Can Amil prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years?

[DavidPT]

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's coming.

Let's discuss the false prophet for a moment. In your view, when does the fp first appear in history? Let's look at some of what is said about it.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Let's not focus on whether or not literal fire coming down from heaven is meant. IOW, I don't want to get in a debate about that. This verse does say he does great wonders. Is this something that has already been fulfilled in the past? Or is this something that is yet to be fulfilled? Why this matters is because this will tell us whether you are correct or not, that the false prophet's activities are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's coming.

Plus, he starts out by attracting attention to himself by way of these great wonders. Then after he has everyone's attention, it then leads to him saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Has anything like that already been fulfilled yet? If yes, when?

Secondly, the 42 months are simply an unrestrained intensification of what has been ongoing through the centuries. The beast has been wreaking havoc under different guises for long before the First Advent.

Yet, the beast obviously isn't wreaking havoc while it's in the pit, because if it has, why is even in the pit to begin with. And yes, I know Amils don't take the pit to be meaning a literal place where spirit beings can be detained, yet I do. Per my view of things, not your view of things, which BTW, that's usually the perspective I'm coming from, my view of things, the beast wouldn't be wreaking havoc while it's in the pit since the pit is a real place that can imprison spirit beings and that I'm assuming the beast is a spirit being of some sort.

Thirdly, the function of the beast corresponds with the ongoing evil of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. The fate of both are closely tied together. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

That might be true when it's not in the pit. I see no reason for it to be true while the beast is inactive, thus in the pit.

Fourthly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The millennium does not follow Rev 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Rev 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

I do agree Revelation is not chronological, but not to the degree you take that. Irregardless that it is not chronological, what is chronological is this though----the beast is not in the pit, then it is in the pit, and then it is no longer in the pit, and that it ascending out of the pit can only fit the latter. It can't ascend out of the pit before it's in the pit, and can't ascend out of the pit if it is still in the pit, right? No one can refuse to worship it while it's inactive, then be martyred because of it. That only happens when it's not in the pit. Again, my reasoning of this not necessarily yours.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Does it look like the beast is still in the pit here? Does it look like all the world already wondered after the beast before one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed? Again, my reasoning of this not necessarily yours.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

When does the text indicate the dragon gives power unto the beast? Before or after one of his heads as it were wounded to death? Does not Revelation 13:1-2 tell us when? Does not verse 2 and 3 involve 7 heads in total? Does not the leopard have 4 heads according to Daniel 7? And if we add to that the head that represents the bear, the head that represents the lion, and the head that has the deadly wound, that equals 7 heads.

Fifthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church under the Roman Empire, in the Middle ages under the persecution of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months is wrong.

When Stephen was martyred, according to John, the beast would have been in the pit at the time, thus inactive. Even according to Amil since Amil has satan in the pit at the time of the cross or at least as of the ascension, Amil also has the beast in the pit when satan is in it, therefore the beast would have been inactive when Stephen was martyred if it was in the pit at the time. Keeping in mind, my reasoning not necessarily yours. I'm not saying Amils might see it that way, I'm saying I see it that way if assuming this scenario. I don't misrepresent Amil like some of you claim. Most of the time it's like what I just said, in general I'm not saying Amils might see it that way, I'm saying I see it that way if assuming this scenario, whatever the scenario might be at the time. How could that be misrepresenting Amil?

Sixthly, the end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. there is good reason to connect Satan’s little season with the last 3.5 years (42 months/1260 days), found in Scripture. This does not demand a literal meaning in this most symbolic of books. This describes the final conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Satan and the beast will be loosed at the end to resist the people of God. That is when the restraint is simply removed. Right at the end, the kingdom of darkness is overthrown. So, the 42-month reign of the beast at the end and Satan's little season correlate. They are the same event.

