Can Christians Serve Two Countries?

[SkyWriting]

Buying food for a barbecue, buying fireworks, is not shopping?

It's all voluntary. And the bbq is a frequent event.

 

[AlexDTX]

It's all voluntary. And the bbq is a frequent event.

All holiday shopping is voluntary.

 

[aieyiamfu]

Today is July 4th, which is the day the United States declared its independence from Great Britain. In my own journey of life I had gone from a rebellious pagan against my country, to a believer in Christ who was encouraged by other Christians to be a patriot for my country, to a biblical anarchist. When I was a patriot, I grimaced at the thought of Americans celebrating Cinco de Mayo (5th of May) which is the day that Mexico declared its Independence from Spain. Also, how can Mexicans emigrate to the USA to become American citizens and still honor Cinco de Mayo? But the truth is, it has been capitalized by American merchants seeking another excuse to have a sale to lure customers in to shop.

Which brings me to the point of my question. Jesus said that a man can not serve two masters. He will either hate the one and love the other, or hold to one and despise the other (Matt. 6:24). The context of his statement is either serving God or money, but as a principle it could be any two things in opposition.

I am asking this question because of another thread on the forum which declared that Jesus was an anarchist. The author of that thread did not really invite conversation, which is why, I believe, it never took off. But, as I said in the beginning of this thread, I am now a biblical anarchist, by which I do not mean I believe in rebellion to earthly governments.

Instead, I mean I have one master, my Father in heaven, who is my king and I am a subject of his kingdom. How then, could I be a patriot to an earthly government at the same time I am a patriot to my Father's kingdom? So how do you all reconcile these two things? For I do not believe that such expressions as "for God and country" are biblical. Neither do I believe that God blesses any political organization, let alone America. He blesses those that are in Christ, since it is in Christ only that all blessings flow. What do you think?

I agree and find myself in a very similar situation.

 

[aieyiamfu]

They are not the same thing; we just use similar language when describing them. To be a "citizen" of a heavenly estate is not actually to have voting rights or anything like that, you know. It's just a reference to one's loyalty, and there's no conflict between serving God and serving one's country.

I believe there is and I say that as a veteran and one time nutty right wing flag waver.

 

[aieyiamfu]

While I understand what you mean, I still see this as a conflict of interest. How do you reconcile Jesus telling us to not murder, turn the other cheek and not to resist violence with joining the military and invading other countries?

It cannot be reconciled, there is no call to arms for followers of Christ until he makes that call, which I believe will truly be the war to end all wars.

 

[AlexDTX]

I agree and find myself in a very similar situation.

I, too, am a big fan of Frederick Bastiat. His book, The Law, opened my eyes as to the real purpose and source of government. Thank you for your encouragement.

 

[Xalith]

It cannot be reconciled, there is no call to arms for followers of Christ until he makes that call, which I believe will truly be the war to end all wars.

If one takes the Book of Revelation literally, even then Christ won't make a call to arms, because He Himself.. or rather God the Father... calls down fire from the sky to devour everybody who takes up arms against the Kingdom at the end of the Millennium. The only weapon any saint in the Bible is ever depicted as using, is the "Sword that proceeds from the mouth" and Paul tells us what that is in Ephesians: It's God's Word, aka, the Logos, aka, the Scripture.

 

[SkyWriting]

All holiday shopping is voluntary.

So your complaint is the choices people are making?
How's that working for you?
I don't like the messes people leave in the park either.
But that's not the holiday making the mess.

 

[AlexDTX]

So your complaint is the choices people are making?
How's that working for you?
I don't like the messes people leave in the park either.
But that's not the holiday making the mess.

I am not complaining about anything. I started this thread with the question, Can a Christian serve two countries? My take is no. We are citizens of the Kingdom of God and are regarded by the Bible as ambassadors of Christ, pilgrims and strangers in a strange land of which we have a temporary sojourn. I had already stated that as guests we are to obey the laws of the land we are in, however, I question our becoming servants of the nation. Jesus said we can not serve two masters.

