Can Calvinism be proven?

[BNR32FAN]

According to the bible, what then becomes of them?

I’m sorry I didn’t realize this was a Calvinist only forum. So I can’t comment on this thread.

 

[HTacianas]

I’m sorry I didn’t realize this was a Calvinist only forum. So I can’t comment on this thread.

I think the rules say non calvinists can post here also.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think the rules say non calvinists can post here also.

Ok I wasn’t sure.

 

[Dave L]

Sorry didn’t realize I can’t post here.

Why not?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I’m sorry I didn’t realize this was a Calvinist only forum. So I can’t comment on this thread.

Those who turn to unbelief will be broken off from the olive tree (God’s Covenant). Romans 11:17-23

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why not?

I thought this was a Calvinist only forum. I didn’t want to intrude.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Show me in the scripture where it says that.

But the scriptures also tell us who God will welcome to Him in Acts 10:34-35.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Al Touthentop]

"That's commentary, not scripture. He actually writes that the animal sacrifices did provide cleansing in at least two places in Hebrews."- You are blind by the fact that you too are using your own commentary to try and understand the book of Hebrews - and the rest of the Bible - but you are coming to erroneous conclusions about it because either:
A.) You are relying on your own private interpretation of Scripture.
B.) You are relying on the interpretation of others in error.

"Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets

It is intended that we are able to understand.

"Councils of men have never decided canon. The church did that by around 140 AD."- What a silly comment. Councils of men in the unity of the Holy Spirit (Which constitutes the Church) is exactly who decided what the Canon of Scripture would be.
Also, please provide your evidence that "the church did that by around 140" please and thank you.

Read some history. The church councils have no authority to determine what is already written and delivered anyway. 200 years before the Council of Rome the 27 books of the New Testament were in common use among the churches. Read Shelley's "A History of the Church in Plain Language."

By as early as 120 - 140 there were already known lists of the 27 books now accepted as canon without a single church council convened.

"It isn't about pride."- This is exactly what it is. But only one the humble could see it. You reject the authority of the clergy because you would rather just consult yourself on spiritual matters. At best you go cherry picking interpretations of Scripture from among others who reject the New Covenant Priesthood just like you do. This is certainly pride in full swing. This is the forewarned "rebellion of Korah" that St.Jude(1:11) warns you against.

This is just an accusation. Ad hominem and has nothing to do with whether or not God plainly said in the Old Testament that the law provided sin remission or that Paul overturns God's words in Hebrews.

"Paul tells us we can read and understand the scriptures. He was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write that it was so."- While this same Holy Spirit through St.Peter in 2nd Peter(3:15-16) states that St. Paul's writings can be confusing, and that untaught and unstable people twist and contort the Sacred Scripture to their own destruction.

In other words, to misunderstand you have to intentionally twist the meaning or be taught by somebody who has twisted its meaning.

 

[Dave L]

"Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets

It is intended that we are able to understand.



Read some history. The church councils have no authority to determine what is already written and delivered anyway. 200 years before the Council of Rome the 27 books of the New Testament were in common use among the churches. Read Shelley's "A History of the Church in Plain Language."

By as early as 120 - 140 there were already known lists of the 27 books now accepted as canon without a single church council convened.



This is just an accusation. Ad hominem and has nothing to do with whether or not God plainly said in the Old Testament that the law provided sin remission or that Paul overturns God's words in Hebrews.



In other words, to misunderstand you have to intentionally twist the meaning or be taught by somebody who has twisted its meaning.

So all books do this so we junk the creeds?

 

[Al Touthentop]

But the scriptures also tell us who God will welcome to Him in Acts 10:34-35.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

But it doesn't say that one is saved first. It says that man's works are what cause him to be accepted. Not just any works. The works which God has prepared before hand for us to walk in.

 

[Al Touthentop]

So all books do this so we junk the creeds?

Creeds are from men who presume to have authority. Only Christ and the apostles have authority over what the doctrine is of the church. They delivered that through inspiration of the Holy Spirit and wrote it down.

 

[Dave L]

Creeds are from men who presume to have authority. Only Christ and the apostles have authority over what the doctrine is of the church. They delivered that through inspiration of the Holy Spirit and wrote it down.

Creeds record what the early church believed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But it doesn't say that one is saved first. It says that man's works are what cause him to be accepted. Not just any works. The works which God has prepared before hand for us to walk in.

Yes he must do good works.

 

[Deus Vult!]

"Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets

It is intended that we are able to understand.



Read some history. The church councils have no authority to determine what is already written and delivered anyway. 200 years before the Council of Rome the 27 books of the New Testament were in common use among the churches. Read Shelley's "A History of the Church in Plain Language."

