Can anyone here say yes to this?

[BlackLamb]

I think it's silly to believe Jesus came to save us from having to follow all these frustrating and harsh OT rules, make us spiritually free, and then turn around and say, "Oh yeah, by the way, women can't preach".

I mean, that whole idea just comes out of nowhere. It's so petty I can't believe the verses are to be taken at face value, and the background explanations for what was going on in the church seem reasonable (I mean, the books Paul wrote were originally LETTERS to address things that were going on with the churches). It seems people accuse women of denying this "rule" so they can feel "equal". Isn't it possible male pride plays a part?

 

[GenemZ]

Exactly - in their culture. What about in our culture?

The Bible needs to be interpreted according to the meaning of words at the time of writing. Its called Isogogics.

So a single man would not have been allowed to pastor a church, no matter what his gifts, unless he had a wife? Any evidence that this never happened in the early church? What if it had, would the man have been excommunicated?

Again, the Greek does not use the words "husband and wife." It says more like (in our way of speaking) "A one woman, man." Polygamy was not a practice in the Roman Empire. It should not be referring to that. If the man is single? No pastor I know of was. Do you know of anyone God gave the gift that was single? I can not recall one. Only the Catholic church follows that practice... but they act more like middle management of a religious bureaucracy, rather than being spiritually autonomous as a pastor should be.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

It seems people accuse women of denying this "rule" so they can feel "equal". Isn't it possible male pride plays a part?

And, isn't it possible that some folks just hate any authority that is absolute? That is caused by pride, as well.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

In all the ramblings this thread has taken I have yet to see anyone make a case using the example of Priscilla (Prisca). Luke tells us that when she and Aquila heard Apollos they took him to their home and they explained the way of God more adequately.

They took him home. They did not teach in Church. Notice that?

Sounds like a case of a woman instructing a man here. And why is Priscilla's name always mentioned first? (by Luke twice in Acts and by Paul in Romans) Did she have a higher social status than her husband or was she more active in ministry than he? And why, if she was offering instruction or preaching to men, didn't Paul say anything against her?

Celtie

It does not mean the same thing to pass along what someone has learned from a pastor, as to be a pastor who gets his messages directly from God (if he is truly annointed).

Illustration: A captain gives his troops a command. Someone may have missed it. A private who knows what was said, passes along what the command was to the one who did not hear. Yet, that private did not give that command. Likewise, Priscilla and Aquila were only passing along what they were shown from a man. They were not originating a command with their own authority.

People who do not have the spiritual gift to teach do not realize that the one teaching (if he is truly annointed) does not get his teaching from a book of sermons. Those books are for those who have a gift of speaking, but not teaching. An annointed man is like an artist painting on a blank canvas. His paints are all the doctrinal knowledge he possess. But, the picture he paints must come from his gift. God does not give this gift to be a pastor to a woman. But, because there are so many poor quality pastors today, a woman can often times match what most pastors are passing off for teaching these days.

2 Timothy 4:3 niv
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

For some, hearing a woman in the way she teaches, suites their itching ears just fine. For those who want that motherly effect, women pastors work.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[seebs]

The notion that God can only talk directly to half of His people strikes me as questionable.

 

[Antonio83]

Aaahhh 1Timothy 2:11-12...a verse of contention.

The best testimony about God does not come from a man or woman. It comes from the Holy Spirit, which is fully in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I read earlier in the thread about the whole of the New Testament as being the words of Jesus Christ himself. I disagree with that notion. The Word of God comes from the mouth of Jesus, because He is the Word of God. And His words are distinctly quoted in the Bible, some with red lettering...for a reason too....

If you notice, Paul sometimes likes to point out whether or not what he is saying are direct commandments from God or whether they are his own rules. Therefore sometimes Paul may give orders or instructions that are not necessarily the commandments of God.

Of course, John the Baptist spoke of the Light, but he was not the Light. Same with Paul, he spoke of the Light, but is not the Light. Jesus is that Light. His words are Life, not Paul's.

