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Can a soldier be called a saint?

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Who are innocent? The last two sentences conflict...and thus is the duality of man.

no one is innocent in the sense of sin, "All have sinned." But again, you only speak of one's spiritual and neglect the physical. Earlier you asked why we always tend to put physical needs above spiritual needs. That's a great question and I agree that our Spiritual condition is way more important. But that doesnt mean we neglect physical needs.

you seem to view Military Service Members and Police Officers as those who go around mercilessly killing anything and everything. The way you think is, "we ought to do away with our military and just let whatever will be to be." When tyranny and oppression come to your door, will you be happy because you turned the other cheek? While your wife is raped and your children are taken away, will you be satisfied?

If the Spiritual is so important to you than give up all of your possessions, tell your family farewell and give every remaining moment to the model of missionary work the Lord set forth and Peter and Paul modeled so well. Let us be done with "duality" and go all in.

BTW, still waiting for your take on 1 Samuel 8 and Romans 13:1-4.
 
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You are yet to address from where you left off from your reply no. 50.

And you have yet to say anything at all. When you say anything it is without substance and no one knows what you are talking about.
 
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98cwitr

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no one is innocent in the sense of sin, "All have sinned." But again, you only speak of one's spiritual and neglect the physical. Earlier you asked why we always tend to put physical needs above spiritual needs. That's a great question and I agree that our Spiritual condition is way more important. But that doesnt mean we neglect physical needs.

you seem to view Military Service Members and Police Officers as those who go around mercilessly killing anything and everything. The way you think is, "we ought to do away with our military and just let whatever will be to be." When tyranny and oppression come to your door, will you be happy because you turned the other cheek? While your wife is raped and your children are taken away, will you be satisfied?

If the Spiritual is so important to you than give up all of your possessions, tell your family farewell and give every remaining moment to the model of missionary work the Lord set forth and Peter and Paul modeled so well. Let us be done with "duality" and go all in.

BTW, still waiting for your take on 1 Samuel 8 and Romans 13:1-4.

1 Samuel 8

Notice that Israel wants a physical king to lead them, instead of God. This is our government today. People think we need a government and it's laws, made by man, in order to maintain order, peace, and freedom. The Bible tells us from 1 Sam. 8 that God tells Samuel to give them what they want, but there will be consequences. We see that very same effect today. Simply put, we as Americans rely more on our government than we do our God, and if God is really with us, there's no need for a government or a military...unless you dont believe God still always protects those who are His (1 Cor. 13).


Romans 13:1-4

Being subject to governing bodies simply means do not be rebellious. There's really no sense in it. Remember when Paul was imprisoned and the earthquake struck. The gaurd was sure Paul had escaped and was about to kill himself to avoid the shame of failure. Yet Paul stated and the man spared himself. What this verse does not mean is follow the authorities if they are in opposition to God's Word. I yet again say that none of us can kill our neighbor and claim to love them at the same time...that would be a bold lie.
 
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D

Digout

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1 Samuel 8

Notice that Israel wants a physical king to lead them, instead of God. This is our government today. People think we need a government and it's laws, made by man, in order to maintain order, peace, and freedom. The Bible tells us from 1 Sam. 8 that God tells Samuel to give them what they want, but there will be consequences. We see that very same effect today. Simply put, we as Americans rely more on our government than we do our God, and if God is really with us, there's no need for a government or a military...unless you dont believe God still always protects those who are His (1 Cor. 13).


Romans 13:1-4

Being subject to governing bodies simply means do not be rebellious. There's really no sense in it. Remember when Paul was imprisoned and the earthquake struck. The gaurd was sure Paul had escaped and was about to kill himself to avoid the shame of failure. Yet Paul stated and the man spared himself. What this verse does not mean is follow the authorities if they are in opposition to God's Word. I yet again say that none of us can kill our neighbor and claim to love them at the same time...that would be a bold lie.
:thumbsup:
 
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1 Samuel 8

Notice that Israel wants a physical king to lead them, instead of God. This is our government today. People think we need a government and it's laws, made by man, in order to maintain order, peace, and freedom. The Bible tells us from 1 Sam. 8 that God tells Samuel to give them what they want, but there will be consequences. We see that very same effect today. Simply put, we as Americans rely more on our government than we do our God, and if God is really with us, there's no need for a government or a military...unless you dont believe God still always protects those who are His (1 Cor. 13).


