Can Christians Serve Two Countries?

[Winepress777]

Today is July 4th, which is the day the United States declared its independence from Great Britain. In my own journey of life I had gone from a rebellious pagan against my country, to a believer in Christ who was encouraged by other Christians to be a patriot for my country, to a biblical anarchist. When I was a patriot, I grimaced at the thought of Americans celebrating Cinco de Mayo (5th of May) which is the day that Mexico declared its Independence from Spain. Also, how can Mexicans emigrate to the USA to become American citizens and still honor Cinco de Mayo? But the truth is, it has been capitalized by American merchants seeking another excuse to have a sale to lure customers in to shop.

Which brings me to the point of my question. Jesus said that a man can not serve two masters. He will either hate the one and love the other, or hold to one and despise the other (Matt. 6:24). The context of his statement is either serving God or money, but as a principle it could be any two things in opposition.

I am asking this question because of another thread on the forum which declared that Jesus was an anarchist. The author of that thread did not really invite conversation, which is why, I believe, it never took off. But, as I said in the beginning of this thread, I am now a biblical anarchist, by which I do not mean I believe in rebellion to earthly governments.

Instead, I mean I have one master, my Father in heaven, who is my king and I am a subject of his kingdom. How then, could I be a patriot to an earthly government at the same time I am a patriot to my Father's kingdom? So how do you all reconcile these two things? For I do not believe that such expressions as "for God and country" are biblical. Neither do I believe that God blesses any political organization, let alone America. He blesses those that are in Christ, since it is in Christ only that all blessings flow. What do you think?

Good question. I approached the Lord when I turned 21 on this matter. I asked the same questions, being caught up in patriotism as well. Without reinventing what you said that brought you to where you are at, I am altogether in agreement. Being sold out to the Spirit that pre-cludes going backwards into political or other worldly affairs that are foreign to our purpose in God's calling. I've been bought with a price for a purpose that is way beyond anything that I was involved in before that I thought was important. Only serving Christ is important. That's why I've never voted or been anxious for worldly affairs like politics or wars or catastrophies here or there. My Lord has all that mess in fine control. He sure needs no help from me running the planet lol. Instead, I minister the Word, preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and see beyond this world into the New Heavens and New Earth, that is Eternal.
Peace brother

 

[AlexDTX]

And that may be the main point of disagreement. When Jesus said to 'render unto Caesar' I do not think for a moment that he was saying to adopt a policy of deciding upon the merits of each and every government policy or that we ought to obey only because we might be prosecuted if we do not.

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree. Jesus was not teaching about the kingdom of God nor was he telling us how to live in this fallen world when he said, render unto Caesar. He was avoiding a trap from the Pharisees who thought they could make him an enemy of Caesar's state. It is very bad hermeneutics, in my opinion, to create a doctrine out of a statement meant to allude entrapment.

 

[AlexDTX]

Good question. I approached the Lord when I turned 21 on this matter. I asked the same questions, being caught up in patriotism as well. Without reinventing what you said that brought you to where you are at, I am altogether in agreement. Being sold out to the Spirit that pre-cludes going backwards into political or other worldly affairs that are foreign to our purpose in God's calling. I've been bought with a price for a purpose that is way beyond anything that I was involved in before that I thought was important. Only serving Christ is important. That's why I've never voted or been anxious for worldly affairs like politics or wars or catastrophies here or there. My Lord has all that mess in fine control. He sure needs no help from me running the planet lol. Instead, I minister the Word, preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and see beyond this world into the New Heavens and New Earth, that is Eternal.
Peace brother

I, too, stopped voting. But not because of my current point of view. Earlier I saw that it made no difference who you voted for: the system was rigged with candidates who had superficial differences, but were all aligned on the same policies. And if the rare bird got into office who genuinely intended to change the system, the system always changes the bird. Eisenhower warned us to beware of the military-industrial complex. We also need to beware of the political-corporate CEO revolving door.

At one time I thought political activism was only effective on the local level. But the global machine is entrenched at the local level. Consider all the red-light cameras at almost every intersection. They are there because giant corporations such as Sax Goldman have made a deal with local municipalities to install them at their own expense then split the revenue between the municipalities and their corporation. Do not be concerned that it is unconstitutional on many counts. Just let them pay to get our money back and let the Americans get used to being under constant surveillance.

The only good that I can do as an individual is to follow the leading of the Spirit and share Christ to hearts that are open to the good news. All the kingdoms of the world will either fall apart or be destroyed in the end. I am a patriot for my Fatherland: heaven, not this world.

