Can a soldier be called a saint?

[Digout]

My Rebuttal against the idea that a Soldier cannot be a Christian:

“They were the army of worshippers unlike offensive system of a secular governments!”

“Prayerful people are different from secular army with their war thirsty machinery.”

“A person in possession of a sword is considered as a transgressor.”
“I don't plan to die by a sword! Grace doesn't save deliberate sinners nor transgressors!”

“Contemporary misconception, as is with many, is that by Grace we are still allowed to sin deliberately and grace will simply and continually cover those sins...Bible says otherwise.”

Here are the statements of people who have not thought out their stance on the subject of pacifism (the idea in opposition to acts of violence in order to settle a dispute). For they broaden their phylacteries by loosely throwing around the Scriptures and lengthen the tassels of their garments by spewing out Christian clichés to prove their point (Matthew 23:5). Clearly you are blind guides with dulled senses; you cannot tell an apple from an orange.

There are two warfare’s being waged in the world today: the spiritual and the physical. One is an apple and the other is an orange. The Bible speaks clearly about each of these conflicts. Of the Spiritual, the Bible informs the Christian to put on their spiritual armor and offers an offensive weapon, the sword of the Spirit—God’s Word. “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 6:12). “Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul” (1 Peter 2:11). These are only a couple of verses that state what we all know and agree on: we are in a spiritual conflict!

But do not be so foolish as to believe we are not also in a physical conflict. To deny that would be to invite due criticism. First, let me begin my argument by confirming that I loathe violence and long for the return of Christ, who is both Lord and Savior of all who believe in him. One day the need for armies will be non-existential. Unfortunately, that day has not arrived. As it now stands, there are those in the world that would strike you down for as little as a piece of bread or for as much as a worldly ideology. The need for physical security and stability in the world is a paramount for civilization!

Consider what you would do if someone were to invade your family member’s home, steal all of his possessions and take him, his wife, and all his children. If it were in your power you would everything possible to pursue that person and take back your family—even if you had to use violence. Maybe you would not? I can tell you a man who did: Abraham (read Genesis 14:12-16). But you might argue, “The OT spiritual standards were incomplete, and hence not applicable to people who believe in Jesus!” (Digout #25). Jesus said, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad” (John 8:56). The prophets also believed in Jesus and searched diligently for his coming (1 Peter 1:10-12). So comparing the OT with the NT in this scenario is fruitless.

But the need for protection doesn’t only apply to one’s home, it applies to the nation as well. Have you not read that “secular government” was instituted by God and that “whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves” (Romans 13:2)? Why has God ordained government? Because a sinful world needs stability and government is “a minister of God for you…an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil” (Rom. 13:4).

Now don’t think that I am condoning the unrighteous abuse of government. The world is full of ungodly men that use government as a means to promote their own selfish ideology. For this very purpose it is necessary for godly men to control the government, or at least work to keep it in check. Likewise, it is imperative for Christians to saturate the ranks of our military. What if there were no Christians in our military? It would be void of righteous decisions. It would be a merciless army awaiting a leader to rise to power and willing to execute ungodly orders. There would be no checks and balances. Not only would they point the weapons of destruction outward, but they would be willing to turn on their own fellow citizens. Indeed, it would turn into “war thirsty machinery” (Digout, #14).

Digout, do you not plan to die by a sword? Neither did James, but he died by the sword; so did John the Baptist (Matthew 14:10; Acts 12:2). So did Paul, according to tradition. Therefore, is it not possible that you have misinterpreted what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 26:51-56? Jesus told the servant to “Put your sword back into its place” (v. 52; BTW, John identifies the servant as Peter, Jn. 18:10). In other words, this is not the place to use the sword, this is a spiritual matter, and “How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?” So this was a spiritual battle.

