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Can anyone deny this history of persecution?

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Aaron Lindahl

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there remain inaccuracies in your list, which are as yet unsourced; for agreement to be reached, accuracy should be pursued - how can one agree to affirming what is unsubstantiated or false ?

What inaccuracies? The history I posted is known by any student of classical or early church history. Are you honestly going to deny basic historical fact, and in addition to that, ignore the points I just brought up in the last post?
 
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Thekla

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What inaccuracies? The history I posted is known by any student of classical or early church history. Are you honestly going to deny basic historical fact, and in addition to that, ignore the points I just brought up in the last post?


I have given citations (from academic sources or citing academic sources) previously in the thread that demonstrate the inaccuracy of some of your statements/claims; that I am now asked to assume there are no other errors in your list is asking a bit much
 
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Thekla

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... and I completely disagree with you on that. That said, history aside, do you deny or are going to avoid the truth of the Biblical points I just made a few seconds ago?


history was the foundation of your op; you may disagree with me, but I have provided credible sources and you have provided no sources.

Before we proceed, please source and verify the authenticity of your claims that are "known by any student of classical or early church history" (post 22) as I have demonstrated that this additional claim is not true.
 
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Aaron Lindahl

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Before we proceed, please tell me if the following brutality, evil, persecution, torture, murder, and attempted genocide engendered under the name of Christ and the Church affects your conscience at all, and if you are truly going to attempt to deny that the following happened:

305-306 – Council of Elvira (now Granada, Spain). This council was representative of the Western European Church and among other things, it barred homosexuals the right to Communion.

314 – Council of Ancyra (now Ankara, Turkey). This council was representative of the Eastern European Church and it excluded the Sacraments for 15 years to unmarried men under the age of 20 who were caught in homosexual acts, and excluded the man for life if he was married and over the age of 50.

342 – Under advice from their bishops, the first law against same-sex marriage was promulgated by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans.

390 – Under advice from their bishops, Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public.

498 – In spite of the laws against homosexuality, the Christian emperors continued to collect taxes on male prostitutes until the reign of Anastasius I, who finally abolishes the tax.

529 – The Christian emperor Justinian I (527–565) made homosexuals a public scapegoat for problems such as "famines,earthquakes, and pestilences."

589 – The Visigothic kingdom in Spain, is converted from Arianism to Catholicism. This conversion leads to a revision of the law to conform to those of Catholic countries. These revisions include provisions for the persecution of gays and Jews.

693 – In Iberia, Visigothic ruler Egica of Hispania and Septimania, demanded that a Church council confront the occurrence of homosexuality in the Kingdom. The Sixteenth Council of Toledo issued a statement in response, which was adopted by Egica, stating that homosexual acts be punished by castration, exclusion from Communion, hair shearing, one hundred stripes of the lash, and banishment into exile.

1120 – Baldwin II of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, convenes the Council of Nablus to address the vices within the Kingdom. The Council calls for the burning of individuals who perpetually commit homosexual acts.

1179 – The Third Lateran Council of Rome issues a decree for the excommunication of homosexuals.

1232 – Pope Gregory IX starts the Inquisition in the Italian City-States. Some cities called for banishment and/or amputation as punishments for 1st- and 2nd-offending homosexuals and burning for the 3rd or habitual offenders.

1260 – In France, first-offending homosexuals lost their testicles, second offenders lost their member, and third offenders were burned. Women caught in same-sex acts could be mutilated and executed as well.

1265 – Thomas Aquinas argues that homosexuality is second only to murder in the ranking of sins.

1283 – The French Civil Code dictated that convicted homosexuals should not only be burned but also that their property would be forfeited.

1370s – Jan van Aersdone and Willem Case were two men executed in Antwerp in the 1370s. The charge against them was same gender intercourse. Aersdone and Case stand out because records of their names have survived.

1432 – In Florence the first organization specifically intended to prosecute homosexuality is established, the "Night Officials", which over the next 70 years arrest about 10,000 men and youths.

1451 – Pope Nicholas V enables the papal Inquisition to persecute men who practice homosexuality.

1475 – In Peru, a chronicle written under the Capac Yupanqui government describes the persecution of homosexuals with public burnings and destruction of homes (a practice usually reserved for conquered tribes).

1483 – The Spanish Inquisition begins. Homosexuals were stoned, castrated, and burned. Between 1540 and 1700, more than 1,600 people were prosecuted for homosexuality.

1532 – Holy Roman Empire makes homosexuality punishable by death.

1533 – King Henry VIII passes the Buggery Act 1533 making anal intercourse punishable by death throughout England.

1620 – Brandenburg-Prussia criminalizes homosexuality, making it punishable by death.

1721 – Catherina Margaretha Linck is executed for lesbianism in Germany.