By as early as 120 - 140 there were already known lists of the 27 books now accepted as canon without a single church council convened.



This is just an accusation. Ad hominem and has nothing to do with whether or not God plainly said in the Old Testament that the law provided sin remission or that Paul overturns God's words in Hebrews.



In other words, to misunderstand you have to intentionally twist the meaning or be taught by somebody who has twisted its meaning.

"Read some history."- I have. Reading into Church history shows quite plainly that the early Church was Catholic. It is a matter of historical fact, this one is not up for your interpretation.


"The church councils have no authority to determine what is already written and delivered anyway."- You have no idea what you are talking about at this point. The first council that was convened is evidenced in Acts 15. Called by the Apostles against the heretical "Circumcisers". (those early Jews that had converted to Christianity and yet were teaching a potential error that Gentiles needed to be circumcised in accordance with the Mosaic Law.) That first council at Jerusalem then would be a council convened by the Church - for the Church - and guided by the Holy Spirit. It can be said accurately then that this was a council of men that delivered a dogma that was binding on all of Christianity. In fact the Greek word "Dogma" is found in this very passage after they decided on the matter: δόγματα

"200 years before the Council of Rome the 27 books of the New Testament were in common use among the churches. Read Shelley's "A History of the Church in Plain Language.""- I am asking you to here right now quote and paste your evidence from this book or any book that shows that the Canon of Scripture had been decided on before 140 AD -which was your claim. Prove it.

"By as early as 120 - 140 there were already known lists of the 27 books now accepted as canon without a single church council convened."- Prove it with a reference. Thank you.

 

[Al Touthentop]

"Read some history."- I have. Reading into Church history shows quite plainly that the early Church was Catholic. It is a matter of historical fact, this one is not up for your interpretation.

We weren't even discussing that. If you mean the church was a church with a pope and celibate priests, then you're way off.

"The church councils have no authority to determine what is already written and delivered anyway."- You have no idea what you are talking about at this point. The first council that was convened is evidenced in Acts 15.

And that council was guided by the apostles and the Holy Spirit. In other words, authorized by God and directed by him to decree the letter written by the bishop of the Jerusalem church, James, not Peter.

"200 years before the Council of Rome the 27 books of the New Testament were in common use among the churches. Read Shelley's "A History of the Church in Plain Language.""- I am asking you to here right now quote and paste your evidence from this book or any book that shows that the Canon of Scripture had been decided on before 140 AD -which was your claim. Prove it.

I have already given you the reference. Here's the other proof which you will have to read for yourself. By the time Justin Martyr wrote his letters, the church fathers, including Polycarp, had quoted all but two scriptures of the entire New Testament in their own writings, including Mark 16:9-20 which some "scholars" have said was added in the second or third century.

"By as early as 120 - 140 there were already known lists of the 27 books now accepted as canon without a single church council convened."- Prove it with a reference. Thank you.

We have the Muratorian fragment which lists virtually all of the books that were accepted and puts others out of favor. Some date it between 155 and 200. This is over 100 years prior to the council of Nicea which didn't even discuss canon. In fact, as I said, the 27 books of the New Testament were printed for that council without any discussion. It was already accepted that those 27 books were authentic. There wasn't even any controversy at that time.

Speaking of Pride. We weren't even questioning Catholicism but you've brought it up because you think this is an opportunity to assert faith in a human institution's decisions about doctrine and canon. Clearly you think men have more authority over doctrine and canon than the church without their guidance. If the councils were correct and canon could only be decided by their members, you've relegated a few centuries of Christians to be in error until the church councils could set them straight.

 

[Deus Vult!]

We weren't even discussing that. If you mean the church was a church with a pope and celibate priests, then you're way off.



And that council was guided by the apostles and the Holy Spirit. In other words, authorized by God and directed by him to decree the letter written by the bishop of the Jerusalem church, James, not Peter.


I have already given you the reference. Here's the other proof which you will have to read for yourself. By the time Justin Martyr wrote his letters, the church fathers, including Polycarp, had quoted all but two scriptures of the entire New Testament in their own writings, including Mark 16:9-20 which some "scholars" have said was added in the second or third century.



We have the Muratorian fragment which lists virtually all of the books that were accepted and puts others out of favor. Some date it between 155 and 200. This is over 100 years prior to the council of Nicea which didn't even discuss canon. In fact, as I said, the 27 books of the New Testament were printed for that council without any discussion. It was already accepted that those 27 books were authentic. There wasn't even any controversy at that time.