It has been pointed out by Yekcidmij (#5) about the cases of the two Centurions. The first came to Jesus and asked for help, the other sent for Peter to explain salvation. Digout replied, “But they were not recognized as saints!” (#9). And so you, Digout, assume that these men did not believe, or have faith in Christ. That is ironic since in the same post you accuse someone else of making an assumption. But what does the Bible say about these Soldiers?

In Luke 7…
1. He loved his sick servant. (2)
2. He loved Israel and even built a synagogue for them. (5)
3. He acknowledged his own unworthiness and addressed Jesus as Lord. (6-7)
4. Placed confidence in the power and words of Jesus; His faith amazed Jesus, who said, “I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith.” (8-9)

It seems to me that this centurion was truly a believer! That makes him a Christian; that makes him a saint. And what of Cornelius in Acts 10?

1. He was a devout man, who feared God, gave money to the poor of Israel, and prayed continually. (10; wow, if only Christians today were that committed!)
2. He obeyed God by sending his servants to get Peter. (8)
3. His servants described him as “a righteous and God fearing man.” (22)
4. When he heard the truth of the Gospel of Jesus, he believed and the Holy Spirit came upon him and he was baptized…just like every other Christian is supposed to be. (44-48)

Again, it is clear that this centurion was a true believer. You infer that these two men just walked away from their positions in the Roman army. First of all, they wouldn’t have lived very long if they had deserted. Second, if they would have been martyrs it is unlikely that the writers would not have mentioned it. Third, if you assume that these men deserted their posts or did not actually believe because of a lack of “the bible said so,” we could easily go the other way and say that the bible didn’t say otherwise. In fact, in context, it is more easily acceptable to infer that these men followed Christ while remaining in their professions after these events.

Lastly, I want to address the rubber stamping of one’s argument with a “Christian” cliché in order to add value to one’s side of an issue, even if it doesn’t necessarily add to the conversation. Here is how 98cwitr validates the pacifistic view: “Contemporary misconception, as is with many, is that by Grace we are still allowed to sin deliberately and grace will simply and continually cover those sins...Bible says otherwise.” And yet you are so patriotic with your American flag icon! How ironic, you condemn me and yet you pay me to fight for your liberty.

I asked you, Digout, to expound on the Scriptures you have set forth for your argument. What part of the Sermon on the Mount addresses the salvation (or lack of) of a Soldier? Is it Matthew 7:1? Truly enough, “the preaching of Jesus Christ is easy to understand,” but I don’t think you understand how to use it for your argument.

You do not seem to understand the subtle and profound differences between a disciple and a believer!

 

[least]

Please explain.

 

[Digout]

Please explain.

A believer need not be a disciple, but a disciple is necessarily a believer.

 

[least]

That is absurd. How can you believe and not follow the Lord? Believing and discipleship go hand in hand.

 

[classicalhero]

A person in possession of a sword is considered as a transgressor.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Are you going to say that God himself is a transgressor because he has a sword?

 

[98cwitr]

Patriotic indeed, LOL! By the way, I am not a Chaplain, although that was my intent, but you may be surprised to know I am a 25W and work with some Bravo's from time to time (although I was an MP at one time). With that said, the Signal Corps is not immune to combat.

My question for you is, how can you not be holier-than-thou to someone who you claim cannot be holy at all? How can you on one hand have immense respect for Soldiers and on the other count me as a sinner based on the fact that I am a Soldier; isn't that a contradiction? Yes, I am a sinner, not because I am a Soldier, but because I am a sinner. Like you, I have found salvation in Christ.

No no...never said I was holy either. Because we are ALL sinners. Are you a soldier because you're a sinner or sinner because you're a soldier? Sin has a funny cause and effect.

You seem to have the same view for Police officers and doctors as well (although I don't understand the view towards doctors). I can only answer for how I can be a Soldier with a clear conscience towards God. I have enlisted in the U.S. Army because I am confident we are a nation that doesn't attack and destroy the innocent. On the contrary, we defend the weak and innocent from the tyrants of the world.

