Can anyone be saved through living righteously?

[Saint Steven]

No, it isn't. There may be other concepts about an intermediate place in the afterlife, but Purgatory is a particular explanation with all sorts of specific functions and etc., and it was invented by a Roman Catholic council in the 15th century.


The belief is that this was Paradise, not Purgatory or Heaven or Hell.

I was writing about the realm of the dead, not Purgatory per se. Why would "the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah..." be in Paradise?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Certainly the RCC gave it the name Purgatory. Notice the root word is purge. And they define it differently than the realm of the dead. But the principle is the same.

Before Christ went to Paradise, he visited the realm of the dead where he made proclamation to "the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah..."

 

[Albion]

I was writing about the realm of the dead, not Purgatory per se.

And I was trying to get readers to realize that the two, which were described interchangeably in some earlier posts, are not at all the same.

 

[Saint Steven]

And I was trying to get readers to realize that the two, which were described interchangeably in some earlier posts, are not at all the same.

Well, that seems to be an exaggeration. Not at all the same? They are both a holding place in the afterlife that is separate from heaven. How is that "not at all the same"?

Saint Steven said: ↑
I was writing about the realm of the dead, not Purgatory per se.

 

[Albion]

Well, that seems to be an exaggeration. Not at all the same?

All right. They both refer to places in the afterlife. But that's about where the similarity ends.

They are both a holding place in the afterlife that is separate from heaven. How is that "not at all the same"?

Well, for one thing, Purgatory as defined by the Catholic Church is NOT a "holding place." It is a place of purgation, a place or state of being that has been described as just like Hell except that it isn't forever.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I was writing about the realm of the dead, not Purgatory per se.

But Purgatory came up in the thread, and that is what I was responding to.

 

[Saint Steven]

But Purgatory came up in the thread, and that is what I was responding to.

I appreciate that. Thanks. Your post was informative.
My understanding was that Purgatory was a holding place in the afterlife that is separate from heaven. The same as the realm of the dead, which is biblical. (appears 29x in the NIV)

 

[sparow]

I was writing about the realm of the dead, not Purgatory per se. Why would "the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah..." be in Paradise?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Certainly the RCC gave it the name Purgatory. Notice the root word is purge. And they define it differently than the realm of the dead. But the principle is the same.

Before Christ went to Paradise, he visited the realm of the dead where he made proclamation to "the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah..."

I remember it but I cannot find the scripture referring to the imprisoned spirits.

 

[sparow]

There are none which meet the requirement of perfection. The problem of sin is like Coronavirus. No matter how unaffected one might be, ... you can still pass it on to others. The SOLUTION ... is to take the vaccine (let's conjecture). If you don't take the vaccine, ... you are a threat to everyone around you.

Of course, for some who truly desired the things of God, it may be that there have been confabs about which we are not aware ...

one who didn't take the vaccine should only be a threat to tthose who didn't take the vaccine.

 

[Saint Steven]

I remember it but I cannot find the scripture referring to the imprisoned spirits.

1 Peter 3:19 NIV (see below) Thanks.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[A_Thinker]

one who didn't take the vaccine should only be a threat to tthose who didn't take the vaccine.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work out that way ... with COVID ... or with sin ...

 

[Basil the Great]

I was looking at this passage in the Bible:

I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes, naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.’ “The righteous will then answer him, ‘When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we ever see you a stranger and welcome you in our homes, or naked and clothe you? When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’ The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these members of my family, you did it for me!’

Will people like Gandhi, Tha Dali Lama, and other people who live to serve in soup kitchens and homeless shelters dedicating their lives to peace be given eternal life?

I am not a Catholic, like yourself. However, I do agree with current Catholic teaching on this subject, which appears to indicate that the answer to your question is indeed yes..., at least in some cases.

 

[Saint Steven]

I am not a Catholic, like yourself. However, I do agree with current Catholic teaching on this subject, which appears to indicate that the answer to your question is indeed yes..., at least in some cases.

This is very interesting. As a Protestant, we have been hammered with the idea that salvation is by grace, not by works. But this passage seems to indicate that is not always the case. Some, however, try to get it back "on track" with Protestant thinking by saying the good works here in this passage are a result of righteousness, and the righteousness is a result of grace, not works. I question whether those in the passage are even Christians. They could be pagans caring for the needs of those in the church. What do you see here?

 

[Basil the Great]

This is very interesting. As a Protestant, we have been hammered with the idea that salvation is by grace, not by works. But this passage seems to indicate that is not always the case. Some, however, try to get it back "on track" with Protestant thinking by saying the good works here in this passage are a result of righteousness, and the righteousness is a result of grace, not works. I question whether those in the passage are even Christians. They could be pagans caring for the needs of those in the church. What do you see here?

Someone here on CF once told me that the passage in Matthew about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked was only intended for the Jews that Jesus was speaking to and not to future Christians. Well.... any Christian who believes such is the case and therefore does not believe that he/she is obligated to feed the hungry and clothe the naked is taking a big risk with his/her salvation.

 

[sawdust]

Someone here on CF once told me that the passage in Matthew about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked was only intended for the Jews that Jesus was speaking to and not to future Christians. Well.... any Christian who believes such is the case and therefore does not believe that he/she is obligated to feed the hungry and clothe the naked is taking a big risk with his/her salvation.

The risk they are taking is character development not their salvation from death. If they are believers the Lord has made them alive in spirit and His child. He does not turn around and annul that because some believers are idiots and fail to learn all they can and should. Their failure to grow to Christlike maturity will ensure they will be denied rewards because you don't give power to 2yos and that is effectively (spiritually speaking), what immature believers are. The word of God is spirit and life, not something to be taken lightly, yet too often believers reject the plain spoken word to replace it with their own understanding because they fail to persevere and come to the knowledge of truth.

Salvation from death is instant and irrevocable. Salvation from our erroneous thinking is a lifetime pursuit till we reach maturity.

 

[Navair2]

Will people like Gandhi, Tha Dali Lama, and other people who live to serve in soup kitchens and homeless shelters dedicating their lives to peace be given eternal life?

Regrettably, no.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." ( John 3:36 ).

" Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." ( John 14:6 ).

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

 

[Fervent]

This is very interesting. As a Protestant, we have been hammered with the idea that salvation is by grace, not by works. But this passage seems to indicate that is not always the case. Some, however, try to get it back "on track" with Protestant thinking by saying the good works here in this passage are a result of righteousness, and the righteousness is a result of grace, not works. I question whether those in the passage are even Christians. They could be pagans caring for the needs of those in the church. What do you see here?

That's one of the things I've kicked at with my protestant upbringing. The degree to which "faith" is watered down to a simple profession of belief among a lot of protestant circles is partly to blame, as protestant theology usually makes it clear that the actions will be present in one who is saved. The distinction between justification and sanctification as a hard-line has caused many issues in protestant churches, especially as it has grown beyond the initial rejection of institutional penance and the treasury of merits as religious works of salvation into a rejection of any sort of demand for righteous living.

With the passage the use of sheeps and goats is a telling sign since they were largely indistinguishable in those parts of world with a slight tail variation being the tell-tale sign. This means the two groups are almost identical being separated, which increases the likelihood He's distinguishing between confessing believers separating out the genuine from the fraudulent.

Ultimately, those who are saved are the righteous but it is God who makes them righteous not their own efforts. What it boils down to is a false interpretation of righteousness as something you do, when in fact righteousness is all about believing God.