Can anyone give me an answer?

[Jet_A_Jockey]

The majority of alcoholics do not have the identified genetic disposition.

Well I was referring to the ones who do have the genetic disposition, not a comparison between those who do and don't and how many end up being alcoholics.

And more to the point the comparison between alcoholics and homosexuals is false

Still don't see how you can come to that conclusion. A person with alcoholism as a genetic predisposition should probably stay away from the drink, should he not? Just because he was made with a genetic predisposition that favors alcoholism, it does not mean that its okay for him to become an alcoholic does it?

Like being made left handed?

hah, only if that left hand causes you to sin.

There are un-obvious reasons?

Depends on who is reading. But if you really want to know, any post that contains the word 'homosexual' and 'pedophile'/'murderer'/'rapist' gets jumped all over and never topically addressed, so whats the point?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Archer93,

By the gods...
We've gone over why argument from reproductive capacity is a logical fallacy a hundred times before- if you don't get by now the hypocrasy of claiming that an inability to reproduce is okay if it's a design flaw but is an excellent reason for legislating against same sex couples, then there's little point in trying to debate with you.

The issue I was addressing was your talk about condemnation as in the quote of mine you have posted. Please can you reply to this … , you are the one who was talking about people condemning. As far as Christians are concerned there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

*should that have been a 'can't'? Either way though, still condemnatory

Yes it should have been ‘cant’ but it is a fact whether one attributes it to nature or science or God. You seem to feel reality condemns.

You may not mean to be condemnatory, you may not want it to be conmenatory, you may even try to say that it isn't condemnatory, but in fact it is condemnatory.
What you are doing in those lines, is condemning people.
Either stop it or admit to it.

No it isnt there are no two people I know who are a same-sex pair bonding, it is an action that two people do, not what two people are, If I am condemning I am condemning an action that two people do, not the people themselves.

Furthermore please remember this is a Christian section of the forum and we will give Biblical references, the NIV says a same-sex union is perversion Romans 1. If you don’t like the Christian view I am however sorry, but I cant change it.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear BigBadWlf,

To bare false witness against a minority is the Christian way?

No, as I pointed out from what Romans 1 says. Interestingly to bear false witness against the Christian minority might be something to discuss.

Weasel wording on your part.

Not at all, the scientific community is not agreed on this. The gay and lesbian argument keeps insisting they are, which I would say is more like weasel wording.

You might want to actually learn something about evolution and the theories behind it before making such statements

I know a lot, having studied geology as well possibly more than you.

Yet its quite easy to observe that millions of gays and lesbians manage it just fine. So I guess that proves you wrong

But science is based on observation and we can see that the sex organs of men and women are designed for each other and the two sex organs of men or of women simply aren’t compatible except for sexual gratification.
I guess yes we can also see that that millions of gays and lesbians manage it just fine as gratification. .. which makes me right.

You are providing actual scientific evidence? I must have missed that. where exactly is the scientific evidence you presented?

Sorry but I asked you the question, it was you who mentioned scientific evidence, if you wish to trade scientific evidence please start by providing some yourself.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Dear BigBadWlf,

No, as I pointed out from what Romans 1 says. Interestingly to bear false witness against the Christian minority might be something to discuss.

Not at all, the scientific community is not agreed on this. The gay and lesbian argument keeps insisting they are, which I would say is more like weasel wording.

Really?

Wow

So why don’t you put together all the published peer reviewed studies showing homosexuality is a choice and start a thread and we can discuss them

I know a lot, having studied geology as well possibly more than you.

But science is based on observation and we can see that the sex organs of men and women are designed for each other and the two sex organs of men or of women simply aren’t compatible except for sexual gratification.

I guess yes we can also see that that millions of gays and lesbians manage it just fine as gratification. .. which makes me right.

You can discriminate against people because they are different. But that doesn’t make it right

Sorry but I asked you the question, it was you who mentioned scientific evidence, if you wish to trade scientific evidence please start by providing some yourself.

So you can’t provide any scientific evidence to back up your prejudice. I’m not surprised.

But as long as we are here, why are you insisting that those opposed to discrimination have a higher level of evidence than you?

 

[UnitedInChrist]

Really?

Wow

So why don’t you put together all the published peer reviewed studies showing homosexuality is a choice and start a thread and we can discuss them
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You can discriminate against people because they are different. But that doesn’t make it right


So you can’t provide any scientific evidence to back up your prejudice. I’m not surprised.

But as long as we are here, why are you insisting that those opposed to discrimination have a higher level of evidence than you?

This is incredible. Does the original poster even realize that at the time of the bible was written, it was thought that women contributed NOTHING to the formation of a child? Science 2000+ years ago stated then MEN were the providers of life, and women were just the "vessel" to carry the child til birth. That is the reason WHY there was all the issues with "spilling of the seed" etc...

Not that anyone here will think any differently anyway.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear BigBadWlf,

You can discriminate against people because they are different. But that doesn’t make it right

Sorry but ih response to my comment they aren’t different if they have the same sex organs male or female, they are only different in their thinking and desires which with same sex are obviously incompatible with the physical... so yes the thinking is error.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Dear BigBadWlf,
Sorry but ih response to my comment they aren’t different if they have the same sex organs male or female, they are only different in their thinking and desires which with same sex are obviously incompatible with the physical... so yes the thinking is error.