My advice (whatever its worth) is:
Use the teachings of Jesus quoted in the Bible (whether directly or indirectly quoted) as a foundation to better understand man's testimony.

Man's testimony about God is not perfect. Neither is mine. Neither is Paul's.

What about God's testimony about God? Can't get a more perfect testimony than that can we? Lets stick with it then, the words of Jesus.

 

[Strong in Him]

2 Timothy 4:3 niv
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

For some, hearing a woman in the way she teaches, suites their itching ears just fine. For those who want that motherly effect, women pastors work.

The role of women in church is not doctrine - we are not saved or damned by our acceptance or rejection of it. Furthermore, I'm not a man. So if you're into taking verses absolutely literally, then this one doesn't apply to me.

But implying that your interpretation of a verse of Scripture is sound doctrine, and anyone who disagrees with it is just hearing what they want to hear, is not correct.

I don't know why I'm continuing with this discussion really. I know God has called me, so either God has changed his mind, or that verse doesn't mean what people here teaches it means.


I still have a sermon to write. See you

 

[Macrina]

They took him home. They did not teach in Church. Notice that?

The church met in homes. They did not have buildings set apart for this purpose, as we do now. So how do you distinguish between "Church" and "home" when they are both gatherings of believers that take place in the same location and involve teaching?

 

[drewbiez]

Jocye Meyer explained this in one of her sermons that Paul was putting order into the chuch service and at that time the women sat on one side of the room and the men on the other and the women would be yelling across the room at their husbands asking questions all the time so Paul was trying to keep them from doing this, thus "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home"

The last part of Paul's address at this point is kind of sarcastic "Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?"

 

[St.Augustine]

Jocye Meyer explained this in one of her sermons that Paul was putting order into the chuch service and at that time the women sat on one side of the room and the men on the other and the women would be yelling across the room at their husbands asking questions all the time so Paul was trying to keep them from doing this, thus "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home".

She may very well do that but can she prove her assertion? Especially when scripture says women should ask their husbands at home because...not because of disruption but because "it is a shame for a woman to speak in church"!

 

[marciebaby]

So, it's a shame for women to speak in church? I'll have to remember to keep my lips tightly sealed whenever I walk in the door. Does that mean I have to shut up when I first enter the building, or just the sanctuary? When we spend time passing the peace to one another, I'll have to just nod and smile, remembering how shameful it would be for me to extend God's peace to another. And when my 4-year-old, who is a boy, starts to act up, I'll just have to let it be, because if I tried to hush him, it would be shameful.

 

[Smidlee]

I think it's silly to believe Jesus came to save us from having to follow all these frustrating and harsh OT rules, make us spiritually free, and then turn around and say, "Oh yeah, by the way, women can't preach".

I mean, that whole idea just comes out of nowhere. It's so petty I can't believe the verses are to be taken at face value, and the background explanations for what was going on in the church seem reasonable (I mean, the books Paul wrote were originally LETTERS to address things that were going on with the churches). It seems people accuse women of denying this "rule" so they can feel "equal". Isn't it possible male pride plays a part?