So you're gonna tell me you can put a bullet in the enemy and still have clear conscience with God? You defend with violence. What does Christ defend His sheep with?

Some people may sit back and watch CNN and come to their own conclusions, but my friend, I have been Iraq and Afghanistan multiple times and other parts of the world as well. Never have I witness the intentional destruction of innocent people. Never have I even heard of such an order. Have there been situations where innocent lives were harmed? Yes. Have there been renegade Soldiers commit war crimes? Yes, and I applaud when they come to justice.

In contrast of these isolated events stands the good done in the world by American Soldiers (and others as well). If a thousand Taliban have been killed by these "war thirsty" machines, a hundred thousand innocent lives have been saved by the efforts of our military. Not only do we go armed with our weapons, but often we go with pencils, and books, and paper, etc, to help poor school children get an education. I have conducted missions (with Soldiers and Marines) with the sole purpose of building medical facilities for a third world country. I am sure this isn't a real number, but I would say for every armed conflict the military engages in, it also engages in a hundred relief missions.

Why do we, even Christians seem to value physical life over spiritual life?

Yes, Service Members are required to know how to kill and destroy the enemies of the United States of America. We do not do so because we hate others. We do not do so because we love to murder. We do so because God has ordained it and someone must do it (Romans 13:1-4).

Whoa, now that's a blatant twisting of Scripture to fit your own means. Carefully consider what you are saying and doing...a German Nazi during WWII could say the same thing about killing Jews that you just did! God ordains the life and death of every man, yet Christians are told to love your neighbor as yourself, and you cannot do that by killing them. You are attempting to call what is sin "not sin." That is more dangerous than any tour you've been on.

You are correct, not everyone can do it, in fact only less than one percent do it. And only a small fraction of those ever have to pull a trigger. Many of these men are haunted for the rest of their lives by the fact they had to kill another person. Many of these men never come home. Why is that? To preserve the lives of the innocent; to give maintenance to the liberty of others and give them the right to hate and criticize the very military service members who give them their freedom. Many of these are Christians--the very children of God--who "from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight...men of whom the world [is] not worthy" (Hebrews 11:34 & 38).

Who are you to judge that they are Christians? Was Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David and Samuel commissioned by Christ to turn the other cheek? To bless their enemies? No...that was not their covenant with God, but ours is not the covenant of war and death, but of peace and love.

I close with this request: stop trying to shame the service members who are trying to preserve your freedom. Instead, put your energy towards stopping the real murderers, that is, those who condone and support abortion.

I will only tell the truth while staying on the topic of this thread.

Question for you...what are your thoughts on 1 Samuel 8?

 

[Digout]

That is absurd. How can you believe and not follow the Lord? Believing and discipleship go hand in hand.

Have you taken up the cross and follow Him daily?

Luke 14
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[Digout]

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Are you going to say that God himself is a transgressor because he has a sword?

His ways and thinking are different. You want to act God?

 

[least]

Originally Posted by least View Post
Yes, Service Members are required to know how to kill and destroy the enemies of the United States of America. We do not do so because we hate others. We do not do so because we love to murder. We do so because God has ordained it and someone must do it (Romans 13:1-4).

Originally Posted by 98cwitr View Post
Whoa, now that's a blatant twisting of Scripture to fit your own means. Carefully consider what you are saying and doing...a German Nazi during WWII could say the same thing about killing Jews that you just did! God ordains the life and death of every man, yet Christians are told to love your neighbor as yourself, and you cannot do that by killing them. You are attempting to call what is sin "not sin." That is more dangerous than any tour you've been on.

I want you to explain what Romans 13:1-4 means. Also, why are American Soldiers always put beside German Nazi's from WWII? As an American Soldier, my grandfather was in the unit that liberated the Jewish people and supporters from the Concentration camp at Dashau (over 30,000 had been murdered there).