There is also good reason to think the 42 months precede the thousand years instead, that being this---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4). This last 3.5 years explains their martyrdom. There is no martyrdom in need of explaining after the thousand years. No saints are martyred after the thousand years. They are martyred before the thousand years begins, thus this final 3.5 years explains their martyrdom.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


This verse clearly proves that martyrdom is taking place during the 42 month reign of the beast. Where in Revelation 20:7-9 does it ever indicate martyrdom of saints is still taking place?

It took me forever to address and type up my response. And all for nothing, that I'm certain of.

 

[DavidPT]

For you to hold up any old target for me to "plink" at, isn't going to help, you, me or the grazing audience of this thread.
Just by a few of the words/phrases that you use, such as: "42 month reign", "The pit", "Saints martyred", need to be addressed separately.
From the "Amil" view, they have different scriptural understandings than what your mind is convinced of believing, through the view that you now hold to.

All I know is, I can not see any way that Revelation 20:4 and the saints that are martyred for not worshiping the beast, that this somehow fits Amil rather than Premil.

 

[sovereigngrace]

All I know is, I can not see any way that Revelation 20:4 and the saints that are martyred for not worshiping the beast, that this somehow fits Amil rather than Premil.

That is just your private thoughts. That is not a biblical argument. It is therefore inadmissible.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Let's discuss the false prophet for a moment. In your view, when does the fp first appear in history? Let's look at some of what is said about it.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Let's not focus on whether or not literal fire coming down from heaven is meant. IOW, I don't want to get in a debate about that. This verse does say he does great wonders. Is this something that has already been fulfilled in the past? Or is this something that is yet to be fulfilled? Why this matters is because this will tell us whether you are correct or not, that the false prophet's activities are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's coming.

Plus, he starts out by attracting attention to himself by way of these great wonders. Then after he has everyone's attention, it then leads to him saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Has anything like that already been fulfilled yet? If yes, when?

Revelation 16:13 tells us: “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.”

Just like God is triune, the enemy has a satanic trinity. Satan, the beast and the false prophet mimic the headship, governance and structure of the Godhead. That is because the kingdom of darkness is obsessed with, and intent on, counterfeiting the kingdom of God. Does 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 not tell us? “Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”

In Revelation 16:13 we see “three unclean spirits” come out of Satan's mouth, the beast's mouth and the false prophet’s mouth. These expose this evil confederacy, prove their distinction but also their close unitary agenda.

• If you want to know the agenda of Satan, the beast and the false prophet, just study Scripture. They are in a unified league to deceive man and damn his never-dying soul. Everything about this kingdom is evil.
• As for God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit, they are unified in a league to save man and deliver him from a lost eternity. Everything about this kingdom is righteous.

God rules over the kingdom of heaven. Satan is king over the kingdom of darkness. Let us look at how both kingdoms are administered:

The Father Originator Satan
The Son Executor The Beast
The Holy Spirit Witness The False Prophet

Each kingdom works as a collective whole. They are in unison. They share a mutual goal. Their fortune is indivisible. But both kingdoms are diametrically opposed to each other at every turn. They are in an unrelenting spiritual conflict in both the visible and invisible realms to the death.

The good news is: God is in control. He has an unfolding plan that involved the judgment, defeat and subjugation of the kingdom of darkness through His victorious First Advent and the final and eternal sentence, punishment and destruction of that vile kingdom at the second coming. This is played out in detail in the sacred pages. The book of Revelation gives much meat on the bone. It depicts this great ongoing invisible battle in symbolic terms. It is seen as an unrelenting conflict that continues until the end.

This satanic trinity has been on the go from the beginning!

Yet, the beast obviously isn't wreaking havoc while it's in the pit, because if it has, why is even in the pit to begin with. And yes, I know Amils don't take the pit to be meaning a literal place where spirit beings can be detained, yet I do. Per my view of things, not your view of things, which BTW, that's usually the perspective I'm coming from, my view of things, the beast wouldn't be wreaking havoc while it's in the pit since the pit is a real place that can imprison spirit beings and that I'm assuming the beast is a spirit being of some sort.

