can angels be seen?

[dms1972]

I'd think I would still be afraid to start with, even when they say this. :-(

I have never had such an experience, but the fear spoken seems to be a sort of awe.

The show I spoke of is sheer TV entertainment, not bad its just uplift, about a guy having a 'angel' friend he can turn to in difficulties.

Those whose accounts of angels I respect say men and angels are not actually suited to keep company - takes too much of a toll on human beings.

Try and not let such stories if you come across them drive you into skepticism.

 

[tturt]

These shows do get some folks thinking about angels, The Bible, Yeshua.

Have you seen Roma Downey from Touched by An Angel interviewed about her faith in Yahweh?

 

[dms1972]

No I haven't seen her interview, I may look it up.

50 years ago a good many people would have been skeptical (including a good few christians) of talk about angels, especially any talk of 'seeing' one. I am not a disbeliever in the 'supernatural' but mere belief in angels, the supernatural, etc. is not christian faith. I cannot see how photos of angels would strengthen faith, it seems to indicate a real misunderstanding of what faith is and how people come to faith. Doesn't Galatians warn about beginning in the spirit and ending in the flesh?

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

While some people may 'see' ie. intuit the presence of an angel, and I have read what I believe to be authentic accounts of instances of that, I don't believe in literal angels with feathery wings. Any time the Bible uses that language it is symbolic language, in my view.

Have you read any of CS Lewis's Ransom Trilogy - Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, That Hideous Strength. He has some very interesting speculations on Angels, and literary depictions in these three stories. I think they draw far more on the Bible and theology than the modern 'angels' in TV shows, or the cute angels of Renaissance art.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

TV shows like Highway to Heaven and others seem to give the impression that angels can be walking around looking just like human beings, and interacting with people.

What are angels? If one is near will one see it? What sort of seeing is it. Can they be photographed?



What does the Bible say on this?

Edit: was responding on my phone and did not notice I had previously responded to this post.

I have dealt a lot with angels. They can disguise themselves as ordinary human beings. Before I was shown that, one transfigured before me changing from the form of a human man to 'one like a son of man'. As the Angel of Jesus appeared to John in Revelation with brow as fires and eyes wet red like coal burning.

There are various verses, but they are said to ultimately not have form, as God does not.

They blend in exceedingly well, and as undercover human agents can do, they can have extensive legends (cover). So, not just homeless people.

They do have kind of a halo or aura, and their eyes can shine with an unnatural light, which goes beyond what is possible by mere reflection.

I did not know some around me were angels until later, but I did view them as being embued by the Spirit in a miraculous way.

It is very likely you have seen and dealt with angels, without knowing it, as a Christian.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

You don't need to be able to explain everything to have faith. Please don't take offence at this , but you are asserting a lot of stuff and some of it just doesn't fly (pardon the pun), it is coming over as free-wheeling speculation. For that reason I would urge you not to believe everything you think

Okay, no offense taken, though it is always difficult to hear people dismissing matters right off.

I am posting what I posted based on experience, and hard evidence which they showed me.

... reading my original post...

I would say it was lengthy, and made some very hard to believe claims, but I also state quite honestly, that the more I have learned the more I have learned how much I do not know.

I have even more unbelievable claims to make then what I stated. For instance, angels can be posters on this forum.

That is, "believe it or not", not speculation, but I actually used to communicate with some angels in this manner. On this forum, on this site, anyway, on the old dreams and visions subforum.

I would work with them during the day, come home, and they would post under various identities here. Most of the communication was heavy on metaphor, very little could be understood by someone who does not know me, or does not know them.

But, yes, it is not speculation.

Just as they can conjure up clothes, with rips in the jeans and all, realistic human faces, appropriate accents in their speech, so can they conjure up IP address and email systems...

I certainly can understand this is a very difficult thing to believe, in fact, it is impossible. And I did not believe these things without strong evidence my own self. God really drew it out over many years, too, while showing me these things.

To this day, I do not know why, or what any of this - specifically - means.

I can speculate on that. I have theories. But, I do not have hard and certain facts on that.