 

[BabylonWeary]

At first I was unsure what this is about... anarchist? But then thinking about Pharaoh and Moses in Egypt, it makes perfect sense.

 

[AlexDTX]

At first I was unsure what this is about... anarchist? But then thinking about Pharaoh and Moses in Egypt, it makes perfect sense.

Thanks, BabylonWeary. Frankly, however, my use of biblical anarchist leans more against the body of Christ than against the world. While my question regarding patriotism versus serving Christ is focused on the pagan governments, I don't believe in hierarchy in the church. I do believe that we all have different phases of our journey with Christ and God brings brothers and sisters into our lives that are more experienced and mature to help us. This is what I regard as elders. These are brothers who care about us and step in as the Lord leads when there is a need. This is what I believe the Bible means by overseers and episcopals. This is not the same thing as church government as we know it today. Nor do I object to those church governments. They have a place. Many need them and God works through those people in wonderful ways.

This is the point of Hebrews chapter 10. Because God dwells in the hearts of every believer who is born again, He has direct communication with us. If we ignore the Lord or struggle with hearing Him, then he will send brothers to help us. God is not limited like men. We have to create chains of command because we are not everywhere like He is everywhere. Therefore the government of the Kingdom of God is unlike any on Earth. I think some of the men we call the founding fathers of America wanted to establish a political organization that was similar to the Lord's government.

At the root of both US government and kingdom government is the idea of self government. Not as in electing representatives, but rather in every American governing their lives with self control so as not to interfere with others. However, as one of them said in effect, America would only survive if the people remained a moral people. Jesus said, my yoke is easy and my burden is light (Matt. 11:30). The government of God is one of freedom wherein the saints are not controlled because they choose to do what is right. That is self government. While the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, we are told to pray that Thy kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven. That won't happen until Jesus returns. Meanwhile, our greatest service as ambassadors of Christ is to encourage the brethren speaking the truth in love, and sharing the good news that God is reconciled to all men through Jesus Christ.

 

[football5680]

God must be put above everything else but this does not mean it is impossible to also serve your country. If your country was being invaded and you chose to defend it then there would be nothing wrong with this because it would still be in accordance with the will of God. If your country wants you to do something that goes against what God has said then it should be rejected.

 

[AlexDTX]

God must be put above everything else but this does not mean it is impossible to also serve your country. If your country was being invaded and you chose to defend it then there would be nothing wrong with this because it would still be in accordance with the will of God. If your country wants you to do something that goes against what God has said then it should be rejected.

Thank you for your input. From the New Testament point of view, I see no Scriptural support for your argument. Obeying leaders and praying for peace does not endorse combat. There were Centurions who became followers of Christ, of course. Jesus did not tell the Centurion to quit being a soldier. But Jesus was called to the lost sheep of Israel. In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul admonishes everyone to stay as they are. If they were soldiers then remain soldiers (paraphrase since he was talking mostly about marriage). But I think the spirit behind his exhortation is to remain as you are so God can lead you where He wants you. That is, to wait upon the Lord.

But I am glad you say we should reject what a government says that is contrary to what God says. Thanks again.

 

[Resha Caner]

The distinction I am making is that God does not ordain the form of government nor the people chosen, to be in government. If He did, then He chose Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Ghengis Khan to murder their citizens. He did not, of course.

You're using your logic to decide things you don't really know. If a leader does something you don't like, you decide God didn't choose that leader. Yet the Bible makes it clear he did choose the Assyrians and Babylonians, who did some awful things. He did choose Saul, but unfortunately Saul disobeyed him. So, there are many possibilities. Maybe he did choose Stalin, but Stalin disobeyed. Maybe he chose Stalin to mete out punishment. Or maybe he didn't choose Stalin. The truth is, we don't know.

But God does choose people to lead. I would agree with you he doesn't specify any particular form of government, but that doesn't justify throwing government away. You still have not justified anarchy from the Bible.

God did tell Joshua to conquer Canaan, but that was a specific dispensation. He also said that the seed of Abraham would inherit the land of Canaan in perpetuity. Then he kicked them out. Is God fickle? I think not. Romans tells us the reason the Old Testament was given. It was to show sin.

Yes, the law reveals sin, but you're going too far again. God didn't promise perpetuity on the land. He promised perpetuity for the "nation" that came from Abraham. As Hebrews makes clear, he was speaking of a nation of faith, not a political nation. In Genesis 15, God makes clear that the Israelites will not always be in the land of Canaan.