We all know there are many crimes committed within the confines of a prison. Murders, rapes, drug abuse are all common within the prisons of this world. That doesn’t dilute the fact that the prisoner still remains imprisoned. In the case of Satan's prison, he too commits many crimes within his prison walls, but that does not negate the fact he is under 24 hr surveillance and is under definite and continual restraint since the cross. The chains are more effective than earthly metal ones, they are spiritual chains designed to slow him down and restrict his movement. The spiritual chains of the wicked clearly don't stop them operating within their dark prison-cell.

All sane commentators would believe that the lost are bound in a prison today. However, none would view that as a physical reality; neither would any deny the fact that those imprisoned individuals enjoy the same physical movement as the saved; the reason being that we are speaking about spiritual matters.

Were the wicked bound in chains before the cross? Yes. In this state, could they still influence? Yes. Then surely it is reasonable for spiritual beings to do the same.

That might be true when it's not in the pit. I see no reason for it to be true while the beast is inactive, thus in the pit.

Because Premillennialist are devoid of biblical support they seem to think that presenting personal opinion is somehow a legitimate rebuttal. It is not. All you're presenting here is personal opinion. I have presented biblical support which you have repeatedly avoided.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The restraint of the kingdom of darkness stays in effect until just before the second coming, when hell’s legions are collectively released – for a short season at the end. The release of Satan, beast (mystery of iniquity), and demons (scorpions) all occur just prior to the second coming. This proves that the symbolism of Revelation relates to the here-and-now.

Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season.

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. As the ESV states: “the mystery of lawlessness is …the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish.” It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes.

 

[Earburner]

All I know is, I can not see any way that Revelation 20:4 and the saints that are martyred for not worshiping the beast, that this somehow fits Amil rather than Premil.

Unfortunately, through many centuries,
"church-ianity" has corrupted the the concept of when the 10H Beast began, and how it has evolved, and is still evolving to this day, as a persecuting power against Christ's Born Again Saints, the invisible church, "the Israel of God", aka the "wheat".
The forms of the 10H Beast have been so far:
a military empire, the Roman empire.
a religious empire, the Roman religious hierarchy.
a financial empire, now in process, and near completion with digitized money.

But first, you have to come terms with the book of Daniel. Daniel's prophecies were written for the nation of Israel, upto the First appearance of the Messiah.
There are the six works that were "determined" by God The Father, of what Jesus was to "finish. They are clearly shown in KJV-Daniel 9:24.
Two times in the NT, Jesus said that He "finished" those works, in the period of one week of the prophetic 70 weeks of 490 years, thus causing all the 70 weeks to be fulfilled, of all that was "determined" by God, right up to Pentecost, which is clearly shown in scripture.

John.17[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John.19[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Dan.9[27]And he [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [temple services], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured [out] upon the desolate.

Acts.10[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles [the desolate, being void of God] also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is where there might be a dispute. Nowhere does it ever say Apollyon is one of satan's titles/name. But even if it was meaning him, so what? That doesn't prove he was in the pit when the locusts were, and that he ascended when they did. The text doesn't say one way or the other as to whether or not the king of the pit was imprisoned in the pit with the locusts. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. It's 50/50 odds then, unless some other Scripture can prove who is meant by Apollyon and can prove that he was or wasn't imprisoned with the locusts at the time. All I see you doing is speculating that satan is meant by Apollyon in order to make Amil more believable.

It matters a lot if Satan was imprisoned in the abyss before the second coming because it is another passage that corroborates the Amillennialist position. It proves that Revelation 20 relates to the here-and-now and the intra-Advent period. This is if we interpret Scripture with Scripture, as Amillennialists do.

Premillennialists (as we all know) have no corroboration for their future binding of Satan after the second coming.

