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Can anyone give me an answer?

Jet_A_Jockey

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You have shown your perspective...if I don't see Romans 1 as a condemnation against all same sex behavior, it suddenly becomes a "justification"?
No, it becomes an attempt at justification when you reject and/or redirect any evidence against your position.

I only simplified to avoid a derailment, Jet, which is currently starting. If you've been reading these threads, you would see that I have discussed Romans 1, and all the other clobber passages in great depth.:
If you were truly analyzing the passages without a need for justification then you would'nt call them clobber passages, since they don't clobber anything in itself. And I readdressed your evaluation of arsenkoites a few days ago but I haven't seen if you've replied to that or not since these threads build so quickly.
 
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Criada

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The only thing perverted would be to have a gay or lesbian person be with the opposite sex, that would be unnatural for the individual.
Yes.
And for those who are considering such a life... don't.
The pain is not worth it.
 
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KCKID

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It most certainly does. Read Romans 1..because of their sinfulness "God gave them over to their shameful lusts.."

The above is one of those examples of scripture that has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. The topic is 'Why is it wrong to be gay' and concerns the eighth-grader who was killed for being gay.

For crying out loud, if you MUST use scripture to do your thinking for you then choose a scripture that is relevant to the issue!
 
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KCKID

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It's almost like saying "if everyone wanted to be a Paramedic, the world would be in grave danger for not having anyone in the Police Force, no Nurses, lawyers", etc.

The world would be in grave danger if we had no blood-sucking lawyers ...?

Sorry, but I couldn't let that pass without a comment. :)
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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The above is one of those examples of scripture that has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. The topic is 'Why is it wrong to be gay' and concerns the eighth-grader who was killed for being gay.

For crying out loud, if you MUST use scripture to do your thinking for you then choose a scripture that is relevant to the issue!

I think there is some disparity between everyone's definitions of "gay". I think that some people do not separate sexual attraction from sexual action, which are two completely different things.
 
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Archer93

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I don't have flawed logic. Speaking strictly from an evolutionary point of view homosexuality is something that would die out.

Strictly analitically speaking, why would evolution create homosexuality, yet the body remains the same to reject it, and the sexual result ends in the dying of that species.

You keep assuming there are heterosexuals to continue the race. If homosexuality were an evolutionary change then you can not expect that. If evolution brought around this change it would also bring about a way to procreate. If you are telling me that a homosexual man can be sexual attracted to a heterosexual woman to be able to procreate I think you are opening up a can of worms, and ultimately bring the whole theory into contradiction of itself.

If homosexuality is part of evolution then it would have to have a predominantly genetic basis.
This is not, as far as I'm aware, a given- but let's assume it is for the moment.
Not every genetic trait manifests in each carrier. Some genes are regressive- for example hair colour.
I have blonde hair, but neither of my parents do. However, both carried the blonde hair gene which was passed to me from both sides. If only one had passed on a dark hair gene then I would have dark hair but I could still pass on the blonde hair gene to any children of mine.

Or to look at a less benign condition- sickle cell anaemia. Carrying the genes for it without having the full condition gives a high resistance to malaria, so there was a benefit to having this. However, when the genes are reinforced the resultant condition could and did cause high infant mortality before the condition was properly studied, analysed and treated. Evolutionarity speaking, it was 'better' to loose a number of children when they were young than to loose a larger number of adults to malaria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle_cell_anaemia

A wide varistion in genetic makeup is a survival trait. If all people were essentially the same in terms of genetic traits such as immunity then one illness could wipe out the entire population. The Black Death, for example, infected killed large amounts of varous populations, but some people were immune or had an immune system that could fight it off and they were the ones who could pass on this trait to their children.

Basically, evolution can produce traits that, if common to all people, would indeed signal the end of the species; sickle cell anaemia, a particular immune system. But in the same way, evolution means that not everyone will have the same trait.
Diversity equals survival.

To apply this to homosexuality- there is a tentative hypothesis that the development of homosexuality was in some way a response to over-population pressures. It promotes pair-bonding, which is beneficial to society, and increases the number of adults available to increase resources without also creating drains on these resources, as in early societies the high infant and child mortality rates would mean that resources would be used up without the expected repayment from the child when they grew up. But this is still in the hypothesis stage as there is an incomplete understanding of the mechanics a)behind why some people are homosexual and b)how this pressure would trigger homosexuality in the first place.
Still, it's an interesting thought, which would mean that homosexuality is evolutionarily beneficial.

The problem with arguments from biology, though, is that it suggests that things such as love and attraction are purely chemical responses- this does not appear to be the case. There appears to be a strong mental componant as well, relating to the mind and consciousness as opposed to the brain and body.
It really is a fascinating field of study which may never be fully explored and answered, but there are no indications of non-societal reasons (i.e. reasons that don't boil down to 'My God says it's wrong' or a personal 'ick' factor) why there should be a problem with homosexuality.


BTW, a 'homosexual' man who is capable of being sexually attracted to women is a bisexual man. If he had to close his eyes and think of Brad Pitt, then he really is fully homosexual.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Nor can ignoring the very Word of God.

~~

As to the OP; ask yourself these questions:

Why is murder wrong? Why is pedophilia wrong? Why is robbery wrong? Why is rape wrong?

Because the moral law in our hearts convicts us that it's wrong. Furthermore, it's bluntly obvious that all of these things negatively affects another person.

It's the same with homosexuality. The moral law giver first, foremost, and most importantly has said it's wrong. That in and of itself is enough for me.