Speaking of Pride. We weren't even questioning Catholicism but you've brought it up because you think this is an opportunity to assert faith in a human institution's decisions about doctrine and canon. Clearly you think men have more authority over doctrine and canon than the church without their guidance. If the councils were correct and canon could only be decided by their members, you've relegated a few centuries of Christians to be in error until the church councils could set them straight.

In all honesty to pick apart this last response from you bit by bit - addressing every lie, historical inaccuracy, error, and heresy - would take more time than I care to give it...
You called Justin Martyr and St. Polycarp "Church Fathers", I actually must wonder if you have ever even read their writings. These two are indisputably Catholic, as are the rest of the Church Fathers. You should read every letter that the Church Fathers wrote, that way you will be cut right to your heart out of love for them, and in turn the Catholic Church that they too loved and served.
You are not a wast of time.
But you are now wasting my time.

I will leave you with a few quotes from Justin Martyr and St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to St.Polycarp:

- "We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing that is for the remission of sins and for regeneration and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food that has been made into the Eucharist by the eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus." – First Apology, 66

- "Concerning chastity, [Jesus] uttered such sentiments as these: “Whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her, has committed adultery with her already in his heart before God.” And, “If your right eye offend you, cut it out; for it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of heaven with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into everlasting fire.” And, “Whosoever shall marry her that is divorced from another husband commits adultery.” And, “There are some who have been made eunuchs of men, and some who were born eunuchs, and some who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake; but all cannot receive this saying” [Mt 19:12]. So that all who, by human law, are twice married, and those who look upon a woman to lust after her, are in the eye of our master sinners. For not only he who in act commits adultery is rejected by him, but also he who desires to commit adultery: since not only our works, but also our thoughts, are open before God. – First Apology 15 (151 A.D.)

- "But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead." – First Apology 67 (151 A.D.)

----------------
IGNATIUS' Letter to Polycarp

CHAPTER 0
0:0 Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto Polycarp
who is bishop of the church of the Smyrnaeans or
rather who hath for his bishop God the Father and
Jesus Christ, abundant greeting.

CHAPTER 1
1:1 Welcoming thy godly mind which is grounded as it
were on an immovable rock, I give exceeding glory that
it hath been vouchsafed me to see thy blameless face,
whereof I would fain have joy in God.
1:2 I exhort thee in the grace wherewith thou art
clothed to press forward in thy course and to exhort
all men that they may be saved. Vindicate thine office
in all diligence of flesh and of spirit. Have a care
for union, than which there is nothing better. Bear
all men, as the Lord also beareth thee. Suffer all men
in love, as also thou doest.
1:3 Give thyself to unceasing prayers. Ask for
larger wisdom than thou hast. Be watchful, and keep
thy spirit from slumbering. Speak to each man
severally after the manner of God. Bear the maladies
of all, as a perfect athlete. Where there is more
toil, there is much gain.

CHAPTER 2
2:1 If thou lovest good scholars, this is not
thankworthy in thee. Rather bring the more pestilent
to submission by gentleness. All wounds are not healed
by the same salve. Allay sharp pains by fomentations.
2:2 _Be thou prudent as the serpent_ in all things
_and guileless_ always _as the dove._ Therefore art
thou made of flesh and spirit, that thou mayest humour
the things which appear before thine eyes; and as for
the invisible things, pray thou that they may be
revealed unto thee; that thou mayest be lacking in
nothing, but mayest abound in every spiritual gift.
2:3 The season requireth thee, as pilots require
winds or as a storm-tossed mariner a haven, that it
may attain unto God. Be sober, as God's athlete. The
prize is incorruption and life eternal, concerning
which thou also art persuaded. In all things I am
devoted to thee -- I and my bonds which thou didst
cherish.

CHAPTER 3
3:1 Let not those that seem to be plausible and yet
teach strange doctrine dismay thee. Stand thou firm,
as an anvil when it is smitten. It is the part of a
great athlete to receive blows and be victorious. But
especially must we for God's sake endure all things,
that He also may endure us.
3:2 Be thou more diligent than thou art. Mark the
seasons. Await Him that is above every season, the
Eternal, the Invisible, who became visible for our
sake, the Impalpable, the Impassible, who suffered for
our sake, who endured in all ways for our sake.

CHAPTER 4
4:1 Let not widows be neglected. After the Lord be
thou their protector. Let nothing be done without thy
consent; neither do thou anything without the consent
of God, as indeed thou doest not. Be stedfast.
4:2 Let meetings be held more frequently. Seek out
all men by name.
4:3 Despise not slaves, whether men or women. Yet
let not these again be puffed up, but let them serve
the more faithfully to the glory of God, that they may
obtain a better freedom from God. Let them not desire
to be set free at the public cost, lest they be found
slaves of lust.