Revelation 9:11 tells us that the imprisoned demons in the abyss: “had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit [Gr. abussos or abyss], whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

I just showed you in great detail how there can only be one king over the kingdom of darkness. Abaddon and Apollyon (English: destroyer) are just other names for Satan.

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together, we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means 'king with a domain'. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for 'kingdom' is the Greek word basileia denoting 'sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion'. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king - a head, (2) a domain to rule over - subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration - ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

We all know, there are only two spiritual realms in conflict on this earth - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Whilst these two kingdoms manifest through physical individuals they are invisible empires. The kingdom being described which "the destroyer" rules over is assuredly not the kingdom of God. The elect angels are never located in the abyss but rather in heavenly splendor. Therefore, we must be speaking of the dark restrained invisible spiritual realm of the devil's kingdom.

Who is this king (or destroyer) that currently reigns over "the bottomless pit" or abyss? We know from the description given of this king that we are looking at an angel. In fact, the king is called: "the angel of the abyss." There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon are referring to someone within the demonic realm. This begs an instant question, who is the king that rules over that dark realm?

Strong's Concordance gives us help, describing Apollyon (623) as "a destroyer (i.e. Satan)." Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong's 622) we find it means "to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively." The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There seems little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church - the devil.

Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan's minions prior to the last trumpet. It also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.

The New Testament employs the Greek root word for Apollyon to describe the works of Satan the destroyer. 1Corinthians 10:9-10 says, "Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed (or apollumi) of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed (or apollumi) of the destroyer."

The same word is also used in John 10:10, in the familiar passage where Christ exposes the nature and aims of devil, saying, "The thief (Satan) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy (or apollumi)."

Anywhere we see Satan mentioned or find him described, his nature is always to destroy. That is why his name is the same in every language (Greek and Hebrew included).

 

[JulieB67]

It does if we don't put Christ first. That's why people can read the exact same Scriptures and understand it so differently.

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

The entire book is the revelation of Christ, so anything discussed about it would naturally be putting Christ first imo.

Sadly there are even some churches that shy away from teaching Revelation all that much because they don't think think it's all that important to professing Christians.

 

[DavidPT]

Unfortunately, through many centuries,
"church-ianity" has corrupted the the concept of when the 10H Beast began, and how it has evolved, and is still evolving to this day, as a persecuting power against Christ's Born Again Saints, the invisible church, "the Israel of God", aka the "wheat".
The forms of the 10H Beast have been so far:
a military empire, the Roman empire.
a religious empire, the Roman religious hierarchy.
a financial empire, now in process, and near completion with digitized money.

But first, you have to come terms with the book of Daniel. Daniel's prophecies were written for the nation of Israel, upto the First appearance of the Messiah.
There are the six works that were "determined" by God The Father, of what Jesus was to "finish. They are clearly shown in KJV-Daniel 9:24.
Two times in the NT, Jesus said that He "finished" those works, in the period of one week of the prophetic 70 weeks of 490 years, thus causing all the 70 weeks to be fulfilled, of all that was "determined" by God, right up to Pentecost, which is clearly shown in scripture.

John.17[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John.19[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Dan.9[27]And he [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [temple services], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured [out] upon the desolate.

Acts.10[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles [the desolate, being void of God] also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I have no clue what point you are trying to make here?

Even though Revelation is not chronological throughout, what is chronological though, is that the beast is not in the pit, then it's in the pit, and then it's no longer in the pit, and that pretty much everything that has to be fulfilled up unto Revelation 19:20, these events have to fit somewhere on this timeline. Meaning the timeline involving the beast. For example, the 42 month reign of the beast, it has to fit somewhere on this timeline. Where does it fit then? Does a fit during a time when the beast is not in the pit yet? During a time when it is in the pit? Or during a time when it has ascended out of the pit?