Remember the early church was build upon the old testament so as Paul show this didn't come out of no where. To christians free from the law doesn't mean we live in chaos and there's no order.
Even Peter wouldn't be political correct today. In 1st Peter 3:7 "....giving honour unto the wife, as unto weaker vessel,...." In our culture we have been brainwashed that something weaker means inferior. Paul points out the 1 timothy 2:14 "And Adam was not deceiced, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." Notice this happen long before the Law. Satan hasn't change his tactics : he still more often than not target women with his false doctrine. the serpent has deceived Eve by claiming God hold out on her .... hmmm sounds familiar? satan is saying now "women, God is holding out on you by making you as the weaker vessel and not letting you pastor a church. Weaker means inferior, so God made you inferior to men."
Of course this is a lie ,weaker doesn't at all mean inferior. Example on the super highway we got the stronger vessels : 18 wheelers and the weaker vessels : pickup truck . Each vessel has it's advanages and disadvanages so stronger doesn't alway mean better. A 18 wheelers (like men) has a lot of pulling power to carry heavy loads but it gas mileages is very good plus is long and bulky. In my life my dad was the 18 wheeler who bought in the bacon and the strong leader of the family. then there's the pickup truck which still has power but nothing close to the 18 wheeler but it has better gas mileages plus smaller just right for personal needs. both the 18 wheeler and pickup truck has the same right on the highway so just because you got a stronger vessel gives no right to run ove the weaker one. My mother was as the pickup truck as she was a lot more tender hearted and she fulfill those personal needs for us children. I so gald my mother was 100% woman and not acting like she was a big bulky 18 wheelers trying to pull the weight of a man. 18 wheelers like men are more goal oriented than a pickup truck, women. a 18 wheeler go to one destination to another on a schedule , men find fulfillment in his work. a pickup truck is more multitasking. Example, with a pickup truck you can take your trash to the dump and in the same trip go get groceries but WAIT... it's that a yard sale.. got to stop and find a bargin then I head to the store. (when is the last time you saw a 18 wheeler parked on the side of the road for a yard sale?) Women this is why it's a bad idea have a conversation with your husband when he's working on the car. Everything you say in going in one ear and out the other becase he only got one thing one his mind ; fixing the car. Women can talk on the phone while cooking something on the stove with the baby in one hand and reaching for a snack in another because the older child is pulling on her leg yelling "mommy,mommy". Women usually find fulfillment in relationships.
So it should be surprising that the pastor should be a man as he is the spiritual leader of the whole church with one goal "preach the gospel" while godly women working in the background doing all kind of tasks building up the church.

 

[GenemZ]

The role of women in church is not doctrine - we are not saved or damned by our acceptance or rejection of it.

1 Timothy 4:16 niv
"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

It amazes me, how what you "feel" is the truth, is so contrary to what the Word teaches.

But implying that your interpretation of a verse of Scripture is sound doctrine, and anyone who disagrees with it is just hearing what they want to hear, is not correct.

You can take it, or leave it. I am only speaking the Words as I have learned to be truth. God does not want you following anyone against your will. If it witnesses truth to you, or it does not, is not my concern. For if I speak truth? It will not receive everyone's acceptance, nor should I try to make anyone believe what they do not want to. My only job is to use the Word to expose how their thinking runs contrary to what they do not know what it says. They are still free to reject it. Who knows? I may be deceived.

I don't know why I'm continuing with this discussion really. I know God has called me, so either God has changed his mind, or that verse doesn't mean what people here teaches it means.

I guess that means to say, God has called you, and not me? Being called of God, and being in God's will are not synonymous terms. Many think because they are called that they can do no wrong. That their opinions and how they feel are to be cannonized like Scripture. Well, maybe they should first find out if what the "feel" agrees with Scripture? That would be a way to see where their thought came from. The reason God gave us his Word in writing is to test our thoughts. To see if the conform, or deviate.

I still have a sermon to write. See you

I wish you could see me.
Grace and always hopeful, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

The notion that God can only talk directly to half of His people strikes me as questionable.

God talks to all believers walking in the Spirit. But, he only teaches through a few.

James 3:1 niv
"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

Those who do not teach, he talks to, over what they have learned from those qualified to teach. God talks to all believers who walk in grace. When he speaks, mostly it comes as a thought, not a conversation. Its a thought that must conform to the truth in the Word. Teachers who are qualified are here to protect us from voices that are not of God. For even Peter became a mouthpiece for Satan at one point. Peter thought he was being loving and noble when he did.

Matthew 16:21-23 niv
"From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.


Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

To the average person listening in on that conversation? They would have felt Jesus was quite harsh with Peter who was only showing his love and concern for the Lord's welfare. "He should have been more loving to Peter. After all, Peter was only showing the Lord how much he cared for him."

