Can anyone read Hebrew?

[Andre]

Can anyone translate this text in your own words?

ואת־זכר לא תשׁכב משׁכבי אשׁה תועבה הוא׃

Shalom,

Andre.

 

[simchat_torah]

That hebrew font is kinda hard to read, but... I am terrible at this, but here's my rendition:

you must not lie intimately with man like woman. it is hated sin.

mmm.... better ask Rabbi Cohen, he'd be better at it than me.

 

[Rabbi Cohen]

BS"D

Can anyone translate this text in your own words?

ואת־זכר לא תשׁכב משׁכבי אשׁה תועבה הוא׃

Shalom,

Andre.

First off, I would like to know how you wrote in Hebrew. I have been trying to figure that one out for awhile now.

Yes, Simchat, you got it very very close. Of course this is Vay. (Lev.) 18:22. and since Andre asked for it to be translated into your own words, I would say that you have done that nicely.

I would have injected one or two words more however.

The sentence literally reads:

and (followed by the Hebrew object marker - meaning THIS VERY THING next mentioned) with a male not you shall lie down for sexual intercourse as a woman an abomination which is.

The important words being mishkavi - Sexual intercourse, the point of the sentence and v'et-z'char - and (to this specifically) mankind, male, etc. The interesting thing in this passage is that the hebrew word et, which is as I said before the Hebrew object marker, can also represent "ot" which in Hebrew is translated as SIGN. Thus it is the opinion of some of our sages that this transgression of Torah will be a sign for us to measure the sinful environment we live in. Unfortunate but true, when we look at Sodom and Gemora, Ancient Greece, "open" liberal gay-rights today, etc.

I don't wish to hi-jack this thread, as I have heard it termed, so I will stop here.

My own words for the translation, much the same as my friend Simchat's:

"It's an abomination for a man to lie carnally with another man as he would do so with a woman."

Kol Tuv,
Rabbi Cohen

 

[simchat_torah]

simchat_torah = newbie @ hebrew.




Oh, and thanks for the help Rabbi. You are a great addition to these forums.

 

[simchat_torah]

Hebrew sentance structure sometimes varies greatly from the English.

However, sometimes that provides great insight too...
For example, a literal translation of the first words of the Torah:
Bereshit Bara Elohim
In a begining was created G-d....



hmmmmm.

 

[Andre]

Thanks a lot, that clears it up for me.
The reason I asked is because I posted 1 Cortintians 6:9 at a different thread and someone said that the word for homosexual in that passage was wrongfully translated, so I posted Leviticus 18:22 from the NASB translation to clear things up (22 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.), but this is the response I got from that same user

And BTW, the literal translation reads “You must not sleep the sleep of a woman with a man; it is ritually impure.”It was referring to pagan fertility rituals.

So I decided to ask someone who reads Hebrew to translate it for me.

Btw, I quoted that text from Hebrew old testament from the e-Sword Bible software, I wish I could wright in Hebrew like that..

This is the thread if anyone wants to read it http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=75564

Shalom,
Andre.

 

[koilias]

In a begining was created G-d....



hmmmmm.

Well...you're translating it VERY liberally, Simchat!

Another way to think of it is:
"With the Beginning God created, etc." (John 1.1: the Word was WITH God).

Or...literally in ancient literary Hebrew:

"In the beginning OF God's creating of the heavens and the earth, and (while) the earth was unformed, etc,...
God Said: "Let there be light!", etc.

The verb aspects of ancient Hebrew literature indicate that this first sentence of the Bible is a narrative setup. The first sentence basically paints the setting. The first literal action of the Bible is HaShem speaking the light into being, not the creation of the earth or heavens...that's all part of the background (God's creating of the heavens and the earth has gone for an indefinite time period, perhaps for many times or ages as some of the ancient sages speculated). Simple and pure Hebrew narrative style.

 

[simchat_torah]

Well...you're translating it VERY liberally, Simchat!

Not at all Koilias.

Bereshit - In a beginning

Bara - was created

Elohim - G-d

put together we have:

Bereshit Bara Elohim
In a beginning was created G-d.

this is a literal translation.

Jewish mystics have often found this passage to be fascinating. It is liberal to translate it otherwise. However, it is quite true that often times we must translate from one language to another in a non-literal way to understand the meaning of the text. But to liteally translate Genisis 1:1 is to do as I have above.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

I'm sure Rabbi Cohen can help me with this one...

When it says Bara Elohim... would that be 'was created a G-d'... or 'was created the G-d'?

Considering the indefinate article "a" does not exist in Hebrew, I thought it was typically assumed when the word "the" is missing before the noun. Is this correct Rabbi?

Or was my previous literal translation correct: "In a beginning was created G-d"?

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

Koilias,

I suppose I'll fill you in on the Kabbalistic thought here... Though much of this can be found in the "Kabbalah on Topic" thread.


Kabbalah teaches that our minds are finite. HaShem is infinate. Let's pretend you could measure knowledge in blocks. Say for example, you had 100 blocks of knowledge of G-d. What percentage of HaShem do you understand or know?
What percentage is 100 of infinity?
Zero.

What if you knew 10,00o units of knowledge of HaShem? What percentage of HaShem do you now understand?
Still Zero.

Essentially, HaShem is unknowable to our finite minds. In a very basic sense, Kabbalists teach that HaShem created in the beginning the the attributes, characteristics, and qualities of his nature that we finite beings would be able to comprehend.

Can we define HaShem as Justice(Gevurah)? Yes. But what about Mercy (chesed)? Yes. Are these two contrary in meaning? Yes. Yet we understand that HaShem balances them perfectly within his nature. The totallity of his nature are unfathomable because they are so beyond our finite minds. Yet, through these attributes, we are able to understand who he is in a finite way.

shalom,
Yafet.

 

[koilias]

wonderful rabbit trail in this thread Mystically, I love your kabbalist teaching, Yafet. I meant literally in the sentence...because clearly God is the subject, and the objects are the heavens and the earth. You have to stop mid-sentence and step into the mystical plane to get that "literal" understanding of the first three words.

You might say, perhaps, but finer Hebrew scholars need to let me know, that you can translate:

"In a beginning was created God...and the heavens and the earth."
Or
"In a beginning was created God, with the heavens and with the earth."

But I have trouble taking such a translation "literally"...unless you have a better resolution.
Perhaps I can buy this one:
"In a beginning was created God (period).
And the heavens and the earth?
Well, the earth was being unformed and void, and the darkness was over the face of the deep (the heavens?), and the wind of HaShem was moving to and fro over the face of the waters (the heavens?)."

I might buy that one...

 

[simchat_torah]

Sorry for my absence, I was at an Illinois basketball game most of the day. I will return tommorow with comments.

shalom,

yafet