Then there is the question of the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred because they refused to worship the beast, or his image, etc, where does their martyrdom fit on this timeline? Does a fit during a time when the beast is not in the pit yet? During a time when it is in the pit? Or during a time when it has ascended out of the pit?

As to this image made to the beast which had the deadly wound that is healed, where does this fit on this timeline? Does a fit during a time when the beast is not in the pit yet? During a time when it is in the pit? Or during a time when it has ascended out of the pit? Why this matters is because this is one of the reasons the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 are martyred, because they refused to worship it's image. Obviously, there has to be an image made to the beast which had the deadly wound first, before anyone can be martyred for refusing to worship it.

Obviously, there can't be this image until a beast rises out of the sea and another out of the earth. But Amils act as if none of these things are obvious even though they clearly are. How is it not obvious that the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, another one out of the earth, before there can even be any saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 being martyred for the reasons they are, that being, that they refused to worship the beast, or it's image?

I don't know why I'm addressing this to you? I suspect you don't have any good answers for me here. Fortunately, you are not the only Amil posting in this thread.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When Stephen was martyred, according to John, the beast would have been in the pit at the time, thus inactive. Even according to Amil since Amil has satan in the pit at the time of the cross or at least as of the ascension, Amil also has the beast in the pit when satan is in it, therefore the beast would have been inactive when Stephen was martyred if it was in the pit at the time. Keeping in mind, my reasoning not necessarily yours. I'm not saying Amils might see it that way, I'm saying I see it that way if assuming this scenario. I don't misrepresent Amil like some of you claim. Most of the time it's like what I just said, in general I'm not saying Amils might see it that way, I'm saying I see it that way if assuming this scenario, whatever the scenario might be at the time. How could that be misrepresenting Amil?

You have misrepresented Amils several times. I can't believe you would try to claim otherwise even if we've given several examples of you doing just that. This includes your latest claim that Amils don't see any difference between the thousand years and Satan's little season when it comes to the billions opposing the church. That is a misrepresentation of Amil because it doesn't take into account that we believe the falling away Paul talked about occurs during Satan's little season. So, Amils see a big difference in that sense between the thousand years and Satan's little season.

There is also good reason to think the 42 months precede the thousand years instead, that being this---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4). This last 3.5 years explains their martyrdom. There is no martyrdom in need of explaining after the thousand years. No saints are martyred after the thousand years. They are martyred before the thousand years begins, thus this final 3.5 years explains their martyrdom.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This verse clearly proves that martyrdom is taking place during the 42 month reign of the beast. Where in Revelation 20:7-9 does it ever indicate martyrdom of saints is still taking place?

It talks about a number of people "as the sand of the sea" going up against "the camp of the saints", which I believe is referring to the church. I think it's reasonable to assume that some martyrdom is happening when you consider that a number of people "as the sand of the sea" is actively opposing the church.

It took me forever to address and type up my response. And all for nothing, that I'm certain of.

Honestly, it was mostly for nothing. And the reason I say that is because all you really had to say is that you interpret the beast being in the pit as meaning the beast is completely inactive. Amils do not. So, there's really nothing more that we can talk about beyond that as it relates to the beast. Our understanding of the beast and what it means for the beast to be in the pit is very different, so there's no point in even discussing all the other things you said in your post since it's all based on the assumption that the beast is completely inactive while in the pit.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

The entire book is the revelation of Christ, so anything discussed about it would naturally be putting Christ first imo.

Sadly there are even some churches that shy away from teaching Revelation all that much because they don't think think it's all that important to professing Christians.

Yes, that is sad because the book itself indicates that anyone who reads it and takes it to heart will be blessed for doing so.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

 

[Earburner]

I have no clue what point you are trying to make here?

My point is:
"But first, you have to come terms with the book of Daniel. Daniel's prophecies were written for the nation of Israel, upto the First appearance of the Messiah."

If you can't acknowledge that point, with the support scriptures that I did provide, it's not my fault of you not trying to understand.