There are many areas where I can only speculate, and then there are questions I have had answered. And answers which have only raised so very many more questions...

As for proof, I really do not offer any. That is up to God, not my own self. I do not have any kind of magical summoning ritual, and they treat dispensing such evidence as like carefully investing most precious gold.

I am acutely aware that evidence for many is not forthcoming.

But, I can certainly point out: why would I lie? I do not and will not link to any website. Maybe I will do a blog here, eventually, but I do not easily give out my real identity. I certainly do not easily dispense such material using my real identity, because people can not easily believe it.

I was not even planning to come back to this thread, and missed that I had originally posted a response to it. Usually, when I visit a site, I will soon leave, very often without ever getting to know anyone I do not already know.

Which leaves, what, insanity? Delusional?

Sure.

But, I do have one edge. Quite simply, I am telling the truth and put tremendous effort into accuracy. Which means the Spirit will confirm me and what I am saying.

Considering how hard this is to believe, I can see where someone can struggle with it and find doubts inside themselves. I have been there my own self. But, I also know, that ultimately the doubts do not stick to truth. And sooner or later God proves such matters.

The question of Angels is one that we have not had disclosed in any detail in Scripture.

I don't have any fixed theory. Though I think we cannot see them ordinarily.

There are quite a number of verses, but these are very easy to find and research. Some of the more difficult passages are not so easy to find, as they, too, express very hard to believe matters which readers tend to gloss over when they read.

Such as the time God sent a lying spirit into the mouths of 700 prophets to persuade King Ahab to go to his death...

You probably will want a verse for that.

If you do not already know it, I do not mind providing it.


I had a lot of theories. God let me go in ignorance and questioning, on several very major matters in my life regarding these things, for a very long time. Multiple times over my life.

I have a lot of theories on matters I do not know regarding these things.

On matters I know, which are but a few, some are extremely hard to believe -- impossible, is my conjecture, without evidence. Maybe you can believe based on some abstract intellectual level Maybe you can understand it on that level. But, really believing? Not happening without hard evidence, as I have been given.

Why do I ever even post such a thing? Well, for one, I can not talk about it. But, under a pseudo-anonymous name. If people do not believe me, I do not lose anything. By talking about it, it relieves the pressure of keeping such massive secrets, even though it is one I share with these angels. And with God.

I doubt God has a ministry for me even in the future directly regarding these matters. That is speculation. My current running theory on that, is likely, somehow, God will have me use this information in some as for yet unforeseen way.

From my perspective, angels can speak and give messages much better then me, so I do not see the point.

Scripturally they exist and people in the Bible have encountered them in various manners. We can perhaps also say some angels are engaged in adoration, based on Isaiah's vision. The rest, for instance them having wings I take as imagery. Not mere imagery, but meaningful imagery, which tells us about God.

Angels having wings is not an article of faith for me. I don't need to see one to accept they may be active and that without my awareness.

A lot of people outside of the Bible have experienced them. The angels I talked with on this site, years ago, had an enormous number of posts, btw.

Very likely angels are in your life, and you simply do not yet know this.

That is theory. Kind of going by Scripture, and by the fact that I am not so unique, except in my ability to "read code".

(Which, its' self, is but a gift from God, though they stated they were going to have to "clone" that -- whatever that means. I do not know.)

The default reaction is to not believe, not to even begin to entertain the idea that I am telling the truth. What amazes me is that no one else called me out, and one poster even noted "informative" on the post.

Again, I am ashamed to say, many components here of what I am saying, I did not believe. But, I was also shown, I could not believe. That God perfectly was aware of where my confidence level was on every matter, and perfectly was able to deliver evidence that would persuade me.

God let me go, as I will say again, years, multiple times, on some of these major claims.

So, a lot of pacing, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of theories and theory bashing. I have tried to whittle it all down since then, into what has been absolutely proven, and delineate on what I do not know for sure.

"IRL", FYI, I am not some madman. I am a mid forties father of four who earns a low six figure income in a highly technical area of computer security. I have a number of impressive accomplishments in my field, though I am not famous, I have worked with 'as famous as people get' in the field... and can prove that, with my linkedin. For instance.