The point of shopping is a secondary observation that the government of the United States (and other nations) are controlled by corporations who use the government to make a profit. When George Bush Jr attacked Iraq without justification or provocation, he told the American people to continue shopping to support the war. Now that the banks have succeeded in creating a national law requiring everyone to have health insurance, insurance companies in their advertisements use this law as a selling point. The United States has become a fascist country (defined as the cooperation of government to facilitate corporations) with the veneer of a republic.

I also believe that some people are called by God to work in government, but they are the few not the majority. I left the Christian right wing political movement because I see it as a distraction to the work of the Kingdom of God, for whom we are all called to serve if you are born again. Our Father's business is sharing the gospel, not fruitlessly spinning our wheels in the political arena which is rigged to serve the American aristocracy.

 

[Albion]

I am not complaining about anything. I started this thread with the question, Can a Christian serve two countries? My take is no. We are citizens of the Kingdom of God and are regarded by the Bible as ambassadors of Christ, pilgrims and strangers in a strange land of which we have a temporary sojourn. I had already stated that as guests we are to obey the laws of the land we are in, however, I question our becoming servants of the nation. Jesus said we can not serve two masters.

These kinds of debates usually turn on interpretations of a few words here or there. IMHO, what you've said here is entirely defensible, and not extreme, regardless of whether or not a reader agrees with the statement. Were we to change the wording a little bit...no, it might not be; but that's a different matter and has nothing to do with what you've written.

 

[SkyWriting]

I am not complaining about anything. I started this thread with the question, Can a Christian serve two countries? My take is no. We are citizens of the Kingdom of God and are regarded by the Bible as ambassadors of Christ, pilgrims and strangers in a strange land of which we have a temporary sojourn. I had already stated that as guests we are to obey the laws of the land we are in, however, I question our becoming servants of the nation. Jesus said we can not serve two masters.

The point of shopping is a secondary observation that the government of the United States (and other nations) are controlled by corporations who use the government to make a profit. When George Bush Jr attacked Iraq without justification or provocation, he told the American people to continue shopping to support the war. Now that the banks have succeeded in creating a national law requiring everyone to have health insurance, insurance companies in their advertisements use this law as a selling point. The United States has become a fascist country (defined as the cooperation of government to facilitate corporations) with the veneer of a republic.

I also believe that some people are called by God to work in government, but they are the few not the majority. I left the Christian right wing political movement because I see it as a distraction to the work of the Kingdom of God, for whom we are all called to serve if you are born again. Our Father's business is sharing the gospel, not fruitlessly spinning our wheels in the political arena which is rigged to serve the American aristocracy.

Not a problem. Only the US follows the call for people to choose representatives
and have those laws created apply to the lawmakers.

That's why we are a Christian nation.

12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way
you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

 

[AlexDTX]

These kinds of debates usually turn on interpretations of a few words here or there. IMHO, what you've said here is entirely defensible, and not extreme, regardless of whether or not a reader agrees with the statement. Were we to change the wording a little bit...no, it might not be; but that's a different matter and has nothing to do with what you've written.

Thank you. Albion.

 

[AlexDTX]

Not a problem. Only the US follows the call for people to choose representatives
and have those laws created apply to the lawmakers.

That's why we are a Christian nation.

12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way
you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

I understand your point of view, but I do not think there is such a thing as a "Christian" nation. There are Christians who live in a nation, and they may be the majority, but I don't believe any government can be called a "Christian" nation unless their governor is Jesus Christ. Only the Kingdom of God is a Christian nation. But I suppose you mean that Christians formed this government, and I question even that. Certainly our founding fathers were part of what might be called a Christian culture where Christian values influenced the morays of a people. However, I do not think the founding fathers had any intention of creating a "Christian" nation. As I have thought long and hard on the topic, the only reason I can see for forming a federation of states was financial.

Do not think that the states were colonies of England. They were not. They were sovereign governments. The revolutionary war was not to throw off England as their government, but to stop England from trying to be their government

All the states were already sovereign nations before the Confederation of States, followed by the United States. It was a mere 3 years before the Articles of Confederation were scrapped. There was an aristocracy back then within the colonial states who wanted to increase power. It is noteworthy that the Bill of Rights were an amendment, not central to the US Constitution. A set of amendments made because the states saw the hand writing on the wall regarding the erosion of their sovereignty. It was a last ditch effort to protect those rights.

