Can anyone give me an answer?

[gwdboi]

This may or may not turn into a rant... depending on how emotional I get about it. Can anyone tell me why it is wrong to be gay... there is a condition though... I don't want ANY quotations from the Bible. Can anyone, using sheer logic and scientific study say that it is in some way morally wrong to be gay? Can anybody give a clear argument?

IMHO it is christian bigotry that lands us with a dead eight grader who was just looking for a valentine... if you don't know what I'm talking about goto: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/pol/583978868.html .

I believe that ultimately the church is responsible for such crimes. Most Americans identify as christians and look to the church for truth. We have children killing each other over this issue... what is that child hearing that makes him want to KILL his classmate on the sole basis of that classmate's sexual orientation? There needs to be an end to the bigotry and an end to the hate! People say that homosexuality is unnatural and that homosexuals suffer... I tell you this, the only reason that I have suffered due to my homosexuality was because others decided to hate me for it. What has happened to love? Isn't that what Jesus preached about so much? Love? Love without strings attached. As far as I know Jesus didn't say "I love you so long as you aren't x, y, z." Jesus said "whosoever will may come"

I am not a christian but the sheer logic is undeniable. Search your hearts... tell me what you think.

 

[Archer93]

I'm with you in your question, but I don't think you're going to get much of an answer.... you've been on these forums for a lot longer than I have, and I've rarely seen any argument against homosexuality that doesn't relate back to the bible- usually the same handful of verses.

The only thing that's much of an exception is the idea that if everyone was gay then the human race would die out- which a) isn't actually true as there are enough indicators that the parenting instinct is alive and well among same sex couples, and b) ignores the simple fact that there's never any question of EVERYONE being gay!
I've seen suggestions that homosexuality may be a natural response to potential over population- reduces the birthrate but maintains pair-bonding which is good for a society. But for that to become a proper theory there would need to be a better understanding of the potential mechanics of this.....

The thing is, logic and science have very little to do with morality- the Social Contract concept suggests that it is logical to behave in a beneficial way towards others in order to encourage them to behave beneficially to you- Game theory.
But that's not what is commonly understood by 'morality'.... It's generally a philosophical/religious concept.

Sorry, not very helpful. Just my random thoughts.....

Am also wondering what tangiable harm gay rights in general are supposed to do to society, and specifically how gay marriage will destroy that very institution.

 

[KCKID]

I'm with you in your question, but I don't think you're going to get much of an answer.... you've been on these forums for a lot longer than I have, and I've rarely seen any argument against homosexuality that doesn't relate back to the bible- usually the same handful of verses.

The only thing that's much of an exception is the idea that if everyone was gay then the human race would die out- which a) isn't actually true as there are enough indicators that the parenting instinct is alive and well among same sex couples, and b) ignores the simple fact that there's never any question of EVERYONE being gay!
I've seen suggestions that homosexuality may be a natural response to potential over population- reduces the birthrate but maintains pair-bonding which is good for a society. But for that to become a proper theory there would need to be a better understanding of the potential mechanics of this.....

The thing is, logic and science have very little to do with morality- the Social Contract concept suggests that it is logical to behave in a beneficial way towards others in order to encourage them to behave beneficially to you- Game theory.
But that's not what is commonly understood by 'morality'.... It's generally a philosophical/religious concept.

Sorry, not very helpful. Just my random thoughts.....

Am also wondering what tangiable harm gay rights in general are supposed to do to society, and specifically how gay marriage will destroy that very institution.

This very same question has been asked previously of several of the predominantly 'anti-gay' folks on this forum. They have only skimmed over this question and ignored it. It seems at times as though some can't put one foot in front of the other without first consulting the Bible. Becoming so wrapped up in a book to the exclusion of the obvious realities of life that affect fellow human beings surely can't be healthy.

So, good luck!

 

[BreadAlone]

This very same question has been asked previously of several of the predominantly 'anti-gay' folks on this forum. They have only skimmed over this question and ignored it. It seems at times as though some can't put one foot in front of the other without first consulting the Bible. Becoming so wrapped up in a book to the exclusion of the obvious realities of life that affect fellow human beings surely can't be healthy.

So, good luck!

Nor can ignoring the very Word of God.

~~

As to the OP; ask yourself these questions:

Why is murder wrong? Why is pedophilia wrong? Why is robbery wrong? Why is rape wrong?

Because the moral law in our hearts convicts us that it's wrong. Furthermore, it's bluntly obvious that all of these things negatively affects another person.

It's the same with homosexuality. The moral law giver first, foremost, and most importantly has said it's wrong. That in and of itself is enough for me.

But actively engaging in homosexuality not only causes your partner to sin, but belittles God's wonderful gift of marriage, abuses his gift of sex, and blinds people to the ultimate relationship exampled by marriage; the relationship between Christ and his Church.

 

[gwdboi]

Nor can ignoring the very Word of God.

~~

As to the OP; ask yourself these questions:

Why is murder wrong? Why is pedophilia wrong? Why is robbery wrong? Why is rape wrong?

