18.
His death and resurrection were prophesied in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53

Our Lord NEVER taught the Law was replaced.

No one knew that at the time. You are looking in hindsight through the writing of the Gospels and letters, which the contemporary Jews did not have then. The Pharisees, the principal Bible scholars of the time could not see Jesus in the Old Testament, otherwise they would not have had Him killed. It was only when the risen Jesus revealed to the two disciples at Emmaus all the OT references to Him that anyone knew the extent at which the OT spoke about Him.

For the ordinary people living in Israel at the time, The work and ministry of Jesus was unprecedented to them, and because they could not relate what He was doing to what they knew of the Scriptures, they either were amazed at Him and believed in him by faith, or they condemned Him.

The explanations of how He fulfilled OT prophecy about him were made by the Gospel writers who wrote about Jesus decades after His death and resurrection, and they had, which the Jews hadn't, the Holy Spirit present with them to guide them in their writing.

 

[Dave-W]

No one knew that at the time. You are looking in hindsight through the writing of the Gospels and letters, which the contemporary Jews did not have then. The Pharisees, the principal Bible scholars of the time could not see Jesus in the Old Testament, otherwise they would not have had Him killed.

They were blinded by the devil and our Lord called them on it:

John 5:39
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

They were blinded by the devil and our Lord called them on it:

John 5:39
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;​

So you are saying that all the eminent Bible scholars of the day were all blinded by the devil? So, by the same token, if God does a miracle today that brings thousands to Christ, who end up stable church members winning souls for Christ themselves, and the miracle is not expressly stated in the Bible, and a number of our respected and eminent Bible scholars condemn it, can I say they are blinded by the devil too?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Actually the ENTIRE GOSPEL was in the Jewish scriptures according to Paul:

1 Cor 15.1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.​

The only scriptures extant at that time were the Hebrew Scriptures - the OT.

That was according to Paul, speaking at least 20 years after the Resurrection. He received that knowledge by revelation, the same spirit of wisdom and revelation that he is praying that the Ephesians would receive from the indwelling Holy Spirit. You and I know that what Paul is saying is correct, but no one living in Israel before the Resurrection of Christ knew it.

 

[Eloy Craft]

That is all speculation.

All, nothing, never, always, these are words that indicate an emotional bias.
It's not all speculation


Cor-1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.


Visible and invisible things are mentioned above in Cor 1. On earth these things aren't necessarily persons. In Ephesians 6 below, they are referred to as angels and invisible. The things mentioned have to do with various functions of government. So, there are no material things in heaven it must be that a throne isn't a chair. It's safe to say that they are spiritual functions of government . Angels. Please read the scripture below

Ephesians 6-12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Scriptures reveal the governing function of angels when it refers to the fallen angels in terms that apply to functions of government. Please note demons are reffered to as the function of government they had before they were fallen.

 

[Dave-W]

Scriptures reveal the governing function of angels when it refers to the fallen angels in terms that apply to functions of government. Please note demons are reffered to as the function of government they had before they were fallen.

Correct. Those are ANGELS, not demons.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Correct. Those are ANGELS, not demons.

Demons are fallen angels. Furthermore they are still referred to by the function God created them with. Below is scripture about demons. Curious, you missed this Scripture. I posted it too.

Ephesians 6-12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[Dave-W]

Demons are fallen angels.

They are described very differently in scripture, Angels have bodies and do not seek to inhabit living flesh (human or animal); whereas demons are described in the NT as inhabiting or seeking to inhabit human bodies.

Below is scripture about demons. Curious, you missed this Scripture. I posted it too.

I did not miss it. It does not describe any of those principalities or powers inhabiting flesh. They are fallen angels, NOT demons.

In the greek, demons are described by the words daimonion or daimōn. Those words do not appear in that passage. Instead it uses words archē, exousia, and kosmokratōr. Those are NOT demons. They are fallen angels.

Tell me: Why are you so insistent that fallen angels and demons are the same thing?

 

[Eloy Craft]

They are described very differently in scripture, Angels have bodies and do not seek to inhabit living flesh (human or animal); whereas demons are described in the NT as inhabiting or seeking to inhabit human bodies.

I did not miss it. It does not describe any of those principalities or powers inhabiting flesh. They are fallen angels, NOT demons.

In the greek, demons are described by the words daimonion or daimōn. Those words do not appear in that passage. Instead it uses words archē, exousia, and kosmokratōr. Those are NOT demons. They are fallen angels.

Tell me: Why are you so insistent that fallen angels and demons are the same thing?

For one God created humans and angels. Demons would be a third category of rational being as you see it. My mother is Greek She used to call me vray diabolos. the first is phonetic. It meant you devil. The devil is Satan for Greeks.

The word demon or it's equivalent meant all spiritual beings to many ancient cultures whether bad or good, and the word was adopted to signify the bad ones for Christians. Plus a word means what the user intends. If it is meant to mean a fallen angel that what it means when used. Your argument is akin to saying people aren't celebrating Christ's resurrection if they call it Easter.

 

[Dave-W]

For one God created humans and angels. Demons would be a third category of rational being as you see it.

We are given exactly ZERO information on the genesis of demons so it is useless to speculate.

And for all we know, God may have created hundreds or thousands of categories of rational beings. We do not know one way or the other.

 

[Eloy Craft]

And for all we know, God may have created hundreds or thousands of categories of rational beings. We do not know one way or the other.

Yet you are willing to believe that is true with exactly ZERO information for the sake of argument but not demons. The words signify a thing they aren't the thing. Words signify a concept and the concept doesn't change but the word for it can.