Let's approach that point from this way:
The book of Daniel was for Israel, as the book of Revelation is for this Age of God's Grace.

 

[Earburner]

I have no clue what point you are trying to make here?

Even though Revelation is not chronological throughout, what is chronological though, is that the beast is not in the pit, then it's in the pit, and then it's no longer in the pit, and that pretty much everything that has to be fulfilled up unto Revelation 19:20, these events have to fit somewhere on this timeline. Meaning the timeline involving the beast. For example, the 42 month reign of the beast, it has to fit somewhere on this timeline. Where does it fit then? Does a fit during a time when the beast is not in the pit yet? During a time when it is in the pit? Or during a time when it has ascended out of the pit?

Then there is the question of the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred because they refused to worship the beast, or his image, etc, where does their martyrdom fit on this timeline? Does a fit during a time when the beast is not in the pit yet? During a time when it is in the pit? Or during a time when it has ascended out of the pit?

As to this image made to the beast which had the deadly wound that is healed, where does this fit on this timeline? Does a fit during a time when the beast is not in the pit yet? During a time when it is in the pit? Or during a time when it has ascended out of the pit? Why this matters is because this is one of the reasons the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 are martyred, because they refused to worship it's image. Obviously, there has to be an image made to the beast which had the deadly wound first, before anyone can be martyred for refusing to worship it.

Obviously, there can't be this image until a beast rises out of the sea and another out of the earth. But Amils act as if none of these things are obvious even though they clearly are. How is it not obvious that the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, another one out of the earth, before there can even be any saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 being martyred for the reasons they are, that being, that they refused to worship the beast, or it's image?

I don't know why I'm addressing this to you? I suspect you don't have any good answers for me here. Fortunately, you are not the only Amil posting in this thread.

You would do well to comprehend the Amil view, simply by understanding what a "pit" is.
It's the grave, as is hades and hell, the place of where the dead go.

Now, in relation to satan, when the KJV says "the bottomless pit", it is actually saying the endless grave.
Since the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, Satan was cast out of Heaven and did fall to the earth, never to return back into Heaven.
This earth is now his ONLY home.
It is the place of his endless death/grave, aka the bottomless pit.

 

[Earburner]

^ Isaiah 14[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

The entire book is the revelation of Christ, so anything discussed about it would naturally be putting Christ first imo.

Sadly there are even some churches that shy away from teaching Revelation all that much because they don't think think it's all that important to professing Christians.

I'm talking about Christum treiben. If you were to go back a little further in the conversation, you would see the following:

The point of the Scriptures referenced in the OP is Jesus Christ's return and final victory. Your post is so focused on the pieces that you forgot the foundation. What is the point of the thousand years you are discussing? they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years(Revelation 20:4). Jesus Christ is not mentioned once in your entire OP. You even managed to skip the very verses that say His NAME and that mention the point of the Scriptures referenced.

Something I have noticed time and again is that people arguing and creating dissension within the Church often fail to even utter the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. They "bury Christ". I think it shows where their heart lies.

If we discuss the theological impact of the beatitudes but fail to mention the source(Jesus said these things as part of the Sermon on the Mount), we find ourselves discussing disembodied ideas without authority. Do not be deceived; There is power in the name of Jesus.(Acts 4:12, John 14:13, Luke 10:17, Romans 10:13, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Acts 22:16, Acts 3:6, Acts 4:30, Acts 8:12, Jeremiah 10:6, John 14:14, John 16:26, John 3:18, Mark 16:17, Proverbs 18:10, Psalm 68:4)

 

[DavidPT]

You would do well to comprehend the Amil view, simply by understanding what a "pit" is.
It's the grave, as is hades and hell, the place of where the dead go.

Now, in relation to satan, when the KJV says "the bottomless pit", it is actually saying the endless grave.
Since the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, Satan was cast out of Heaven and did fall to the earth, never to return back into Heaven.
This earth is now his ONLY home.
It is the place of his endless death/grave, aka the bottomless pit.