And no matter how hard you try you can’t justify discrimination either

 

[DMagoh]

This may or may not turn into a rant... depending on how emotional I get about it. Can anyone tell me why it is wrong to be gay... there is a condition though... I don't want ANY quotations from the Bible. Can anyone, using sheer logic and scientific study say that it is in some way morally wrong to be gay? Can anybody give a clear argument?...

... tell me what you think.

Can anyone tell me why after three strikes you are out in baseball... there is a conditon though... I don't want ANY quotations from the rulebook.

Since God is in charge and created everything and everybody, He decides what is right and wrong. If you are not a Christian, then you can throw away God's plan and live anyway you want to. There are consequences though.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Dear BigBadWlf,
Sorry but ih response to my comment they aren’t different if they have the same sex organs male or female, they are only different in their thinking and desires which with same sex are obviously incompatible with the physical... so yes the thinking is error.

So why don’t you put together all the published peer reviewed studies showing homosexuality is a choice and start a thread and we can discuss them

 

[BigBadWlf]

Can anyone tell me why after three strikes you are out in baseball... there is a conditon though... I don't want ANY quotations from the rulebook.

Its arbitrary and if you want to use this as some sort of example then you are saying is that morality and this case specifically God is entirely arbitrary.

Since God is in charge and created everything and everybody, He decides what is right and wrong. If you are not a Christian, then you can throw away God's plan and live anyway you want to. There are consequences though.[/quote]

Is what is ‘wrong’ declared by God to be wrong because it is so…or is it ‘wrong’ because God declared it so?

To follow God’s law does not make one good. It can be argued that following God’s law makes one self-serving, particularly when one is threatened with “consequences. Good people do not act in good ways because of religion or societal pressure or fear of consequences material or spiritual. Good people do good because that is what they do. A good person doesn’t engage in self –talk about risks and benefits. A good person doesn’t’ think about confession or repentance because a good person acts in good ways period.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

To follow God’s law does not make one good.

If someone follows it perfectly than I could see that as being good.

It can be argued that following God’s law makes one self-serving, particularly when one is threatened with “consequences.

i agree

Good people do good because that is what they do.

I thought they do good because of their love for God.

A good person doesn’t engage in self –talk about risks and benefits.

I agree, its the heart that is the source of the action, and the heart that will be judged.

A good person doesn’t’ think about confession or repentance because a good person acts in good ways period.

But a good person can still sin, right? Most of the "best" biblical examples fell into sin (except Christ ofc), and repentance was the key. Their repentance is another act of good, at least to God of the bible. And I'll not get started on confession today,

 

[BigBadWlf]

If someone follows it perfectly than I could see that as being good.

No it would put them in jail. For some reason while many in society don’t care about the murder of homosexuals , many do care about killing disobedient children, animal sacrifice and selling your children into slavery

i agree

Strange…since you were the one using the threat of consequences

I thought they do good because of their love for God.

So according to you atheists cannot be good people.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

No it would put them in jail. For some reason while many in society don’t care about the murder of homosexuals , many do care about killing disobedient children, animal sacrifice and selling your children into slavery

I'm sorry, are you representing a Christian view? You appear to bash the bible more than support it, so I'm curious. It's interesting that you appear to understand the bible yet do not take it in context whatsoever, and then make claims against fundamentalists for the same thing.

Strange…since you were the one using the threat of consequences

its funny that you can't even let me agree with you without having some kind of remark, are you against me or my view?

So according to you atheists cannot be good people.

I never said they couldn't. People who do not worship God may still indirectly do His will. I'm sure you know this already though.

I'm talking about what is good from God's perspective, as given by example in the bible. Also as how it pertains to Christians, not atheists, as the majority of us here are (or at least claim to be) Christians. I'm sure you will tear that all apart also, although I'm not sure why, as we supposedly worship the same God?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

This may or may not turn into a rant... depending on how emotional I get about it. Can anyone tell me why it is wrong to be gay... there is a condition though... I don't want ANY quotations from the Bible. Can anyone, using sheer logic and scientific study say that it is in some way morally wrong to be gay? Can anybody give a clear argument?

IMHO it is christian bigotry that lands us with a dead eight grader who was just looking for a valentine... if you don't know what I'm talking about goto: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/pol/583978868.html .

I believe that ultimately the church is responsible for such crimes. Most Americans identify as christians and look to the church for truth. We have children killing each other over this issue... what is that child hearing that makes him want to KILL his classmate on the sole basis of that classmate's sexual orientation? There needs to be an end to the bigotry and an end to the hate! People say that homosexuality is unnatural and that homosexuals suffer... I tell you this, the only reason that I have suffered due to my homosexuality was because others decided to hate me for it. What has happened to love? Isn't that what Jesus preached about so much? Love? Love without strings attached. As far as I know Jesus didn't say "I love you so long as you aren't x, y, z." Jesus said "whosoever will may come"

I am not a christian but the sheer logic is undeniable. Search your hearts... tell me what you think.

It doesn't quite fit.

So according to you atheists cannot be good people.

Well, according to them there is no such thing as good and bad.. so who knows.

 

[artybloke]

Well, according to them there is no such thing as good and bad.. so who knows.

Atheists don't always agree about what is good and bad (but then neither do Christians, Muslims or other religious people), but I doubt you'll find many atheists who don't follow some kind of moral code about what is good and bad. I can't see many atheists who think it's OK to kill other people, for instance.

What they don't have is a concept of sin, which is essentially a religious concept, mainly confined to the Abrahamic religions (it doesn't play much of a role in Hinduism and Bhuddism, though both religions have strong moral codes.)