Romans 13:1-4

Being subject to governing bodies simply means do not be rebellious. There's really no sense in it. Remember when Paul was imprisoned and the earthquake struck. The gaurd was sure Paul had escaped and was about to kill himself to avoid the shame of failure. Yet Paul stated and the man spared himself. What this verse does not mean is follow the authorities if they are in opposition to God's Word. I yet again say that none of us can kill our neighbor and claim to love them at the same time...that would be a bold lie.

I agree with you that we, as Americans, rely on our government more than on God and that is most unfortunate. In fact, I don't like the socialistic direction our country is heading in! However, I don't think you can rightfully compare America with the nation of Israel in 1 Samuel 8. First of all, Israel rejected a theocratic government which had previously been in effect since they came out of Egypt. Second, when God was reigning over Israel, before the days of the kings, if Israel would come under attack or oppression, God would raise up men who would deliver them; "all these were men of war," that is, they were professional soldiers (Judges 20:17). They received their marching orders from him (Judges 20:28).

Additionally, after the days of the kings, when Nehemiah was rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem and they came under threat of attack, they split up responsibilities with some building and some standing guard with spears and shields. Everyone had a sword strapped to their side (Nehemiah 4:18-20)! When told of a later threat, listen to what Nehemiah told those who suggested he hide in the temple, "Should such a man as I run away?" (Neh. 6:11). And so we see that before and after the kings of Israel, God's people were prepared to go into battle--and this with God's support!

Now I know you will say, "Ah, but we are not living in the Old Testament!" That is true, but you brought up the Old Testament. To be honest, this is not an OT vs. NT issue--this is not about law vs grace; God has never taken pleasure in death or violence (Ezekiel 18:23); God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8)!

I believe you only got half of the Romans 13:1-4 right. You said it simply means to not be rebellious against the government. Yes, but that is not all: God has instituted these authorities to bring order to an evil world. While the immediate application is to be good citizens and not be rebellious, it also shows God's purpose for government. Government "is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer" (v.5).

The problem is that there are no perfect governments. Sometimes rulers rise up and wreak all kinds of havoc. Admittedly, the United States is not the ideal government; although--in my opinion--it is one of the best so far! One area that I agree wholeheartedly with you is that when our government is in opposition to God's word we are to "obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

What you present is an ideal government, and I assure you (by God's word!) that one day the world will be completely under God's rule. There will be no need for a military because there will be no one to defend against. We will all be happily under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. This is where you suppose us to be today and I wish it were true, but it is not. Your children and mine will sleep safely tonight because of all the military service members who defend our peace and liberty. Some of us are your brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of whether or not you choose to accept us. Fortunately for us, God has accepted us through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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98cwitr

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Your children and mine will sleep safely tonight because of all the military service members who defend our peace and liberty..

No. I will sleep safely tonight because God has allowed it to be so. That said, I agree that God ordains all authorities, both good and evil, to bring about something that is grander than our comprehension. If the US Military is the vessel in which God has chosen to implement deterrents, then I have nothing but regard for that...but in the end, for a Christian, you cannot kill your neighbor and claim to love them. Don't you agree that would be a lie to attempt to claim such a thing?
 
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If I were killing for the sake of killing, then no, I would not be loving my neighbor. If I were killing in order to protect my neighbor that would be done in love. I have no desire to kill anyone but I see a value in having a strong military. As such, I will not pawn off such a duty for unbelievers. Again, i do not wish to kill anyone but understand the necessity of a strong defense.

But you do not see it that way and I do not see it your way. That's okay, we don't have to go in circles. I can say with Paul, "I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me" (2 Tim. 1:12). I am sure you are as equally confident.
 
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98cwitr

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If I were killing for the sake of killing, then no, I would not be loving my neighbor. If I were killing in order to protect my neighbor that would be done in love. I have no desire to kill anyone but I see a value in having a strong military. As such, I will not pawn off such a duty for unbelievers. Again, i do not wish to kill anyone but understand the necessity of a strong defense.

But you do not see it that way and I do not see it your way. That's okay, we don't have to go in circles. I can say with Paul, "I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me" (2 Tim. 1:12). I am sure you are as equally confident.

Nah...I see your side of it and from one person to another I'd agree with you. It's just the Christian ideologist in me that likes to discuss these points. :)

Do you think the guys that flew the B29 with Little Boy on board thought of themselves as Christians? How about Truman? Thank God for the Geneva convention right?!
 