Because the moral law in our hearts convicts us that it's wrong. Furthermore, it's bluntly obvious that all of these things negatively affects another person.

It's the same with homosexuality. The moral law giver first, foremost, and most importantly has said it's wrong. That in and of itself is enough for me.

But actively engaging in homosexuality not only causes your partner to sin, but belittles God's wonderful gift of marriage, abuses his gift of sex, and blinds people to the ultimate relationship exampled by marriage; the relationship between Christ and his Church.

WHY? Because god said so is a cop out. In my spiritual practice I find that the only things that are WRONG are those things that harm others. Homosexuality harms no one... BIGOTRY KILLS.

 

[BreadAlone]

I said:

But actively engaging in homosexuality not only causes your partner to sin, but belittles God's wonderful gift of marriage, abuses his gift of sex, and blinds people to the ultimate relationship exampled by marriage; the relationship between Christ and his Church.

Did you miss that part? Or did you fixate on the part where I said God's Word is important to me?

 

[BigBadWlf]

For the same reason it “wrong” to be left handed or have dark skin or have blue eyes…in other words…it isn’t wrong at all

 

[BigBadWlf]

Nor can ignoring the very Word of God.

~~

As to the OP; ask yourself these questions:

Why is murder wrong? Why is pedophilia wrong? Why is robbery wrong? Why is rape wrong?

Form an objective ethical viewpoint they all have a victim and they all cause harm to that victim.

Homosexuality has no victim and causes no harm



From that same objective ethical viewpoint your behavior, your association of a minority with murders and child molesters does cause harm.

Because the moral law in our hearts convicts us that it's wrong. Furthermore, it's bluntly obvious that all of these things negatively affects another person.

It's the same with homosexuality. The moral law giver first, foremost, and most importantly has said it's wrong. That in and of itself is enough for me.


But actively engaging in homosexuality not only causes your partner to sin, but belittles God's wonderful gift of marriage, abuses his gift of sex, and blinds people to the ultimate relationship exampled by marriage; the relationship between Christ and his Church.

You speak of Christian ethics yet you gladly put them aside to attack a minority. Why is your behavior here morally acceptable?

 

[KCKID]

I'm with you in your question, but I don't think you're going to get much of an answer.... you've been on these forums for a lot longer than I have, and I've rarely seen any argument against homosexuality that doesn't relate back to the bible- usually the same handful of verses.

AND presented by the same handful of people who evidently feel that they are in a position of righteousness to do so. My Bible tells me that NONE are righteous. They've apparantly missed that verse in their zeal to slam homosexuals with those handful of scriptures.

The only thing that's much of an exception is the idea that if everyone was gay then the human race would die out- which a) isn't actually true as there are enough indicators that the parenting instinct is alive and well among same sex couples, and b) ignores the simple fact that there's never any question of EVERYONE being gay!
I've seen suggestions that homosexuality may be a natural response to potential over population- reduces the birthrate but maintains pair-bonding which is good for a society. But for that to become a proper theory there would need to be a better understanding of the potential mechanics of this.....

There ARE Christian bigots (although I'm sure we don't have any on THIS forum ) who are not remotely interested in understanding the mechanics of homosexuality. Some appear to believe that they already have their halo and their harp (yawn) and if one or two scriptures can be targetted toward the perceived 'lesser Christians' to slam them down then that seems to be their mission in life.

The thing is, logic and science have very little to do with morality- the Social Contract concept suggests that it is logical to behave in a beneficial way towards others in order to encourage them to behave beneficially to you- Game theory.
But that's not what is commonly understood by 'morality'.... It's generally a philosophical/religious concept.

Sorry, not very helpful. Just my random thoughts.....

Am also wondering what tangiable harm gay rights in general are supposed to do to society, and specifically how gay marriage will destroy that very institution.

It won't, of course. But ...targetting homosexuals has become the 'in thing' for (some) Christians. It's psychology. It's easier to overlook one's own sins when another's 'sins' are highlighted by the group. The sad thing is that there actually ARE so many evils in this world that these 'saints' COULD be concentrating on. One that springs to mind immediately is greed and self-gratification. THAT is what will destroy us. We have bred a 'me' generation that has little consideration for anyone else but themselves.

Another thread perhaps.

 

[BreadAlone]

Form an objective ethical viewpoint they all have a victim and they all cause harm to that victim.

Homosexuality has no victim and causes no harm



From that same objective ethical viewpoint your behavior, your association of a minority with murders and child molesters does cause harm.

I address this in the latter part of my post.

You speak of Christian ethics yet you gladly put them aside to attack a minority. Why is your behavior here morally acceptable?

Because: "The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love."

God's response to people who dislike his authority:

"Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?"

I'd rather listen to God rather than your opinion of morality, thanks.

 

[BreadAlone]

Oh, btw, sinners are not a minority..EVERYONE sins.

 

[BigBadWlf]

[/font]

I address this in the latter part of my post.

No you didn’t

Homosexuality does not cause harm any more than heterosexuality causes harm

Your attempt to associate an entire minority with criminals however does cause harm

Because: "The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love."