As far as comprehending the Amil view, that view is no different than any other view in the following regard, meaning it all depends on what Amil you ask. IOW, your understanding of the pit might not be the same way another Amil understands the pit, the same way my understanding of something might not be the same way another Premil understands it. What do you then mean by the Amil view? Your view or the view of all Amils, as in, concerning the latter, all Amils understand the pit the exact same way?

As to the pit in question, the Greek word is abussos. The first time we see that word used in the NT is in Luke 8:31.

Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos).

It apparently must be a real place of some kind, and not a spiritual restraint instead, such as some Amils seem to take the pit to be involving, if they feared being cast there. It is also apparently a place of torment if we compare with the parallel account and what the demons said there.

Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

 

[grafted branch]

As far as comprehending the Amil view, that view is no different than any other view in the following regard, meaning it all depends on what Amil you ask. IOW, your understanding of the pit might not be the same way another Amil understands the pit, the same way my understanding of something might not be the same way another Premil understands it. What do you then mean by the Amil view? Your view or the view of all Amils, as in, concerning the latter, all Amils understand the pit the exact same way?

As to the pit in question, the Greek word is abussos. The first time we see that word used in the NT is in Luke 8:31.

Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos).

It apparently must be a real place of some kind, and not a spiritual restraint instead, such as some Amils seem to take the pit to be involving, if they feared being cast there. It is also apparently a place of torment if we compare with the parallel account and what the demons said there.

Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

I’m not going to argue for the Amil position but I saw someone, who was Amil, put forth the idea that Satan was bound when he entered Judas.

If I remember correctly he said that Satan was not allowed to leave Judas once he entered into him. He then used Acts of the Apostles 1:20 to show that when Judas died he went to a place where no other person was, meaning that this was the bottomless pit.

This view also held that there was symmetry between God and Satan, similar to what SG is saying about the unholy trinity. I think this view had both God and Satan able to be in heaven, Satan is cast out at the same time Jesus is born (both on earth), Satan becomes both man and spiritual entity when he enters Judas (Jesus was both man and God), and then both Judas and Jesus die approximately the same time. Jesus while in sheol puts Satan/Judas in the bottomless pit with the seal being death. The symmetry then continues while Christ reigns from heaven and Satan remains and reigns from the bottomless pit. They both come back for Satan’s little season where the final battle happens.

I’m just posting this so you can be aware of this view, I’m not promoting it. I do see some problems with it myself so do with it what you will.

 

[DavidPT]

I’m not going to argue for the Amil position but I saw someone, who was Amil, put forth the idea that Satan was bound when he entered Judas.

If I remember correctly he said that Satan was not allowed to leave Judas once he entered into him. He then used Acts of the Apostles 1:20 to show that when Judas died he went to a place where no other person was, meaning that this was the bottomless pit.

This view also held that there was symmetry between God and Satan, similar to what SG is saying about the unholy trinity. I think this view had both God and Satan able to be in heaven, Satan is cast out at the same time Jesus is born (both on earth), Satan becomes both man and spiritual entity when he enters Judas (Jesus was both man and God), and then both Judas and Jesus die approximately the same time. Jesus while in sheol puts Satan/Judas in the bottomless pit with the seal being death. The symmetry then continues while Christ reigns from heaven and Satan remains and reigns from the bottomless pit. They both come back for Satan’s little season where the final battle happens.

I’m just posting this so you can be aware of this view, I’m not promoting it. I do see some problems with it myself so do with it what you will.

That's for sure an interesting view. That's the first time I have heard of it. Unless there are numerous Amils that also hold that view, it might be more of a private interpretation than anything else. Even if other Amils hold that view, did they come to those conclusions on their own, though?