Been in the media many times in my profession, back in the days when I found security bugs in major applications.

I do try and give with such a post, but it is kind of a message in the bottle. Maybe someone human can believe because this comes from another human. Maybe they can consider the possibility as being true for more then five seconds or minutes. Maybe they can really think on it. Maybe, even, God will confirm what I am saying.

I do believe there is power in belief, in this way, and it is what we are called to do. That said, again, God has not told me to go and tell anyone this. But, God has also not shied me away from telling people, here and there. Mostly, I simply do this to refine my understanding of these very, very strange matters.

Finally, some of the statements I made, no, do not have similar claims in Scripture. But Scripture does not say a whole lot on the subject. If you are wondering this was a major stumbling block for me and a major reason I did not believe. Persistent identities for long periods of time? Elaborate covers that go far beyond simply that of a homeless person with no background?

I did not realize I was simply putting rules in place there for what angels can and can not do, by doing this. Which is entirely absurd.

The Bible does say that there are many matters not explained, as David said, 'too wonderful to know', and numerous hints at far more wonderous things to come, some of which are unable to be believed.

I initially thought this was unethical for angels to do, so I did not believe. Not just because the Bible did not go that far.

God showed me how I found this was perfectly ethical for spies and undercover cops to do, so why the double standard for the far more powerful agents of the far more powerful Kingdom?

I can point out many things in Scripture which are not often - if ever - deeply considered. Such as how God 'controls the kings of the earth'. God very accurately - though in metaphor - predicted the kingdoms to come, after Nebuchadnezzar, to Rome (at least). But only gave a few examples where He showed how He did this.

I have certainly come across many accounts of angels and God in my readings of history over the years, both in Christian nations and amongst Christians - everyday and famous - and even pagan leaders. Of course, with pagan leaders, they did not know who it was who was controlling them. Such as the 'first emperor of China' or Julius Caesar...

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Nobody on this planet has seen an angel or any other supernatural phenomena and can prove it, just like NASA with all its billions of pounds and super telescopes and deep space probes has no proof of life beyond our world. Its make believe until there is proof.
Its unprovable because it does not exsist, just like faith healing and talking to the spirits, its fantasy.
I'm not saying it has never exsisted on this earth as I wasn't around thousands of years ago and the concept of a great and mighty God or carver of the universe is definitely a possibility.
You can read as many verses in the bible as you like but it still doesn't prove anything.

Risen through Christ

This is something I come across a lot, that nothing happens which does not happen before a consensus or peer approved scientists. One time, even, when I posted somewhere I saw "God" in the transfiguration I saw, a poster demanded that I bring God to a council of scientists to answer questions for them, so they might agree with his existence. Lol!



So... yeah.

From my experience with "the supernatural" - to use a popular term - it is as Arthur C Clarke well wrote (and I have known an angel to re-quote this): 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.'

I can not find the quote online, but I recently heard an excellent new one which points out that 'science is the least of the unknown, the infinite, the smallest surface'. Something to that line.

Considering how conspiracy theory ridden the world is these days, I am personally only amused at skepticism. I fully believe skeptics simply do not have the evidence I have. It is quite a simple equation.

As I noted in another post, I read a lot, and over the decades have certainly come across many instances of what I find to be plausible claims of angels and miracles in autobiographical material of the great and small and unknown alike.

A lot of the claims I find perfectly believable, but that is another matter. Otherwise, a lot of the claims I find in the mainstream - left or right, and any other direction :/ - not so plausible.

But, of course, 'if a tree falls in the forest, it makes a sound, even if there is no one to hear it'. All of us have some matters which we have personal evidence for, and do not share it, nor can we.

We very often rely on testimonies there.

Truth is we all have a lot of matters we have no evidence for besides our own eyewitness. The problem is, most of these matters simply are believable and typical. But, many even with the most mundane of person might be difficult to believe, even if it has no supernatural claim attached to it.