So you are saying that it is morally OK to put aside morality so long as one can quote a random biblical verse

God's response to people who dislike his authority:

And thus it is God’s response to you as you continually ignore the command of Jesus and show disdain for God’s authority
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35

"Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?"

You mean as you have falsely condemned an entire minority in this thread?

I'd rather listen to God rather than your opinion of morality, thanks.

By no coincidence I would rather listen to God than your attempts to vilify a minority just to justify your own petty personal prejudices

 

[BigBadWlf]

Oh, btw, sinners are not a minority..EVERYONE sins.

A minority is a minority and they are not criminals

 

[BreadAlone]

A minority is a minority and they are not criminals

They are not a "minority." They're not some ethnic group. They are hardened sinners who need the love of Christ just like the rest of sinful humanity.

 

[BreadAlone]

No you didn’t

Homosexuality does not cause harm any more than heterosexuality causes harm

Your attempt to associate an entire minority with criminals however does cause harm

They are sinners, just like everyone else.

So you are saying that it is morally OK to put aside morality so long as one can quote a random biblical verse

If it agrees with the Bible, it is not putting aside morality. To agree with something contrary to scripture is putting aside morality.

And thus it is God’s response to you as you continually ignore the command of Jesus and show disdain for God’s authority
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35

How dare you, some aquaintance on the internet whom I have never met, accuse me of not loving. Following the will of God is not unloving..claiming the Bible is falacy is.

You mean as you have falsely condemned an entire minority in this thread?

By no coincidence I would rather listen to God than your attempts to vilify a minority just to justify your own petty personal prejudices

I don't know what minority you speak of..all I've done is show God's condemnation of a sinful act.

 

[gwdboi]

They are not a "minority." They're not some ethnic group. They are hardened sinners who need the love of Christ just like the rest of sinful humanity.

I'm sorry, but in case you haven't noticed... the "love of chirst" apparently KILLS. It really makes me sick. Nobody has ever killed in the name of the goddess. As a matter of fact, she cries at the death of every innocent. I tell you this much... it's thoughts like "hardened sinners" that start the bigotry... thoughts like that make us seem a little less human... and when something is just a little less human it makes it okay to kill for some sort of sick pleasure.

 

[BreadAlone]

Who said anything about kill? NO one has the right to kill anyone. And EVERYONE is born a hopeless sinner. God in his great mercy calls us by the gospel and gives us faith through the Holy Spirit.

And you know what, if they're not Christians anyways, what do they care what we think? It's not our business to judge the world; that's God's job. We only judge those within our numbers.

 

[gwdboi]

Who said anything about kill? NO one has the right to kill anyone. And EVERYONE is born a hopeless sinner. God in his great mercy calls us by the gospel and gives us faith through the Holy Spirit.

And you know what, if they're not Christians anyways, what do they care what we think? It's not our business to judge the world; that's God's job. We only judge those within our numbers.

Why do we care... why do I care? Because, the majority effects our lives. And yes, bigotry leads to killing, if you don't believe me then do your own research on it. In my world, there's nothing wrong with me, yet I have people come up to me... my own mother being one of them and telling me that I'm sick... ill. If you had people coming up to you and telling you that there was some sort of problem with you wouldn't you care? Yes, bigotry which can start out as nothing more than a simple joke can lead to a hate crime because people don't understand and don't care to understand about homosexuality. Tell me, have you personally looked into the psychological research on homosexuality, or have you just been parroting out to us everything you've heard others say? Your opinions in life help others define who you are, be careful which opinions you choose.

 

[BreadAlone]

Why do we care... why do I care? Because, the majority effects our lives. And yes, bigotry leads to killing, if you don't believe me then do your own research on it. In my world, there's nothing wrong with me, yet I have people come up to me... my own mother being one of them and telling me that I'm sick... ill. If you had people coming up to you and telling you that there was some sort of problem with you wouldn't you care? Yes, bigotry which can start out as nothing more than a simple joke can lead to a hate crime because people don't understand and don't care to understand about homosexuality. Tell me, have you personally looked into the psychological research on homosexuality, or have you just been parroting out to us everything you've heard others say? Your opinions in life help others define who you are, be careful which opinions you choose.

Hating sin is not bigotry first of all. Now if people are hating and killing people for committing the sin of homosexuality, they are in the wrong just like the homosexual is.

Homosexuality is a symptom of a disease; just like murder, robbery, and other forms of sexual immorality are.

The disease is sin, and all humanity is infected with it. There is only one cure, and that cure is Christ.

 

[OllieFranz]

Who said anything about kill? NO one has the right to kill anyone.

Apparently you did not even bother to read the OP. You just saw another new thread to spew forth your pre-digested pap.

The question for which the OP asked for an answer was prompted by the murder of a 14-year-old boy by another 14-year-old boy because of a valentine card. Shocking. And people -- Christians -- try to excuse the boy, not necessarily the murder, but they justify his feelings of disgust, which led to the murder.

When I was in eighth grade, it was expected that we would give valentine cards to all of our classmates regardless of their sex.