 

[AlexDTX]

You're using your logic to decide things you don't really know. If a leader does something you don't like, you decide God didn't choose that leader. Yet the Bible makes it clear he did choose the Assyrians and Babylonians, who did some awful things. He did choose Saul, but unfortunately Saul disobeyed him. So, there are many possibilities. Maybe he did choose Stalin, but Stalin disobeyed. Maybe he chose Stalin to mete out punishment. Or maybe he didn't choose Stalin. The truth is, we don't know.

But God does choose people to lead. I would agree with you he doesn't specify any particular form of government, but that doesn't justify throwing government away. You still have not justified anarchy from the Bible.

Yes, the law reveals sin, but you're going too far again. God didn't promise perpetuity on the land. He promised perpetuity for the "nation" that came from Abraham. As Hebrews makes clear, he was speaking of a nation of faith, not a political nation. In Genesis 15, God makes clear that the Israelites will not always be in the land of Canaan.

Resha,
I think you misunderstand what I mean by biblical anarchy and the point of my question. I stated in the beginning of the thread that I am not speaking of rebellion, nor am I saying that governments should be removed. I am using anarchy only in the literal sense of without hierarchy. And I only apply that to the body of Christ.

God gave mankind the authority to govern themselves anyway we choose (Gen. 9). As for my logical examples of Hitler, Stalin, etc, neither can you say that God chose them. All we have are Old Testament examples, and that is scanty at best, and all are directly related to Israel.

I am in agreement with you that God does choose people to do things and many do not obey that calling. It was clear that God was going to use Joseph, for example, to save Israel from the famine, but I do not believe that it was his plan for his brothers to sell him as a slave. Perhaps foreseen by God, but not his choice.

However, my question in this post is not about abolishing governments, but about a Christian response to Jesus's warning that you can not serve two masters. Either we serve God or we serve our country, but we can not do both. He said if you are not for him, you are against him, if you are not gathering with him you are scattering (Matt. 12:30).

I suppose an unspoken reason for beginning this thread, of which I will declare now, is that it grieves me to see so many Christians supporting the Republican party and are essentially war hawks, although they would not recognize this about themselves. None of that is Christian.

 

[Resha Caner]

I suppose an unspoken reason for beginning this thread, of which I will declare now, is that it grieves me to see so many Christians supporting the Republican party and are essentially war hawks, although they would not recognize this about themselves. None of that is Christian.

Sure, God is neither Republican nor Democrat. Other than that, you're projecting your opinions onto God again. I see nothing in the Bible saying one must abstain from participating in the life of one's country.

However, my question in this post is not about abolishing governments, but about a Christian response to Jesus's warning that you can not serve two masters. Either we serve God or we serve our country, but we can not do both. He said if you are not for him, you are against him, if you are not gathering with him you are scattering (Matt. 12:30).

Nonsense, as many have pointed out to you. But let's apply your logic to other situations. I assume this means Christians shouldn't work, because doing what your boss says would mean you are serving two masters. Children shouldn't obey their parents because then they're serving two masters. Athletes shouldn't listen to their coaches because then they're serving two masters.

 

[AlexDTX]

Sure, God is neither Republican nor Democrat. Other than that, you're projecting your opinions onto God again. I see nothing in the Bible saying one must abstain from participating in the life of one's country.

Nonsense, as many have pointed out to you. But let's apply your logic to other situations. I assume this means Christians shouldn't work, because doing what your boss says would mean you are serving two masters. Children shouldn't obey their parents because then they're serving two masters. Athletes shouldn't listen to their coaches because then they're serving two masters.

Resha,
Either I am not expressing myself well, or you are missing my heart. First, what makes you think your opinion of God is better than mine? You are projecting your opinion of God onto me, as well. We all have opinions and the purpose of the forum is to share them and discuss them.

As for athletes listening to coaches, etc., we are told to do all things unto the Lord. So I am not in disagreement. But your example is one of personal relationships which is different from the abstract rule of people who have jockeyed themselves into places of power. Nor have I ever said that we should not obey authorities. I declared this to another person in this thread that we do that which is right and we obey to stay under the radar so we can share Christ with others.

Governments are becoming more abstract and distant. Local governments are within our realm of influence. State governments are harder. Federal government is beyond our reach. And we are watching a global government continue to be built before our very eyes. The book of Revelations makes it clear that this is a tyrannical government that will murder Christians in great numbers.

This global government will be ruled by the Anti-Christ, who will be a man possessed by Satan. And if we backtrack, when Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness he offered all the kingdoms of the world to him if would bow down and worship him. Jesus did not deny Satan's authority to do so, which means all governments are under Satan's control. Do we serve God and Satan? I don't think so.