CHAPTER 5
5:1 Flee evil arts, or rather hold thou discourse
about these. Tell my sisters to love the Lord and to
be content with their husbands in flesh and in spirit.
In like manner also charge my brothers in the name of
Jesus Christ to love their wives, _as the Lord loved
the Church._
5:2 If any one is able to abide in chastity to the
honour of the flesh of the Lord, let him so abide
without boasting. If he boast, he is lost; and if it be
known beyond the bishop, he is polluted. It becometh
men and women too, when they marry, to unite themselves
with the consent of the bishop, that the marriage may
be after the Lord and not after concupiscence. Let all
things be done to the honour of God.

CHAPTER 6
6:1 Give ye heed to the bishop, that God also may
give heed to you. I am devoted to those who are
subject to the bishop, the presbyters, the deacons.
May it be granted me to have my portion with them in
the presence of God. Toil together one with another,
struggle together, run together, suffer together, lie
down together, rise up together, as God's stewards and
assessors and ministers.
6:2 Please the Captain in whose army ye serve, from
whom also ye will receive your pay. Let none of you be
found a deserter. Let your baptism abide with you as
you shield; your faith as your helmet; your love as
your spear; your patience as your body armour. Let
your works be your deposits, that ye may receive your
assets due to you. Be ye therefore long-suffering one
with another in gentleness, as God is with you. May I
have joy of you always.

CHAPTER 7
7:1 Seeing that the church which is in Antioch of
Syria hath peace, as it hath been reported to me,
through your prayers, I myself also have been the more
comforted since God hath banished my care; if so be I
may through suffering attain unto God, that I may be
found a disciple through your intercession.
7:2 It becometh thee, most blessed Polycarp, to call
together a godly council and to elect some one among
you who is very dear to you and zealous also, who
shall be fit to bear the name of God's courier -- to
appoint him, I say, that he may go to Syria and
glorify your zealous love unto the glory of God.
7:3 A Christian hath no authority over himself, but
giveth his time to God. This is God's work, and yours
also, when ye shall complete it: for I trust in the
Divine grace, that ye are ready for an act of well-
doing which is meet for God. Knowing the fervour of
your sincerity, I have exhorted you in a short letter.

CHAPTER 8
8:1 Since I have not been able to write to all the
churches, by reason of my sailing suddenly from Troas
to Neapolis, as the Divine will enjoineth, thou shalt
write to the churches in front, as one possessing the
mind of God, to the intent that they also may do this
same thing -- let those who are able send messengers,
and the rest letters by the persons who are sent by
thee, that ye may be glorified by an ever memorable
deed -- for this is worthy of thee.
8:2 I salute all by name, and especially the wife of
Epitropus with her whole household and her children's.
I salute Attalus my beloved. I salute him that shall
be appointed to go to Syria. Grace shall be with him
always, and with Polycarp who sendeth him.
8:3 I bid you farewell always in our God Jesus
Christ, in whom abide ye in the unity and supervision
of God. I salute Alce, a name very dear to me. Fare ye
well in the Lord.


Peace of Jesus Christ be with you friend.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Ok I wasn’t sure.

Since this is debate the calvinist forum anyone can post, but when there are multiple non-calvinists debating the other non-Calvinists it confuses the issues as to what Calvinists believe.

My husband and I are calvinist, however I'm a new enough Christian that I'm sometimes worried about misrepresenting the belief because of my own misunderstanding on a topic matter. So I rather see my answers as a toss up, and will often either skip posting here or ask my husband to confirm before posting.

This time I just posted because of the dearth of people answering in an informed manner.. but you can always post here.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Since this is debate the calvinist forum anyone can post, but when there are multiple non-calvinists debating the other non-Calvinists it confuses the issues as to what Calvinists believe.

My husband and I are calvinist, however I'm a new enough Christian that I'm sometimes worried about misrepresenting the belief because of my own misunderstanding on a topic matter. So I rather see my answers as a toss up, and will often either skip posting here or ask my husband to confirm before posting.

This time I just posted because of the dearth of people answering in an informed manner.. but you can always post here.

Thank you sister for you kind words and may God bless us both with understanding of His word.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Thank you sister for you kind words and may God bless us both with understanding of His word.

Amen..

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I’m sorry I didn’t realize this was a Calvinist only forum. So I can’t comment on this thread.

You can posts here, but there are rules as to *what* you may post here.