For example. My interpretation of the sheep and goats judgment, an interpretation that is in the minority rather than in the majority. How I interpret that, there are others that interpret it pretty much the same, except I was unaware of that until after the fact. Thus, this can't be involving a private interpretation or involving someone adopting someone's private interpretation, which could be the case if other Amils hold to the view you just mentioned. IOW, they didn't come to the same conclusions on their own, they were first made aware of this view, then eventually decided it is in the Bible after all, then adopted that view. Totally opposite of the example I used in regards to my interpretation of the sheep and goats judgment.

 

[Earburner]

Let's look at some scriptures that reveal WHO binds Satan, HOW it is that he is bound, WHEN He was bound, and WHAT/WHO he was bound from.
First, the parable of the strongman.
The single truth to learned is that it is Jesus who first binds Satan, and then once bound, Jesus as the Victor, is entitled to the spoils of satan's goods.
Matthew 12[28] But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
[29] Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Mark 3[22] And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
[23] And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
[24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
[25] And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
[26] And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
[27] No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Luke 11[19] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
[20] But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
[21] When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
[22] But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

So then, the first concept to be learned is, WHO was it that obtained the Victory over Satan?

The second concept is, HOW was the victory over satan and his goods achieved?

The third concept is, WHAT are the goods that are the spoils of the battle? (Since Jesus is the Victor, then those spoils/goods, which satan held captive, are now subject to the Victor, who is Jesus).

The fourth concept to be learned is, WHEN did Jesus bind Satan, so that Jesus could spoil satan's goods?

Edit: I have purposely left the above questions unanswered, so that the Holy Spirit can guide for the answers to each.

From here, I will continue with the Amil view of
"a thousand years".
Hear is a clue, to that which I shall post:
Does anyone know the date of when Jesus shall suddenly return, in all His Glory??
I didn't think so!

2B Cont'd

 

[grafted branch]

That's for sure an interesting view. That's the first time I have heard of it. Unless there are numerous Amils that also hold that view, it might be more of a private interpretation than anything else. Even if other Amils hold that view, did they come to those conclusions on their own, though?

For example. My interpretation of the sheep and goats judgment, an interpretation that is in the minority rather than in the majority. How I interpret that, there are others that interpret it pretty much the same, except I was unaware of that until after the fact. Thus, this can't be involving a private interpretation or involving someone adopting someone's private interpretation, which could be the case if other Amils hold to the view you just mentioned. IOW, they didn't come to the same conclusions on their own, they were first made aware of this view, then eventually decided it is in the Bible after all, then adopted that view. Totally opposite of the example I used in regards to my interpretation of the sheep and goats judgment.

I heard that view many years ago and only from one person, I haven’t seen anything like it in writing or on the internet so it probably is a private interpretation. It does share some similarities to other views in that it has an unholy trinity.

The person that talked to me about this view said only Amil has symmetry when it come to God and Satan and when they are physically and spiritually on earth.

I don’t think this can be completely supported with scriptures so maybe that’s why I haven’t seen others adopt this view.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Let's look at some scriptures that reveal WHO binds Satan, HOW it is that he is bound, WHEN He was bound, and WHAT/WHO he was bound from.
First, the parable of the strongman.
The single truth to learned is that it is Jesus who first binds Satan, and then once bound, Jesus as the Victor, is entitled to the spoils of satan's goods.
Matthew 12[28] But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
[29] Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Mark 3[22] And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
[23] And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
[24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
[25] And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
[26] And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
[27] No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Luke 11[19] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
[20] But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
[21] When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
[22] But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

So then, the first concept to be learned is, WHO was it that obtained the Victory over Satan?

The second concept is, HOW was the victory over satan and his goods achieved?

The third concept is, WHAT are the goods that are the spoils of the battle? (Since Jesus is the Victor, then those spoils/goods, which satan held captive, are now subject to the Victor, who is Jesus).

The fourth concept to be learned is, WHEN did Jesus bind Satan, so that Jesus could spoil satan's goods?

It would be great if you would answer these questions.