Can an infant at death ever be condemned?

[GoldenKingGaze]

Regarding infant mortality, can a baby, ever be condemned? Even babies Satanist women conceive in order to abort or worse. Adolf Hitler's identical twin zygote, that may actually have happened? Christian ladies or pagan tribes women, even prostitutes, abortions and other infant mortality cases? Can any babies ever be condemned by God?

This idea is at the root of the practice of infant baptism. And the root of the error in ancient and medieval church soteriology. The errors after the first century, Augustine's, Calvin's, Arminius', Molin's...

I put forwards the idea of trusting God like a child, according to the Gospel. And the power in Christ's sacred blood, not only to wash sin away but also to prevent sin. And that we all have guardian angels.

"You must be baptized in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, or you will be lost."

1 Timothy 4:10, God the saviour of all especially those who believe.

Can innocence itself save someone? Or is it always grace, in the sacred blood and the living water, the free gift of salvation, the Holy Spirit in your heart...?

 

[HTacianas]

Regarding infant mortality, can a baby, ever be condemned? Even babies Satanist women conceive in order to abort or worse. Adolf Hitler's identical twin zygote, that may actually have happened? Christian ladies or pagan tribes women, even prostitutes, abortions and other infant mortality cases? Can any babies ever be condemned by God?

This idea is at the root of the practice of infant baptism. And the root of the error in ancient and medieval church soteriology. The errors after the first century, Augustine's, Calvin's, Arminius', Molin's...

I put forwards the idea of trusting God like a child, according to the Gospel. And the power in Christ's sacred blood, not only to wash sin away but also to prevent sin. And that we all have guardian angels.

"You must be baptized in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, or you will be lost."

1 Timothy 4:10, God the saviour of all especially those who believe.

Can innocence itself save someone? Or is it always grace, in the sacred blood and the living water, the free gift of salvation, the Holy Spirit in your heart...?

In order to be condemned you must do something worthy of condemnation. An infant is incapable of doing anything worthy of it. The Augustinian/Calvinistic view of birth into condemnation is a theological oddity. And even those who hold to it will back away from it when challenged.

 

[eleos1954]

Regarding infant mortality, can a baby, ever be condemned? Even babies Satanist women conceive in order to abort or worse. Adolf Hitler's identical twin zygote, that may actually have happened? Christian ladies or pagan tribes women, even prostitutes, abortions and other infant mortality cases? Can any babies ever be condemned by God?

This idea is at the root of the practice of infant baptism. And the root of the error in ancient and medieval church soteriology. The errors after the first century, Augustine's, Calvin's, Arminius', Molin's...

I put forwards the idea of trusting God like a child, according to the Gospel. And the power in Christ's sacred blood, not only to wash sin away but also to prevent sin. And that we all have guardian angels.

"You must be baptized in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, or you will be lost."

1 Timothy 4:10, God the saviour of all especially those who believe.

Can innocence itself save someone? Or is it always grace, in the sacred blood and the living water, the free gift of salvation, the Holy Spirit in your heart...?

Being water baptized don't save anyone ... one get's baptized as a symbol (public confession) they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior.

Babies do not know what sin is ... they have no idea about it.

Toddlers sin, and they bear Adam’s corrupt nature, but lacking the ability to understand the concept of right and wrong, they are under God’s grace

When we read about baptisms in the New Testament, we find three important aspects:

1. The people believed the good news they heard (Acts 2:41).
2. Believers were confessing their sins (Mark 1:5)
3. Baptisms were the result of repentance in the believer (Matthew 3:11, Acts 2:38).

Babies and small children have no knowledge of this.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Being water baptized don't save anyone ... one get's baptized as a symbol (public confession) they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior.

Babies do not know what sin is ... they have no idea about it.