1836 – The last known execution for homosexuality in Great Britain. James Pratt and John Smith are hanged at Newgate prison, London after being caught together in private lodgings.

1895 – The trial of Oscar Wilde results in his being prosecuted under the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 for "gross indecency" for having sex with other males, and is sentenced to two years hard labor in prison, ruining his health.

1903 – In New York on 21 February 1903, New York police conducted the first United States recorded raid on a gay bathhouse, the Ariston Hotel Baths. 26 men were arrested and 12 brought to trial on sodomy charges; 7 men received sentences ranging from 4 to 20 years in prison.

1945 – Upon the liberation of Nazi concentration camps by Allied forces, those who were interned for homosexuality, and who miraculously survived.. are not freed, but required to serve out the full term of their sentences under Paragraph 175.

1954 – June 7th –Mathematical computer genius and WW2 hero Alan Turing commits suicide by cyanide poisoning, 18 months after being given a choice between two years in prison or libido-reducing hormone treatment for a year as a punishment for homosexuality.

I list this history and the historical persecution of gays so that we as Christians never again allow the desire to condemn others over their sins to become something evil and destructive.
 
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Thekla

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credible claims are accompanied by credible sourcing and appropriate context; in the era of the internet, it should not be too hard for you to link sources, and provide context.

(For example, item #1, the Council of Elvira: was this Council accepted by all Christendom, just in the west, or only locally; did the ban (accumulating the canons from all sources accepted by those at Elvira) apply just to homosexual activity or all form of non-marital sexual activity. Further, what allowance have you made for the differences in conceptualizing homosexuality in the 4th century and at present ?)
 
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Aaron Lindahl

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By the very fact you want to quibble about the red-herring of 'context' in this matter, while obviously not upset about it at all (as if centuries of persecution, torture and murder done to people in the name of Christ have to be understood by 'context'), makes me know that unfortunately the following verse is so true today.. consciences that have become truly seared and non-existant.

1 Timothy 4:1-2

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron."
 
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Thekla

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By the very fact you want to quibble about the red-herring of 'context' in this matter, while obviously not upset about it at all (as if centuries of persecution, torture and murder done to people in the name of Christ have to be understood by 'context', and apparently aren't upsetting at all), makes me know that unfortunately the following verse is so true today.. consciences that have become truly seared and non-existant.

1 Timothy 4:1-2

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron."

False witness is not a red herring - in fact, one can consult Scripture on the matter.

Please note that all forms of sex outside of marriage were disallowed, and carried ecclesial consequences. As some of your former points applied also to adultery (heterosexual), presenting the matter as one directed onlyat homosexual activity is misleading.

Further, the canons (at least in the east) are guidelines that are applied in each particular case by the spiritual father; thus, the canons do not represent individual actions vis a vis each person.

Finally, on my last point, it should be noted for those who are not familiar with history, homosexuality referred to actions (not orientation) thus the guidelines are not the equivalent of "thought policing".
 
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Aaron Lindahl

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Hmm... maybe instead we can go into great detail and philosophical debate on whether the 4th page of the 3rd journal of Josef Mengele's notes on how to extract the eyeballs of twin children with the least amount of screaming were hand-written by him, or by an assistant, and under what context they were written... and in so doing, completely ignore and sweep under the rug the fact of the torture and deaths of the children themselves. That's what this conversation seems like to me.

That said, I think we have nothing further to discuss, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on everything.
 
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ebia

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It was in the title. My question is can anyone honestly deny the history of persecution inflicted upon gay people under the name of Christ?
That seems to be a loaded question.
 
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ebia

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Fascinating.
There's no doubt a worthy discussion in there trying to get get out (though one that would likely run up against the forum rules). But the way you've worded the question doesn't lead to it.
 
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Thekla

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Hmm... maybe instead we can go into great detail and philosophical debate on whether the 4th page of the 3rd journal of Josef Mengele's notes on how to extract the eyeballs of twin children with the least amount of screaming were hand-written by him, or by an assistant, and under what context they were written... and in so doing, completely ignore and sweep under the rug the fact of the torture and deaths of the children themselves. That's what this conversation seems like to me.

That said, I think we have nothing further to discuss, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on everything.

That's a bit silly.

The problem is this: you present these things as happening without further exploring the context and actual incidence of actions you assert (without sources).

So, concerning fornication and the response - this was not exclusively a matter of homosexual activity.

Concerning the matter of taxing - the law was on the books (inherited from pagan Rome), but was it enforced and why was it kept on the books ? (By the time of Justinian, the Byzantine Empire had an extensive social welfare system which at some point included free hostels for those leaving prostitution; did the law thus serve any positive actions ?)