But actively engaging in homosexuality not only causes your partner to sin, but belittles God's wonderful gift of marriage, abuses his gift of sex, and blinds people to the ultimate relationship exampled by marriage; the relationship between Christ and his Church.
Thread derailed by 4th post. a new record.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Originally Posted by Amaryllismayfly
I don't have flawed logic. Speaking strictly from an evolutionary point of view homosexuality is something that would die out.
Just like non breeding bees, wolves, and lions are clearly evolutionary dead ends... hang on...?!
 
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EnemyPartyII

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oh sorry i thought you were explaining that in nature there are animals who are designed to have homosexual sex, i see now what you are saying though.
any animal in nature that has homosexual sex is "designed" to have homosexual sex. Otherwise they wouldn't do it.
 
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Singleton

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I think there is some disparity between everyone's definitions of "gay". I think that some people do not separate sexual attraction from sexual action, which are two completely different things.
Very true.

People have engaged in sexual intercourse for reasons other than sexual attraction for hundreds of years.

Also, there are a number of lesbians that I know who have engaged in heterosexual intercourse with males in order to become pregnant.
Sexual attraction had nothing to do with it, necessity did.

There are medical intervention.routes available for homosexuals desiring to have offspring without doing it the old fashion way .
Problem solved.
 
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UnitedInChrist

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My church is offering a Lenten Study Series "Living Biblically" in preperation for Easter. Tonite there is a screening of "For the BibleTells Me So." I am only sharing this b/c I think many on these boards should witness such a documentary, and perhaps learn something. Below is a synopsis of the film from the producer:
>
>
>
>
>
> FILM SYNOPSIS
>
> Can the love between two people ever be an abomination?
> Is the chasm
> separating gays and lesbians and Christianity too wide
> to cross? Is the
> Bible an excuse to hate?
>
>
>
> Winner of the Audience Award for Best Documentary at
> the Seattle
> International Film Festival, Dan Karslake's
> provocative, entertaining
> documentary brilliantly reconciles homosexuality and
> Biblical scripture,
> and in the process reveals that Church-sanctioned anti-
> gay bias is based
> almost solely upon a significant (and often malicious)
> misinterpretation
> of the Bible. As the film notes, most Christians live
> their lives today
> without feeling obliged to kill anyone who works on the
> Sabbath or eats
> shrimp (as a literal reading of scripture dictates).
>
>
>
> Through the experiences of five very normal, very
> Christian, very
> American families -- including those of former House
> Majority Leader
> Richard Gephardt and Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson --
> we discover
> how insightful people of faith handle the realization
> of having a gay
> child. Informed by such respected voices as Bishop
> Desmond Tutu,
> Harvard's Peter Gomes, Orthodox Rabbi Steve Greenberg
> and Reverend Jimmy
> Creech, FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO offers healing,
> clarity and
> understanding to anyone caught in the crosshairs of
> scripture and sexual
> identity.
 
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Polycarp1

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I think there is some disparity between everyone's definitions of "gay". I think that some people do not separate sexual attraction from sexual action, which are two completely different things.

Thanks for noting this; it's a point I've tried to make repeatedly, usually without success. The murdered boy held up in the OP as the example to start this thread, for instance -- apparently had a crush on the boy who shot and killed him. There's no evidence he was sexually active, just possessed of the desire to love (and probably have sex with, eventually) another boy.

This does not seem to have eliminated the hijack into the morality of gay sex acts, when the question related to the morality of the orientation, especially in view of the fact that it's effectively unchangeable by personal effort.

If you were truly analyzing the passages without a need for justification then you would'nt call them clobber passages, since they don't clobber anything in itself.

By way of reference, the use of the term "clobber passages" with reference to the Scripture verses usually quoted in relation to discussions of homosexuality, is not intended to imply that the verses themselves "clobber" but that they are the ones used to "clobber" gay people by those who seek to condemn them or their putative sins.
 
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Amaryllismayfly

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The truth is, it is irrelevant, homosexuals don't represent the whole population. The point being, if all homosexuals acted on their orientation the race would not die out. What if every couple didn't want to have kids? that would be the same thing, a partnership without procreation = your same flawed logic spelled out (minus the accidental procreation).




One group does not represent the population at large, and you can't make a minority into a majority argument.
the truth is irrevelent.................wow
 
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Amaryllismayfly

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davedjy; I hope both of your quotes showed up. I would never condemn a heterosexual couple for not having kids by choice. CHOICE You are debating choice and orientation by your example you gave. According to the rules of the debate I am not equating homosexuality to an emotional choice.

I am proving that evolution has not evolved the physical body to match the emotions of an homosexual.
 
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Archer93

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davedjy; I hope both of your quotes showed up. I would never condemn a heterosexual couple for not having kids by choice. CHOICE You are debating choice and orientation by your example you gave. According to the rules of the debate I am not equating homosexuality to an emotional choice.

I am proving that evolution has not evolved the physical body to match the emotions of an homosexual.

You condemn a homosexual couple because they can't, short of medical intervention, produce a child to which they both contribute 50% of the genetic material because they can't do that, but do not condemn a heterosexual couple who could do that but choose not to.
Is that basically it?

Also- evolution has not designed the physical body to match the emotions of a homosexual- well, just looking at m/m intercourse- have you ever heard of the prostate gland? It's the male G-spot, is located in the anus, and is the main reason why many gay men like anal sex.
 
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