 

[RDKirk]

Thank you for your input. From the New Testament point of view, I see no Scriptural support for your argument. Obeying leaders and praying for peace does not endorse combat. There were Centurions who became followers of Christ, of course. Jesus did not tell the Centurion to quit being a soldier. But Jesus was called to the lost sheep of Israel. In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul admonishes everyone to stay as they are. If they were soldiers then remain soldiers (paraphrase since he was talking mostly about marriage). But I think the spirit behind his exhortation is to remain as you are so God can lead you where He wants you. That is, to wait upon the Lord.

But I am glad you say we should reject what a government says that is contrary to what God says. Thanks again.

Jesus is not telling him to desert Rome, but what Jesus is telling him to do is at odds with being a soldier in the army of Rome. To hearken back to a popular movie, "Unleashing hell" is what Centurions did. Directing and ordering brutality is what Centurions did. Crucifying Jews is what Centurions did. Murdering innocents as an example is what Centurions did. And that is the problem for the Centurion. We don't know how that Centurion responded to that problem...but I suspect he stopped performing the duty of a Centurion.

 

[RDKirk]

Nonsense, as many have pointed out to you. But let's apply your logic to other situations. I assume this means Christians shouldn't work, because doing what your boss says would mean you are serving two masters. Children shouldn't obey their parents because then they're serving two masters. Athletes shouldn't listen to their coaches because then they're serving two masters.

What do you think about Daniel and Mordecai, who were the top officials to two of the most reprehensible tyrants in ancient history?

Or of Joseph, whose plan was a government takeover of all the privately held land in Egypt?

 

[mmksparbud]

(Mat 22:21) They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

 

[RDKirk]

God must be put above everything else but this does not mean it is impossible to also serve your country. If your country was being invaded and you chose to defend it then there would be nothing wrong with this because it would still be in accordance with the will of God. If your country wants you to do something that goes against what God has said then it should be rejected.

When you say "your country," I'm presuming you're talking about the US or wherever you're living. But your profile says you're a Catholic. When the Pope says "my country," what place do you think he's referring to? What place do you think he should be referring to?

 

[BabylonWeary]

Thanks, BabylonWeary. Frankly, however, my use of biblical anarchist leans more against the body of Christ than against the world. While my question regarding patriotism versus serving Christ is focused on the pagan governments, I don't believe in hierarchy in the church. I do believe that we all have different phases of our journey with Christ and God brings brothers and sisters into our lives that are more experienced and mature to help us. This is what I regard as elders. These are brothers who care about us and step in as the Lord leads when there is a need. This is what I believe the Bible means by overseers and episcopals. This is not the same thing as church government as we know it today. Nor do I object to those church governments. They have a place. Many need them and God works through those people in wonderful ways.

This is the point of Hebrews chapter 10. Because God dwells in the hearts of every believer who is born again, He has direct communication with us. If we ignore the Lord or struggle with hearing Him, then he will send brothers to help us. God is not limited like men. We have to create chains of command because we are not everywhere like He is everywhere. Therefore the government of the Kingdom of God is unlike any on Earth. I think some of the men we call the founding fathers of America wanted to establish a political organization that was similar to the Lord's government.

At the root of both US government and kingdom government is the idea of self government. Not as in electing representatives, but rather in every American governing their lives with self control so as not to interfere with others. However, as one of them said in effect, America would only survive if the people remained a moral people. Jesus said, my yoke is easy and my burden is light (Matt. 11:30). The government of God is one of freedom wherein the saints are not controlled because they choose to do what is right. That is self government. While the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, we are told to pray that Thy kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven. That won't happen until Jesus returns. Meanwhile, our greatest service as ambassadors of Christ is to encourage the brethren speaking the truth in love, and sharing the good news that God is reconciled to all men through Jesus Christ.

While there is truth in the apostle Paul's writings, they're also misleading people about certain things. So much commentary to present a doctrine, yet if the fulfillment of the laws of God means that those laws are abolished, but still there is light, there is the firmament, there is the gravity or the gathering together of the waters under the firmament, there is life on the earth, human beings still go forth to be fruitful and multiply... when all those things are done away with, then I will be confident in Paul's writings. The way of inspiring people to flaunt how much they can get away with throwing away laws of God instead of teaching people how to work within the laws, so I question that apostle's motives and intentions. that I should read the book of Malachi and trust that is a warning.

