Can Christianity survive without the Pope?

Instead of trying to find ways to change 2000 years of good teaching from God youn should be seeing how wonderful our God is.

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Truth is truth, even if it demands changes to things that are 2000 years old. I know perfectly well how wonderful G_d is, esp. through Yeshua and his death and resurrection. I have no problems there. However, you make my point for me...the church (generic term), over the past few millennia has taken that of G_d and made it into that of man, in many cases, and in the process shunned or killed off a large part of the tree into which they were grafted (Romans 11:17) and to whom the word was first given.

JacktheCatholic said:

I have my opinion and you have yours. The difference is that I have proivided support to my opinion which should give me more credibility and you less. I do not think this should be about who yells the loudest but rather who brings more to the table. I am ahead, what say you?

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You have brung nothing to the table other than overt deception. me and you both know that that statement has nothing to do with what we know as the catholic church, you are not mistaking but trying to deceive.

onwingsaseagles said:

You have brung nothing to the table other than overt deception. me and you both know that that statement has nothing to do with what we know as the catholic church, you are not mistaking but trying to deceive.

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Did you miss the pages with ECF quotes?

Maybe you should go back and read those. I believe there is quite a bit I have added to our table and you would do well to fill up on some of it.

Peace and God Bless

I voted yes, Christ's work goes on reguardless of any individual human/office/church...We are but clay in His hand..

LittleLambofJesus said:

So this poll is quite simple "CAN CHRISTIANITY SURVIVE TODAY WITHOUT THE POPE/PAPACY OF ROME"

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Check the scoreboard ... Church with Pope ... 2,000 years of constant and unchanging truth ... Modern Christian tradition which rejects the Pope ... 450 years of constant division, confusion, and fragmentation, resulting in more than 20,000 contradicting manmade sects, and doctrinal chaos. You cannot have truth without unity, and you cannot have unity without genuine authority.

Our unity is in Christ and and God is Truth...popes need not apply.

mont974x4 said:

Our unity is in Christ and and God is Truth...popes need not apply.

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This "Unity" you are describing is how the Catholic Church recognizes you as Catholic. Cool huh?

It is in this mystical way that those not subscribing to Catholicism are still part of the Body of Christ through a valid baptism and thus are Catholic.

JacktheCatholic said:

This "Unity" you are describing is how the Catholic Church recognizes you as Catholic. Cool huh?

It is in this mystical way that those not subscribing to Catholicism are still part of the Body of Christ through a valid baptism and thus are Catholic.

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But I don't wanna be Catholic..... sorry: "Stomps foot in protest")


Just curious...if the Pope is to be in the line of the Apostles, and the Apostles worked signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit....why does the Pope not do this as well? Has any recent Pope raised someone from the dead? Healed blind eyes, deaf ears, or a mute mouth? If someone were following the call, mantle, and anointing of the Apostles, it would seem to be they would continue the wonders as well.

The Princess Bride said:

But I don't wanna be Catholic..... sorry: "Stomps foot in protest")

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Sorry, it is just our teaching. It is good though, it is a desire to include all Christians as One. I think that would be the ultimate in worship is if all Christians came together as one. Kind of how Paul wrote in one of his letters but more so.

The Princess Bride said:

Just curious...if the Pope is to be in the line of the Apostles, and the Apostles worked signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit....why does the Pope not do this as well? Has any recent Pope raised someone from the dead? Healed blind eyes, deaf ears, or a mute mouth? If someone were following the call, mantle, and anointing of the Apostles, it would seem to be they would continue the wonders as well.

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Great question. I am not sure I am qualified to answer it. I know that sounds like I am trying to weasel out of answering but I truly cannot say with full knowledge.

I mean... for instance. Ummm...

What can I say?

Have you heard of Padre Pio? Well it does not matter really. He was a priest who died around 1969 or there abouts. He was a priest known for things of this nature. One thing he is known for is healing a girl that was born without pupils and she was able to see. Doctors could not explain it because it did not follow man's understanding of things biologically or scientifically. Well this priest performed many miracles. Of course you know that the miracle is not from the man but from God working through the man.

Anyhow, where was I going with this???

Oh yeah! I was trying to start out by saying that many people are performing miracles in the Catholic Church. I have witnessed some and know people that have too. Awesome stuff having the Holy Spirit work through you. Better than any drug with no ill side effects... LOL

But the thing is... in the Catholic Church everything is held under a microscope of scrutiny. I know, I know... hard to believe huh? But it is the truth. If the Church was any slower in things it would be standing still. LOL

Sorry. I babble sometimes.

Now what does this have to do with a Pope working miraclous signs for the masses? Good question...

Have you ever wondered why a mother of six children will ask why God does not show her a sign, a miracle? When you really think deeply about that it is kind of strange huh? I mean the birth of a child is a miracle. Isn't it? A little bambino from mother and father right? BUT what about that spirit. From conception that little bambino is given an eternal soul! ETERNAL SOUL. Now that is a miracle!!!

But yet the mother does not see. She has been so blessed. She has been working with God so close to her side and did not know he was there. So why doesn't this mother know that God is there and working such wonderful miracles?

Well... I am babbling again. I think my answer is in here somewhere. Let me know if you find it?

Peace and God Bless you my sister in Christ.

JacktheCatholic said:

I know we can argue that Ignatius was using a lower case 'c' but that still does not negate that the early church came to be called Catholic.