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98cwitr

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The Bible idealizes the role of soldier, poet and king in the person of David.
He was a murderer, yet because he would almost always trust God, he was counted as just.

Wow...are you really trying to justify murder here? You don't really believe that trusting God gives you willful license to continue to sin do you?
 
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Nah...I see your side of it and from one person to another I'd agree with you. It's just the Christian ideologist in me that likes to discuss these points. :)

Do you think the guys that flew the B29 with Little Boy on board thought of themselves as Christians? How about Truman? Thank God for the Geneva convention right?!

I don't claim to know the hearts of men I have ever met (I can't even vouch for most people I have met), so I am not sure of how they thought of themselves or, more importantly, how God thought of them.

And what of Truman? Same answer I suppose. It's interesting how the critics look back and try to explain the decisions of world leaders. I reckon the best people at this are the conspiracy theorists who love to create countless scenarios with limited knowledge. Was Truman making a point to the Soviet Union? Was he seeking revenge against Japan for invading America? Was he in a hurry to end the war or trying to save money? Or, was there another reason he bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

It is estimated that just over 100,000 people were killed by these two bombings. To put that in perspective, America had bombed 6 other Japanese cities resulting in the death of 250,000 people. That number is added to other thousands and thousands of Japanese and American lives taken by the war. But even more sobering was a different plan of action that was schedule to happen later the same year: a massive invasion of Japan. It is estimated that a total concentration of the US military would have cost close to 4,000,000 lives, both American and Japanese (this number differs based upon various resources, but it is conservative). In this perspective, it seems that Little Boy made a big difference saving millions of lives. How unfortunate that it was necessary!

I think ideology is extremely important, but it must also take in account reality. The reality is that we live in a fallen and sinful world. God has sanctioned government to be a protector of the people. Some governments abuse their powers and some must hold them accountable. Additionally, the reality of a better time and place lies just beyond the horizon. At that time, all things will be made right and the Lord will reign forever. There will be no need for military; there will be no more wars. And while we look forward to that day, we cannot lose sight of our current situation: sometimes Christian men and women must take a stand to protect the weak or restrain wickedness in the world.
 
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rdclmn72

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A man after God's own heart, that's what the bible says.
It might not be popular or politically correct, but its the truth.
True, he paid for it yet it also holds true for us that God will justify by faith.
Precedent, its everything biblical...
 
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GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta

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I don't plan to die by a sword! Grace doesn't save deliberate sinners nor transgressors!

Then it isn't grace, is it?

The problem with your message is that it seems to say that Jesus' sacrifice is not sufficient. I know that you don't mean it that way, but essentially that's what's being said when you say that grace doesn't save a deliberate sinner.

Grace is given in spite of our sins.

Most sins are deliberate acts. Therefore, under your argument, no one is saved by grace. Such is unbiblical.
 
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GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta

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Wow...are you really trying to justify murder here? You don't really believe that trusting God gives you willful license to continue to sin do you?

The Bible says that there is a time for war and a time for peace.

A time for war!

Doesn't war involve killing people?

Thus, if the Bible says that there is a time for war (which results in killing people), then God is saying that there is a time for such.

In relation to the Commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Kill", it must, then, be interpreted to mean murder.

A soldier killing in war time, thus, cannot be considered a murderer.

Our God, Yahweh, condoned the killing of the Canaanites.
 
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98cwitr

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The Bible says that there is a time for war and a time for peace.

A time for war!

Doesn't war involve killing people?

Thus, if the Bible says that there is a time for war (which results in killing people), then God is saying that there is a time for such.

In relation to the Commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Kill", it must, then, be interpreted to mean murder.

A soldier killing in war time, thus, cannot be considered a murderer.

Our God, Yahweh, condoned the killing of the Canaanites.

I cannot say this enough, because apparently it falls on deaf ears or you cannot reconcile it with your current theological understanding

You cannot love your neighbor and kill them at the same time

Yet it doesn't say who should be fighting it...

Very familiar with Ecclesiastes. Are you saying that this nullifies the following?

Matthew 5:43-45New International Version (NIV)

Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

It also says there is a time for hate, and yet:

1 John 2:11

But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

1 John 4:20

Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

Unless the Bible contradicts itself I challenge you to reconcile these things.
 
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