Matthew 16:24 niv
"Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

If we get our feelings hurt when the truth confronts us, we will not be able to follow Christ. We must deny self. For Satan appeals to the very area that we must deny. God attacks that area with truth through discipline and rebuke. We must transform into becoming objective when taking in the Word of Truth. If we do not become objective, we will find ourselves always objecting.

2 Timothy 4:3 niv
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

How many denominations do we see the world? Each one was designed to suite a list of desires of certain mind sets of individuals who refuse to take up their cross and become transformed into what the objective Word of God will teach us. Now, don't get me wrong. I am not saying I found it. But, I sure know that they all can not have found it. Because Truth does not contradict itself. And, Truth does not bend to our personal preferences.

Grace and contentment, GeneZ

 

[bliz]

Women usually find fulfillment in relationships.
So it should be surprising that the pastor should be a man as he is the spiritual leader of the whole church with one goal "preach the gospel" while godly women working in the background doing all kind of tasks building up the church.

Seems to me that pastoring is all about relationships, too. One who spend most of the time preaching the Gospel would be an evangelist. But a pastor is like a shepheard, spending lots of time with the members of the flock.

I know how incredibly complex the job of pastor is. Why settle for the one-track male mind when you could have a multi-tasking female mind in there that could easily shift from task to task and not miss a trick?

The arguments you made seem to argue against men in the pastoraL role.

 

[LisaStar]

Paul was giving a personal opinion and he was also addressing a particular situation at the time because some women were disrupting church services. It was never meant to be a command of God or instruction for the whole church. It was just for that church at that time. Preachers have made a teaching out of something that was not a commandment of God. And if you ask me I think Paul should have clarified that in his letter because in another letter he says male and female are all equal in Christ. But Paul was just a man and he wasn't perfect. Read Romans 7 if you don't believe that.

 

[David O]

What does the Bible say? Things that aren't true make sense to us all the time. The Bible is true all of the time. The Bible says that it is a shame for women to speak in the churches.

 

[Smidlee]

Seems to me that pastoring is all about relationships, too. One who spend most of the time preaching the Gospel would be an evangelist. But a pastor is like a shepheard, spending lots of time with the members of the flock.

I know how incredibly complex the job of pastor is. Why settle for the one-track male mind when you could have a multi-tasking female mind in there that could easily shift from task to task and not miss a trick?

The arguments you made seem to argue against men in the pastoraL role.

Some people expects too much from pastors. preachers who isn't exactly a people person is look down by many. ( The whole purpose of deacons is to help releave the role of the pastor.) Also I notice people judge the pastor's wife if she not in some kind of big role in the church or isn't a big people person with a super duper smile on her face. Many have commented to me my pastor's wife doesn't act like a pastor's wife and the truth is she don't. I guess that why I like her since I know she not putting up any fronts. It saddens me what alot people expects from their pastors. One of my favorite pastor beside mine was a man who had the personality as rough as sand paper but what a great preacher he was.

 

[bliz]

What does the Bible say? Things that aren't true make sense to us all the time. The Bible is true all of the time. The Bible says that it is a shame for women to speak in the churches.

We do not all agree about what the Bible says about this subject.

The Bible says "There is no God."

But a careful reading of the passage reveals that it really says "The fool has said in his heart "There is no God.""

There are many passages in the Bible about which God-fearing, Bible -believing Christians disagree. This is one of them. The translation of this word... the correct meaning of that word... what Paul was refering to... how things were actually done in the first century church...

You do not have the final answer. I don't have the final answer. God does. This is not a salvation issue. Why does this matter so much to you?

 

[MbiaJc]

And yet Paul says that God has called some to be pastors, with no suggestion that this is men only.

Not so! Scripture please, the only God called God ordained pastor of the Church are the Elder men. Which Paul also give the qualifications to be a Elder. And Instructions for them to be apointed.