On the matter of burning, this too survived from pagan Roman law; how often was it enforced ? It is my understanding that among the Jews, some punishments were meant to communicate the severity of the offense but were not often enforced (ie the Jewish people did not routinely put to death unruly children). The frequency of the utilization of the law describes then the purpose of having the law 'on the books'.

As for the matter of Justinian and "blaming disaster on homosexuals", the matter was a warning and not unlike the Jewish understanding (ie inherited). Thus Midrash explains the Flood as the direct result of the trespass of sexual morality. (You might, in your travels 'round the internet boards, ask about this from a Rabbi or on a Jewish discussion board.)

On the matter of the Council of Elvira - it was a western Council and is not accepted in the east (this should be obvious, as we have married priests).


Without context, little is learned and nought can be confirmed.
 
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Aaron Lindahl

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There's no doubt a worthy discussion in there trying to get get out (though one that would likely run up against the forum rules). But the way you've worded the question doesn't lead to it.

Understood and hope you have a Merry Christmas.
 
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~Anastasia~

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It seems reasonable to me that if you are going to claim that a 15-year ban from communion was imposed for homosexual activity represents persecution of homosexuals ...

Then it becomes relevant to know whether or not a 15-year ban on communion was also imposed on a person for committing adultery, for example.

If so, perhaps the ban on communion represents the consequences of extra-marital sexual activity, rather than homosexual persecution.

FWIW, I don't agree that those with SSA (same sex attraction) should be "persecuted, tormented, or murdered" nor should anyone be "rejecting, condemning, and making other people feel like dirt or worthless".

People with SSA are just like the rest of us ... human being who struggle against sin. It doesn't matter what sin, really, we all (ought to) have the same goal - to overcome sin and live godly lives, drawing closer to Him.


But I do see some problems with your "historical list". Doubtless there WAS persecution involved, and that is wong. But whatever your point, it would help prove your point if you used appropriate evidences, which would take effort in evaluating each charge.
 
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Aaron Lindahl

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Thekla, not silly at all, and I told you, I don't want to talk to someone anymore who brings up 'taxes' when I've listed over 1000 years of torture, murder, and persecution.

That's why the above comment I made is not silly at all. People who have a conscience don't quibble about taxes, when we're talking about people's genitals being burned or cut off.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thekla, not silly at all, and I told you, I don't want to talk to someone anymore who brings up 'taxes' when I've listed over 1000 years of torture, murder, and persecution.

That's why the above comment I made is not silly at all. People who have a conscience don't quibble about taxes, when we're talking about people's genitals being burned or cut off.

Please... leave me alone since I truly feel non-Christian vibes from you and respectfully ask you to stop talking to me since it's more than obvious we're simply going to have to agree to disagree and come from different planets in thought and morality, so there's no use in further discussion. There are plenty of other threads on here you can go on with people like yourself.

Just a point you might wish to be careful on ... I do believe it is against forum rules to imply someone who self-identifies as Christian is not ... :(
 
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Thekla

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Thekla, not silly at all, and I told you, I don't want to talk to someone anymore who brings up 'taxes' when I've listed over 1000 years of torture, murder, and persecution.

That's why the above comment I made is not silly at all. People who have a conscience don't quibble about taxes, when we're talking about people's genitals being burned or cut off.

Please... leave me alone since I truly feel non-Christian vibes from you and respectfully ask you to stop talking to me since it's more than obvious we're simply going to have to agree to disagree and come from different planets in thought and morality, so there's no use in further discussion. There are plenty of other threads on here you can go on with people like yourself.

Who are "people like myself" ?

I am not quibbling about taxes - I have responded to numerous items on the list, given corrections with appropriate citations and have asked numerous questions as I am trying to ascertain context and thus establish the facts of the matter, and have discussed more than just taxes (and taxes were the purview of the state - not the Church - in the Byzantine Empire, likewise all laws and punishments.) So, for example, re: canons which refer to fornication, why do you not include in your lament adulterers ? Are they less human ?

I've only started dealing with the list - we haven't yet covered over 1,000 years. I asked you to provide further information, and you have not yet done so. (It's not my list, so the onus should not only be on me to verify and provide context for what are your claims.)

If we are to have a reasoned discussion, we need to establish the facts of the matter -- otherwise, we are resorting to slander in order to make a point.

It's a different sort of finger-pointing witch hunt and I truly thought that was the problem that concerned you re: homosexuality.

Why engage in a wrong when claiming to combat one ?
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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ebia said:
There's no doubt a worthy discussion in there trying to get get out (though one that would likely run up against the forum rules). But the way you've worded the question doesn't lead to it.

I'm pretty sure that there isn't. I asked him point blank at the beginning of the forum what his point was, and he plainly stated that the whole purpose of the thread was to whine about how Christendom has been mean to butt pirates...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAlTOfl9F2w
 
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