Toddlers sin, and they bear Adam’s corrupt nature, but lacking the ability to understand the concept of right and wrong, they are under God’s grace

When we read about baptisms in the New Testament, we find three important aspects:

1. The people believed the good news they heard (Acts 2:41).
2. Believers were confessing their sins (Mark 1:5)
3. Baptisms were the result of repentance in the believer (Matthew 3:11, Acts 2:38).

Babies and small children have no knowledge of this.

Catholics believe that when parents decide on their infants baptism, and have it done, that the baby receives Christ. Otherwise if he or she dies, the old teaching was they end up in Limbo. But the current beliefs are different, and assume automatic salvation of babies.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Jesus taught that we must be holy or perfect, just as our Heavenly Father is perfect. Few can say they reached this point of grace before they died. Instead I would say, sanctification goes on, salvation goes on after we die. But we must start by receiving grace, and maybe a some start after dying. Response to grace is the key. Jesus taught us to have the Kingdom this great grace, within us, we must trust Him like little children.

Even a new born, cannot enter paradise and stay their without grace. It is like the light and air of paradise, the light of life, not just to be seen but breathed in and it surrounds and holds the person and makes them joyous and to grow in love and light... It is literally the living water we'll drink forever. And only as we grow up, might we learn to hate grace in some way. The little ones trust and take to grace easily. Their character developments is a clean slate.

Paul taught that a child born from one not sanctified can be unclean. Either way unclean or sanctified, salvation is automatic upon dying.

I doubt innocence by itself enables a permanent place in the light of life. Jesus develops their character. His blood justifies them and justice becomes their way. They will never fall.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

In order to be condemned you must do something worthy of condemnation. An infant is incapable of doing anything worthy of it. The Augustinian/Calvinistic view of birth into condemnation is a theological oddity. And even those who hold to it will back away from it when challenged.

This may be why the old Catholics thought there must be a Limbo. Nothing to condemn them for, but no salvation received yet. Even someone innocent must become perfect or holy to remain in Heaven.

 

[Dan2255]

Let me give you an account of king David. He had sin and had an adulterous relationship that produced a child out of wedlock. He tried to cover it up by having the husband to come off the battlefield to lay with his wife but he refused to. David had him sent to the front of the battlefield to be killed. The child was born and the Lord told David for what he had done that the child would be taken from him. The baby was born sick and about to die. David fell to the floor pleading that the lord would not take his son. His servants wondered why he was acting this way while the child still lived. Once David found out his child had died he got up cleaned himself and ate. Now the servants were bewildered by his actions. They asked him why did he do the things prior to the child’s death. David replied as long as the baby was alive who knows I could have changed the Lord’s mind. But now that my baby is dead I can’t bring him back but one day I’ll be with him.

Now we all know David did not go to Hell and by this we know his child did not either.
So do children go to hell? David’s son didn’t who was conceived in adultery.
Hope this helps.

 

[Doug Brents]

Regarding infant mortality, can a baby, ever be condemned? Even babies Satanist women conceive in order to abort or worse. Adolf Hitler's identical twin zygote, that may actually have happened? Christian ladies or pagan tribes women, even prostitutes, abortions and other infant mortality cases? Can any babies ever be condemned by God?

This idea is at the root of the practice of infant baptism. And the root of the error in ancient and medieval church soteriology. The errors after the first century, Augustine's, Calvin's, Arminius', Molin's...

I put forwards the idea of trusting God like a child, according to the Gospel. And the power in Christ's sacred blood, not only to wash sin away but also to prevent sin. And that we all have guardian angels.

"You must be baptized in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, or you will be lost."

1 Timothy 4:10, God the saviour of all especially those who believe.

Can innocence itself save someone? Or is it always grace, in the sacred blood and the living water, the free gift of salvation, the Holy Spirit in your heart...?

The innocent do not need a savior, because they are not yet guilty of sin which is what separates us from God and causes the need for the Savior. David gave evidence for the presence of his son in Heaven when he said in 2 Sam 12:23, "But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I am going to him, but he will not return to me."