Prophecies are true in timeless ways, they come into their season, they go out of season, then come back around again, like you know a fig tree does what a fig tree does throughout the year. Want to curse the fig tree, or maybe want to have all sins forgiven and forgotten, then why not also forgive the apostle Paul and forget his writings ever existed, or is his meandering discourse somehow greater than Moses? All the craters on the moon is proof enough for me the kinds of destruction that happens when stuff turns away from the rightful orbits God has appointed for them. It makes my skin crawl when I, myself, seek the advise and wisdom in the scriptures on how to stay away from troubles, yet so many others quote verses from the New Testament like it's proof that the Bible is become null and void because of Jesus.

So, yeah, this thing about anarchy is refreshing. If Moses is sent by God to lead the people out of the captivity in Egypt, what greater form of captivity is Messiah sent to lead the people away from? What really jumps out for me, lights it up, so to speak, that is from the point of view of Pharaoh and how he believes the world to be, Moses appears as a god with the power to cause all manner of plagues and terrors, and I wonder about that in the way some people think of the Old Testament as if it was a monster trying to devour them, like a wrathful god seeking to punish them for their sins. Maybe that's overly dramatic, though.

 

[football5680]

When you say "your country," I'm presuming you're talking about the US or wherever you're living. But your profile says you're a Catholic. When the Pope says "my country," what place do you think he's referring to? What place do you think he should be referring to?

I wasn't referring to a single country, it was a general statement. If the current Pope said my country I would need to know what the context was but I would assume he was speaking about Argentina which is where he is from. There are over a Billion Catholics all around the world so picking a single country that the Pope should refer to wouldn't be right.

 

[RDKirk]

Christ is not an anarchist, Christ is a monarchist...and He's the king.

If a person is a Christian, he is a citizen of Heaven and only a "temporary resident," an "alien and sojourner" temporarily deployed to a nation in this world to perform a mission of limited duration. Then he's going home.

"No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather works to please his commander." 2 Timothy 2:4.

When I was active duty stationed abroad, the Status of Forces Agreement required three things of me while in the host country:

1. Obey their laws
2. Honor their officials
3. If I lived offbase in the 'ville, pay their taxes.

Interestingly, that's exactly what Romans 13 says. But having those three requirements did not confuse us troops into thinking we were citizens of those countries. We recognized we were still obeying the command of our own commander, and that obeying the local laws, honoring the local officials, and paying the local taxes did not make us their citizens. We were only temporarily deployed to perform a mission of limited duration--then we were going home.

 

[AlexDTX]

Jesus is not telling him to desert Rome, but what Jesus is telling him to do is at odds with being a soldier in the army of Rome. To hearken back to a popular movie, "Unleashing hell" is what Centurions did. Directing and ordering brutality is what Centurions did. Crucifying Jews is what Centurions did. Murdering innocents as an example is what Centurions did. And that is the problem for the Centurion. We don't know how that Centurion responded to that problem...but I suspect he stopped performing the duty of a Centurion.

Thank you for your input, RD. I found it a refreshing bit of support. I agree with all your comments that followed, too. The same question could also be asked of Philemon and Onesimus. While Philemon was the slave owner and Onesimus was the slave they became brothers in Christ. If they both pressed into discipleship, Philemon may have released Onesismus. But only God knows what they did. It is possible that the Centurion also left military life.

 

[Hetta]

Today is July 4th, which is the day the United States declared its independence from Great Britain. In my own journey of life I had gone from a rebellious pagan against my country, to a believer in Christ who was encouraged by other Christians to be a patriot for my country, to a biblical anarchist. When I was a patriot, I grimaced at the thought of Americans celebrating Cinco de Mayo (5th of May) which is the day that Mexico declared its Independence from Spain. Also, how can Mexicans emigrate to the USA to become American citizens and still honor Cinco de Mayo? But the truth is, it has been capitalized by American merchants seeking another excuse to have a sale to lure customers in to shop.

Which brings me to the point of my question. Jesus said that a man can not serve two masters. He will either hate the one and love the other, or hold to one and despise the other (Matt. 6:24). The context of his statement is either serving God or money, but as a principle it could be any two things in opposition.

I am asking this question because of another thread on the forum which declared that Jesus was an anarchist. The author of that thread did not really invite conversation, which is why, I believe, it never took off. But, as I said in the beginning of this thread, I am now a biblical anarchist, by which I do not mean I believe in rebellion to earthly governments.

Instead, I mean I have one master, my Father in heaven, who is my king and I am a subject of his kingdom. How then, could I be a patriot to an earthly government at the same time I am a patriot to my Father's kingdom? So how do you all reconcile these two things? For I do not believe that such expressions as "for God and country" are biblical. Neither do I believe that God blesses any political organization, let alone America. He blesses those that are in Christ, since it is in Christ only that all blessings flow. What do you think?

Romans 13:1-7.