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This was a greek word from "katholou and was also used in greek
literature, as we can see in an excerpt from an article written
in reference to something said by Aristotle:

It was a word that they used for universal, coming fro katholous, which
had the meaning of generalities, and so was applied to
the "universal" church, which IIRC was originally called "the Way".

Note:
“The word Catholic (katholikos from katholou -- throughout the whole, i.e., universal) occurs in the Greek classics, e.g., in Aristotle and Polybius, and was freely used by the earlier Christian writers in what we may call its primitive and non-ecclesiastical sense. Thus we meet such phrases as the”the catholic resurrection” (Justin Martyr), "the catholic goodness of God" (Tertullian), "the four catholic winds" (Irenaeus), where we should now speak of "the general resurrection", "the absolute or universal goodness of God", "the four principal winds", etc. The word seems in this usage to be opposed to merikos (partial) or idios (particular), and one familiar example of this conception still survives in the ancient phrase "Catholic Epistles" as applied to those of St. Peter, St. Jude, etc., which were so called as being addressed not to particular local communities, but to the Church at large.” - New Advent

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[/quote]
Cool. Yes, this word has evolved from the first meaning of the very early
church fathers as seen above, and continued to become used in a more
specific manner over time, and ended up as we see it now..

katholikos said:

And it still doesn't, because the Catholic Church is not a denomination. We are the Church founded by Christ, from which your "denominations" broke away

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LOL
I can just see you as a little guy, WE are the church, YOU guys
are NOT!
There's one church friend. IT was called "the way' it was called
"universal", and other things as well, but it's only ONE and all
of us who are a part of it are welcomed with outstretched arms.

sunlover1 said:

I can just see you as a little guy, WE are the church, YOU guys are NOT!

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LOL

I voted 'no'. Pope Shenouda III, Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria is the 117th in line from St. Mark, and since the first use we have of the word Pope was applied to the patriarch of Alexandria, it seemed in order to vote that way. Of course, the Pope in Alexandria is not infallible, nor has he claimed to be. He is what St. Peter describes himself as being, 'an elder' among 'elders'. He claims no jurisdiction outside his own diocese (as defined in canon 6 of Nicaea), and, like all the ancient patriarchs, seeks the advice of his fellow bishops where matters appertaining to salvation are at issue.

For us in the Coptic Church, this is how the office of Pope has always worked; and I occasionally wonder whether, if this was how the other See using the title 'Pope' still worked, we would have quite the problems with the office we see in this thread and elsewhere?

peace,

Anglian

Good man.

we only have one Papa.. Abba Father.. we now can come to His throne boldly. We need to man to stand in the Gap.. We can now read the scriptures and understand them for we are the Spiritual church here on earth in fleshly bodies preaching the word in season and out of season.. We are the preisthood of Christ.. His Chosen ones His people..

MamaZ said:

....We can now read the scriptures and understand them for we are the Spiritual church....

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I guess thats why none of you can agree on doctrine and why you are all divided up into hundreds of denominations, right? Because you can now read the scriptures and understand them, right? <<snort>>

If you cannot see the evidence all around you of how wrong your statement is, then one must assume you just don't want to see it.

I see more Roman Catholics reading the daily astrology news more than I've ever seen one reading the Bible.
The evidence screams against the lies.

katholikos said:

I guess that why none of you can agree on doctrine and why you are all divided up into hundreds of denominations, right? Because you can now read the scriptures and understand them, right? <<snort>>

If you cannot see the evidence all around you of how wrong your statement is, then one must assume you just don't want to see it.

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Yeah. We just decided to follow the lead of our Orthodox brethren.
But the question is, can Christianity survive without the pope and his heirarchy today? Of course it can!!

Luke 16:19 A certain Man was rich and clothed/enedidu-sketo <1737> (5710) purple and fine-linen making-merry down to a-day, shiningly

Rick Otto said:

I more Roman Catholics reading the daily astrology news more than I've ever seen one reading the Bible.......

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Really. I suppose you have a webcam in over one billion Catholic homes across the globe to verify that statement?

katholikos said:

I guess that why none of you can agree on doctrine and why you are all divided up into hundreds of denominations, right? Because you can now read the scriptures and understand them, right? <<snort>>

If you cannot see the evidence all around you of how wrong your statement is, then one must assume you just don't want to see it.

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You don't want to see the lack of unity in your own ranks so you cover it with an official story of conformity that doesn't realy exist.
We believe in Freedom of Religion so we don't have to lie to cover it up where it occurs.

Anglian said:

I voted 'no'. Pope Shenouda III, Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria is the 117th in line from St. Mark, and since the first use we have of the word Pope was applied to the patriarch of Alexandria, it seemed in order to vote that way. Of course, the Pope in Alexandria is not infallible, nor has he claimed to be. He is what St. Peter describes himself as being, 'an elder' among 'elders'. He claims no jurisdiction outside his own diocese (as defined in canon 6 of Nicaea), and, like all the ancient patriarchs, seeks the advice of his fellow bishops where matters appertaining to salvation are at issue.

For us in the Coptic Church, this is how the office of Pope has always worked; and I occasionally wonder whether, if this was how the other See using the title 'Pope' still worked, we would have quite the problems with the office we see in this thread and elsewhere?

peace,

Anglian

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Anglian,

You are so very knowledgable about Christianity. Is this because of education at a university or self study or both?

Jack