 

[Doug Brents]

Catholics believe that when parents decide on their infants baptism, and have it done, that the baby receives Christ. Otherwise if he or she dies, the old teaching was they end up in Limbo. But the current beliefs are different, and assume automatic salvation of babies.

The concept of "limbo" is found no where in Scripture. There is either saved, or lost, there is no in between.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The innocent do not need a savior, because they are not yet guilty of sin which is what separates us from God and causes the need for the Savior. David gave evidence for the presence of his son in Heaven when he said in 2 Sam 12:23, "But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I am going to him, but he will not return to me."

The innocent, infants, still need to grow up, in body and character, to be holy and have God's love energy. Or they can't stay in Heaven. They gain a kind of spiritual body before resurrection. They need knowledge... Jesus provides and that is salvation and sanctification.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The concept of "limbo" is found no where in Scripture. There is either saved, or lost, there is no in between.

I do not believe in Limbo either. I'd say it is not black and white. NDE anecdotes reveal second chances so often. Howard Storm was lost, in Hell, given a second chance was improved but not ready to enter life, and was given a second chance at life, in which he became Christian and went on missions...

Little ones have the trust and take to God's grace, but have never learned to worship from the heart in love and reverence, until a forefather or angel or God Himself teaches him or her. Salvation and onto sanctification are processes.

 

[Doug Brents]

The innocent, infants, still need to grow up, in body and character, to be holy and have God's love energy. Or they can't stay in Heaven.

Show me that in Scripture.

They gain a kind of spiritual body before resurrection.

Again, where is that in Scripture?

 

[Doug Brents]

I do not believe in Limbo either. I'd say it is not black and white. NDE anecdotes reveal second chances so often. Howard Storm was lost, in Hell, given a second chance was improved but not ready to enter life, and was given a second chance at life, in which he became Christian and went on missions...

Little ones have the trust and take to God's grace, but have never learned to worship from the heart in love and reverence, until a forefather or angel or God Himself teaches him or her.

Again, please show any of that in Scripture.

Salvation and onto sanctification are processes.

When you pawn something, or something is taken from you by someone, then you redeem it by giving the redemption price to the one who took it. But if you are still in possession of the thing, then you need not redeem it, because you still have it in your possession.

Salvation (redemption) is only necessary for those who have fallen (which is all who have the mental capacity to understand right and wrong and choose wrong). An infant has not fallen, so they are not in need of redemption. They are not cut off from God.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Show me that in Scripture.

Again, where is that in Scripture?

KJV Colossians 1:25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Leviticus 11:45, 1 Peter 1:16. Be holy for I AM holy.

Hebrews 12:14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

2 Corinthians 4:6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Treasures in Jars of Clay

(Romans 6:1-14)



7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

So, in the hands of their guardian angels, deceased infants are carried to Heaven and filled with light, which becomes their body of light. God causes them to will and do of His good pleasure by His Spirit, otherwise they are innocent from the choice of sin, but still need to learn to talk, and kindly..., they still have free will. Philippians 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Taught reverence and receive salvation, and it produces good will...

What can they do without language... and without knowledge... ? Neither good nor bad. This state is not sin but still separation from God, that we are all born with. Except Jesus and maybe John His cousin.

Galatians 5:22, we/they need the fruit, and mainly love.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Again, please show any of that in Scripture.

When you pawn something, or something is taken from you by someone, then you redeem it by giving the redemption price to the one who took it. But if you are still in possession of the thing, then you need not redeem it, because you still have it in your possession.

Salvation (redemption) is only necessary for those who have fallen (which is all who have the mental capacity to understand right and wrong and choose wrong). An infant has not fallen, so they are not in need of redemption. They are not cut off from God.

The Bible teaches that we are born into a fallen state, not born in grace, fully upright, even John the Baptist was not perfect, Jesus even said that he was not as great as the least in the Kingdom of God.
KJV Matthew 11:10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

I can also ask you, where is the pawn analogy in scripture?