One of my favorite examples here is the fact that I work in computer security. I tell taxi cab drivers and convenience store clerks, and other such strangers I might converse with, I am a "professional hacker", clarifying that "a good guy hacker". Using that term, though I do not illegally hack anything, nor even hack for the government foreign systems with a warrant. I find security vulnerabilities on systems I am authorized to find them on.

Saying I am a "computer security researcher" has little to no understanding with them, so I use a term they can understand.

This has next to zero currency with such folks, and they readily believe me.

But, if I try the same anonymously on a security forum, no dice.

I do it on linkedin? Where anyone can hit on my resume? Dice. Evidence at resume.

So, it is interesting. Because people are so hypocritical in this way. I am sure, my own self, included, at times. Though, likely far less so by now, as I have for so long lived in a world of many impossible things, in a life as yet hidden.

Do I not exist until I give evidence of my existence? Is my writing not enough? Am I not accomplished, say, in that field, where it does have currency, until I give evidence? Of course not. In their mind, I am not or may not be. But, that certainly does not remove my accomplishments as if by magic.

Granted, admittedly, to me, it is nothing. Only time you ever see hackers with glory is when they are engaged in the supernatural, such as "Mr Robot" or "The Matrix". Reality is, it is a mind numbing job to find security vulnerabilities in major products. A great act of will, yes, but nobody can make an interesting movie from it. It is akin to accounting, with no dash of lion taming.

A bit more fun then programming accounting software.

 

[dms1972]

Thanks for your replies.

I can only take it that its a matter of belief for some, and that some people here believe quite strongly

But there seems to be a danger if one believes every story posted on the internet. I wonde if some people are perhaps more likely to interpret an ordinary event (being helped by someone) as that being an angel in disguise. I can't prove its not, but we only know a few details each in these incidents, if we knew more it might appear different.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I do not disagree with your assessment. I am just some guy on the internet. Where is video (though that can be faked)... and I certainly am not going to ask someone to come on here and confirm what I have said, nor even the Spirit, unless you have a 'need to know'. You may not.

(And, of course, what good would it do to get an angel to come on here and confirm what I said, anyway. I have not been told to tell others of these matters. I only post, because feedback is useful, and in general, we are asked to answer questions if and where we have answers. Go the extra mile.)

I have not been told not to tell anyone, so I am free to discuss, but I also no there is a general "need to know" principle. Not as the human government has that principle per se, in this, but simply to not tell people much more then what they need to know.

Frankly, you just happened to ask the right question, at the right time. And, frankly, your statement about the impossibility of authenticating my legitimacy is very timely, as I just got done electronic signing some online loan documents. (For that, how did I get authenticated online? Same drill, answer some questions only the person with the SSN would know which banks have access to, then electronic initialing and signing via adobe.)

 

[dms1972]

I have wondered about this for a long time, since hearing from a neighbour about someone who had been helped in a difficult situation by two people and they said they believed these people to have been angels. My response when I hear this mixed, and I cannot resolve it because of course its someone elses experience. Should I then believe?

Its interesting because a modern minded person I would say would not believe that it all, just as they don't believe in ghosts etc.

But postmodern minded are more ready to believe it is possible.

But is postmodern the same as a biblical worldview? I don't think it quite is the same.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I have wondered about this for a long time, since hearing from a neighbour about someone who had been helped in a difficult situation by two people and they said they believed these people to have been angels. My response when I hear this mixed, and I cannot resolve it because of course its someone elses experience. Should I then believe?

Its interesting because a modern minded person I would say would not believe that it all, just as they don't believe in ghosts etc.

But postmodern minded are more ready to believe it is possible.

But is postmodern the same as a biblical worldview? I don't think it quite is the same.

People believe what they want to believe based on their preferences. You have to change their preferences to get them to believe. No one can be forced believe, God the Father handpicks every believer. And guides them to the Son.

Today was a very remarkable day for me, after a very remarkable weekend. So, you are somebody. Who, I am wondering, indeed. As I just responded to another Christian on a different matter that I had met here, 'I wonder what God has planned for you'.

Something wonderful, I think. Well, of course. That is how God is.