Can Creationists justify not being Flat Earthers?

Black Dog said:

Yes, but when the writers think stars are going to fall to earth like leaves, they probably aren't aware the earth is a sphere.

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I can't see how that would matter.
It could be 200 feet in diameter
and the description wouldn't need
to change.

Black Dog said:

And scripture (from Here): for a flat earth

Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth's surface is required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...”

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Daniel 4: It is a "vision". Anything can be seen in a vision.
Matthew 4:8 It implies a rotational earth seen in the orbit.
Revelation 1:7 TV and Internet make it possible.

No. There is no verse in the Bible suggests a flat earth.

Black Dog said:

The following quotes all make sense for a flat earth only.

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

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Isaiah 11: A map has corners.
Job 38: North pole and South pole are ends of the earth.

Black Dog said:

Yes, but when the writers think stars are going to fall to earth like leaves, they probably aren't aware the earth is a sphere.

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How would that have anything to do with the shape of the earth?

Since believing that God created the universe( Creationist) is not equivalent to believing every word of the Bible is historic fact ( Historic Literalist), the basic premise of the OP which assumes that they are one and the same thing is incorrect so any attempt to engage the mechanism of logic using that false equivalency will result in erroneous conclusions. Though a Historic Literalist must be a Creationist, a Creationist not only does not have to be, but from my experience, is not likely to be an Historic Literalist. The majority of Biblical believers are Creationists , non - Historic Literalists and reject the idea of a flat earth. Additionally even for those that are Historic Literalists , since the Bible does not specifically state "the earth is flat" there is no "literal" case for a flat earth.

juvenissun said:

Isaiah 11: A map has corners.

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And how many maps do you think were around in Isiah's days?

juvenissun said:

Job 38: North pole and South pole are ends of the earth.

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Really? If you walk north from just south of the north pole and continue in a straight line, what happens then? Do you fall off the earth or something?

Herman Hedning said:

And how many maps do you think were around in Isiah's days?

Really? If you walk north from just south of the north pole and continue in a straight line, what happens then? Do you fall off the earth or something?

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1. I believe there were some maps.
2. Then, you walk toward south.

Black Dog said:

Yes there (are scripture verses that show a flat earth). I quoted some. You are changing the meaning, and that's my point. Why do creationists take creation supporting verses literally, but flat earth supporting verses aren't taken literally.

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Yep, Black Dog is right. The Bibles are very clear that we live on a flat earth, underneath a hard dome, underwater, with the stars being little lights attached to the inside of the dome. There are dozens of verses that show this view, which is the obvious and natural view one would have when outside looking around. That's why practically all ancient cultures thought of the world the same way.

Flat Earth-

Bible tells us that the earth is flat like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges as only a flat plane would (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), is set on a foundation, like a table (2Sm 22:16, Ps 18:15, 102:25, Pr 8:27-29, Is 48:13), has a length as only a flat plane would (Dan 4:11, Job 11:9, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Job 38:44, Jrm 16:19), that it is a circular disk (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) heaven (Job 28:24) or mountain (Matt 4:8) or which is impossible for a sphere, but possible for a flat disk. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, any one of these passages shows a flat earth. Taken together, they are even more clear. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.


Nothing suggests otherwise. As we've seen, the only thing suggesting a sphere is a deliberate mistranslation of the word "chuwg" in Isa 40:22, which means "flat disk", not “sphere”. The Hebrews have a word for "sphere", it is "dur". The writer would have used "dur" if he meant "sphere". This is clear in many other places in the Bibles where the world "dur" is used.

From a Christian standpoint, this is a good thing, because if Is 40 did read "dur" instead of "chuwg", then it would contradict all those other equally clear references to the earth as a flat disk.


Geocentrism-

The Bible describes the earth as unmovable, set on a foundation of either pillars in water (1 Sam 2:8, 1 Chr 16:30, Job 9:6, 38:4, Psa 24:1-2, 75:s3, 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 136:6). It also tells us that, although the earth does not move, the sun and stars do move about it (Josh 10:12, Psa 19:4-6, 50:1, Ecc 1:5 (note “returns”, not perspective), Hab 3:11). And that the stars could be dropped down onto the earth like fruit falling from a tree (Rev. 6:13). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show geocentrism. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.



We live in a Planetarium-

The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal bowl made by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29, Ezk 1:26), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Ex 24:10 suggests that it is like sapphire. Joshua 10:12 estimates how far the Sun and Moon are from Earth’s surface. The Sun was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Gibeon, and the Moon was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Aijalon, showing that one wasn’t sufficient for both valleys (too close). So some basic trigonometry shows that they are therefore at a roughly similar height as the valleys are from each other – which is around 20 miles. Similarly, the whole Star of Bethlehem story in Mt (where a star designates a single house) makes no sense if stars are millions of miles across, but makes perfect sense if the stars are little lights hanging from a dome above us. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. And again, many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Christian biblical scholars know that the Bibles give a flat earth as well.