The little ones are not cut off from God, but they are not wise and full of love, saved from uncleanness at conception and birth, the way it would be without the fall of Adam.

Luke 18:15And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

We normally receive the Kingdom by hearing, asking, by faith or trust, and into the heart of the human spirit comes the presence of God. Then you are in the Kingdom. Saved, or, you were saved, you are being saved, you will be saved.

 

[Dan Perez]

I do not believe in Limbo either. I'd say it is not black and white. NDE anecdotes reveal second chances so often. Howard Storm was lost, in Hell, given a second chance was improved but not ready to enter life, and was given a second chance at life, in which he became Christian and went on missions...

Little ones have the trust and take to God's grace, but have never learned to worship from the heart in love and reverence, until a forefather or angel or God Himself teaches him or her. Salvation and onto sanctification are processes.

I see ELECTION for the Body of Christ , Eph 1:4 , CHOSEN in Him BEFORE //PRO the foundation of the world !!

Next is for Israel in Rom 9:11 for the children not yet having been BORN , neither having PRACTRICED any thing GOOD or BAD , IN ORDER that the purpose of God according to ELECTION // CHOSEN might remain , NOT from works but from the one calling .

dan p

 

[RDKirk]

I voted "No," but not because infants are innocent. As I read scripture, we are all born in a fallen state.

Surely, I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. -- Psalm 51

However, God can certainly do as He wills. Both the OT and the NT show that God considers ignorance of Him in His judgement:

“Should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left..." -- Jonah 4

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. -- John 9

And that servant, who knew his lord's will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes; but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. -- Luke 12

Paul says this in a reverse manner--that knowledge of God removes excuse:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. -- Romans 1

Infants are not innocent, but they are totally ignorant. God's extends His mercy over their ignorance.

 

[John Mullally]

I see ELECTION for the Body of Christ , Eph 1:4 , CHOSEN in Him BEFORE //PRO the foundation of the world !!

No Ephesians is not speaking about a select set of people chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the world. Election is to service. In the OT, Israel was elect, but not all Israel was saved.

The book of Ephesians is written to the "faithful in Christ" (Ephesians 1:1). It is addressed to them. So you can substitute "us" and "you" in that letter, with the "faithful in Christ". Using this substitution Ephesians reads as follows in the NIV:

For he chose the faithful in Christ in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined the faithful in Christ for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—​

 

[Dan Perez]

No Ephesians is not speaking about a select set of people chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the world. Election is to service. In the OT, Israel was elect, but not all Israel was saved.

The book of Ephesians is written to the "faithful in Christ" (Ephesians 1:1). It is addressed to them. So you can substitute "us" and "you" in that letter, with the "faithful in Christ". Using this substitution Ephesians reads as follows in the NIV:

For he chose the faithful in Christ in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined the faithful in Christ for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—​

And I do not see the Greek word for service in Eph 1:4 .

Unless you have a verse for service ??

dan p

 

[John Mullally]

I see ELECTION for the Body of Christ , Eph 1:4 , CHOSEN in Him BEFORE //PRO the foundation of the world !!

No Ephesians is not speaking about a select set of people chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the world. Election is to service. In the OT, Israel was elect, but not all Israel was saved.

The book of Ephesians is written to the "faithful in Christ" (Ephesians 1:1). It is addressed to them. So you can substitute "us" and "you" in that letter, with the "faithful in Christ". Using this substitution Ephesians reads as follows in the NIV:

For he chose the faithful in Christ in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined the faithful in Christ for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—​

And I do not see the Greek word for service in Eph 1:4 .

Unless you have a verse for service ??

dan p

Well if you want to be technical, I can't find an English translation that uses any derivative of the word "elect" within Ephesians chapter 1. You said you saw "election" in Ephesians 1:4.

My point is that the faithful in Christ are chosen. Not that God chooses who will be faithful in Christ. In Mark 16:15-16, Jesus says that God has chosen that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved. There is no scripture that says God chooses who will believe the Gospel.