We have a government and a governor to whom we belong, Jesus Christ. Let us not divide our loyalties. And as a post script, I would also add that God does not bless America nor any other political organization. God's blessing abides in one place only: the man Christ Jesus. All believers who abide in him participate in his blessing. Note, too, the English word, "blessing", is an old English compound word bled-sion which means "blood covering". It was understood by our English ancestors that when they were covered in the blood of Jesus, they prospered and had favor with God. Again, for a nation to receive favor from God, the majority of people need to abide in Christ.

 

[RDKirk]

They are not the same thing; we just use similar language when describing them. To be a "citizen" of a heavenly estate is not actually to have voting rights or anything like that, you know. It's just a reference to one's loyalty, and there's no conflict between serving God and serving one's country.

How can you be loyal to two different kings--especially two kings with differing goals?

 

[Albion]

How can you be loyal to two different kings--especially two kings with differing goals?

Oh, I don't know. I'm loyal to my soccer team and I'm also loyal to my church. I don't really see the conflict.

 

[RDKirk]

God must be put above everything else but this does not mean it is impossible to also serve your country. If your country was being invaded and you chose to defend it then there would be nothing wrong with this because it would still be in accordance with the will of God. If your country wants you to do something that goes against what God has said then it should be rejected.

Does this work equally for Christians in China? North Korea? Iran?

This is something we have to consider: When Daniel was a captive, taken from his own nation into the government of one of the most despotic rulers in history, he excelled as an administrator in that government--the king's very best administrator, in fact. Yet, he maintained such a clear detachment from that government that when it was overrun by another nation, he slid effortlessly into service of the new king. Despite his excellent service to one foreign king and then to another and then to yet another and then another, he always knew his loyalty was to the king of his fathers. Nobody ever mistook him for a Babylonian, and he never mistook himself for a Babylonian.

 

[RDKirk]

Oh, I don't know. I'm loyal to my soccer team and I'm also loyal to my church. I don't really see the conflict.

I have spoken to a number of Christian parents who are having difficulty reconciling the fact that their kids' soccer games are played on Sunday morning. They are having difficulty with that. And most often, getting their children to service loses out to soccer.

 

[RDKirk]

Romans 13:1-7.

When I was on active military duty stationed in other countries, we operated with a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) between the US military and those host nations. Standard requirements of every SOFA I ever served under were these:

1. Obey their laws.
2. Honor their officials (yes, even salute their flag, their national anthem, and their military officers)
3. If we lived off-base, pay any taxes they levied upon us.

Isn't it interesting that our SOFA levied the same requirements on us as deployed soldiers as Romans 13 does on Christians in these various earthly nations?

Yet, we never for a moment got confused about our nationality. Obeying their laws, honoring their officials, and paying their taxes did not cause us to think we were citizens of those countries. We obeyed their laws, honored their officials, and paid their taxes only by command of our own commander, and to satisfy his purposes.

 

[Albion]

I have spoken to a number of Christian parents who are having difficulty reconciling the fact that their kids' soccer games are played on Sunday morning. They are having difficulty with that. And most often, getting their children to service loses out to soccer.

I don't know that this shows the impossibility of being "loyal" to two different entities. Not at all. The problem with this thread (or its main proposition, to be more accurate) is that it suggests that it's impossible to chew gum and walk straight at the same time. It's not.

Yes, there are choices to be made and possible conflicts to be resolved, but the Biblical point is not well understood if it's boiled down to "You cannot do anything other than pray and read your Bible 24 hours a day or else you're nothing but a slave to 'the world.'"

 

[RDKirk]

I don't know that this shows the impossibility of being "loyal" to two different entities. Not at all. The problem with this thread (or its main proposition, to be more accurate) is that it suggests that it's impossible to chew gum and walk straight at the same time. It's not.

Yes, there are choices to be made and possible conflicts to be resolved, but the Biblical point is not well understood if it's boiled down to "You cannot do anything other than pray and read your Bible 24 hours a day or else you're nothing but a slave to 'the world.'"

It's impossible to ride two horse simultaneously if one has only one butt.