As Christians, we can see this as God speaking to the people in language they'd understand, just as he used metaphor to speak of the creation, in Gen 1. However, literalists do exist, and to be consistent, it seems more and more Creationists are embracing a flat earth view. https://christianflatearthministry.wordpress.com/

A simply youtube search turns up dozens too.

In Christ-

Papias

Black Dog said:

No, now you are changing the meaning of the verses. Why do creationists take creation supporting verses literally, but wont take flat earth supporting verses literally.

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That has always puzzled me because the bible is equally literal on both creation and flat earth. The acceptance of creation was never really questioned until quite recently while both the earth as a sphere and the sun as the centre of the solar system has had quite a few centuries more to reach acceptance to all but the most uneducated of people. It may take a few more decades, or perhaps even centuries, for modern astrophysics and evolution to reach the same level of acceptance as the heliocentric solar system.

Black Dog said:

No, now you are changing the meaning of the verses. Why do creationists take creation supporting verses literally, but wont take flat earth supporting verses literally.

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No offense to you, Black Dog, but I have never talked with an atheist who could interpret the Bible properly. They're too busy trying to find gotchas or inconsistencies instead of trying to understand what's being said. Someone will read where Jesus said, "I am the door" and cry foul because Jesus wasn't made of wood. Then then'll read that John saw a great red dragon and cry foul because there are no such things as dragons.

Although this lack of ability to understand the Scriptures is disappointing (we end up talking past each other), it's no surprise. After all, unbelievers *can't* understand spiritual things...

(1Co 2:14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

dysert said:

Although this lack of ability to understand the Scriptures is disappointing (we end up talking past each other), it's no surprise. After all, unbelievers *can't* understand spiritual things...

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So the contents of the bible means whatever you want it to mean?

dysert said:

No offense to you, Black Dog, but I have never talked with an atheist who could interpret the Bible properly. ......, because they are spiritually discerned.

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Did you read the two posts prior to yours?

In Jesus' name-

Papias

Herman Hedning said:

So the contents of the bible means whatever you want it to mean?

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Of course not.

Papias said:

Did you read the two posts prior to yours?

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Yes.

Black Dog said:

No, now you are changing the meaning of the verses. Why do creationists take creation supporting verses literally, but wont take flat earth supporting verses literally.

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Don't lump all creationists together.

I believe in a literal 6-day creation, but I know the Earth is spherical.

As for the "Ends of the Earth".... the word "Earth" can also mean "the known lands" or "continents" or "ground" and the lands do have an end, it's where they meet the sea, lol. The "Corners of the Earth" are obviously referring to the edges of the continents.

And Revelation does indeed refer to TV. You know what else refers to technology? The Bible refers to technology that did not exist back then, like this passage:

Ezekiel 39:8-15:

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

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Anyone wanna guess what the half-life of most nuclear payloads are? Basically, what I think this is saying, is that the Israelites will loot all of the nuclear weaponry the enemies brought, and it will be enough to heat their homes, run their power, etc for Seven Years.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.

14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

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So... what we have in these passages...

There will be "men of continual employment" (professionals?) to bury the dead, and if someone sees a bone, they will set a sign near it and let the professionals handle it, and get away from it, and they will be buried downwind (v11).

That sound familiar to anybody? That sounds like standard procedure for nuclear fallout -- bury everything downwind, and if you find any irradiated remains, put a hazard sign next to it and let the professionals come and deal with it.

Now obviously, this stuff wouldn't have been known back then -- God had to use language that the people then understood, but yet say it in a way that we might understand today, with our knowledge. There are also references to intelligent weaponry (I forget which verse, it talks about people with bows and arrows, that novices will be able to shoot bows as though they were experts, but the way it was worded in the original writings, the expertise is applied to the weapon, not the shooter which implies the weapon itself would have great precision, regardless of the wielder's skill).

etc. etc.

EDIT: Also, Revelation says that the death of the 2 Witnesses will be seen by the whole world, which also refers to TV News Coverage.

Xalith said:

As for the "Ends of the Earth".... the word "Earth" can also mean "the known lands" or "continents" or "ground" and the lands do have an end, it's where they meet the sea, lol. The "Corners of the Earth" are obviously referring to the edges of the continents.

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Don't you think they know this already?

Black Dog said:

Obviously I wouldn't be talking about taking hold of the ends of the earth. That applies to a flat earth.

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So.....you being on a globe shaped earth.....how would you describe gathering
your people using the four (or 8) directions you saw them leave in?
You may imagine the earth is 200 feet in diameter, if that helps.

Keep in mind that the earth is 99.98 percent flat.