Do you not know there is a difference between killing and murder? The two are differentiated in Exodus: God says to not murder, that is maliciously kill another person. Then we find that murderers were to be put to death, that is to be executed for judgement. He said, "don't murder," and then he told them to put to death (kill) those who murder.

You are correct in saying that not all Soldiers are Christians. In fact, most are not. And I will say this as well; The day I am ordered to maliciously kill any innocent person I will surrender my post (I say this arrogantly aloud, but I know it is only with God's help). I am a Soldier because I enlisted as such; I am a sinner because I was born that way. But by God's grace I am his child.

As a Christian Soldier, I bring balance and perspective to the nation's battles. There are some who will frolic about among the butterflies and daisies and cry out, "Sinner, sinner!" I have written of two battles: spiritual and physical. Yes, we as Christians must turn the other cheek and we are to love our enemies!! But dear friend we must also protect the innocent! So point your skinny finger at me and judge away; but remember, you are the one with a gun in your house, and you are the one who locks his door. And you are the one who willingly pays my salary, and the police officers salaries with your tax money. Perhaps one day when God pours out his wrath on America and you rise up and cry about the sinners..."it's the sinners!" Maybe like Nathan told David, you will realize, "You are the man!"

Okay, I am ranting now. BTW, I read 1 Samuel 8. My thoughts: Samuel's sons did not follow God as he did. The Israelite's perceived their need for leadership after Samuel was gone and asked for a king. This displeased God, because these men relied on Samuel and not God. God warned the Israelite's what would happen when they received a king. They wanted one anyway and so God gave them what they wanted. Lesson: we ought to dissolve our government and organize a Theocracy? What are your thoughts on that passage?

 

[least]

Have you taken up the cross and follow Him daily?

Luke 14
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Have you?

 

[Digout]

Have you?

No. Therefore, I am just a believer! I still don't have the courage to become a disciple!

 

[least]

No. Therefore, I am just a believer! I still don't have the courage to become a disciple!

What do you understand discipleship to mean? Is it not to deny your own way of living and follow the teaching of Christ? Being a disciple does not mean someone must be a vocational missionary. It means to follow the way of the Lord and be a witness to others of what Christ has done. Is that not how you see it?

 

[Digout]

What do you understand discipleship to mean? Is it not to deny your own way of living and follow the teaching of Christ? Being a disciple does not mean someone must be a vocational missionary. It means to follow the way of the Lord and be a witness to others of what Christ has done. Is that not how you see it?

That is a typical convenient understanding of many ignoring the asking of Jesus Christ that you have not addressed in reply no. 50!

 

[classicalhero]

Digout, with your last few replies it shows you don't know what you are talking about and we have been wasting our time trying to talk to you.

 

[least]

You say there is a difference between being a believer and being a follower, I just asked you to explain what the difference is. While the two english words are different (granted), the NT idea of a believer and a follower are basically the same. Perhaps the "two sides of the same coin" analogy works here: on one side, one follows because he believes; on the other side, one believes and naturally follows (if he does not follow it is likely that he doesn't believe).

This is me thinking out loud; I am not trying insult you. Perhaps if you would give me your break down of the passage in question I could understand your perspective. After all, you quoted it and I am only wanting to know how it applies to our conversation.

I will give you an answer to whether or not I am a follower of Christ. Yes; but not perfectly. I have a ways to go, much like those first disciples. I have given up my own pleasures and I have also failed to give up my own pleasures. O how perfection eludes me; but like Paul, I press onward! And I do so only because of his grace and power. I bet the same is true for you as well?

 

[98cwitr]

I want you to explain what Romans 13:1-4 means. Also, why are American Soldiers always put beside German Nazi's from WWII? As an American Soldier, my grandfather was in the unit that liberated the Jewish people and supporters from the Concentration camp at Dashau (over 30,000 had been murdered there).

Do you not know there is a difference between killing and murder? The two are differentiated in Exodus: God says to not murder, that is maliciously kill another person. Then we find that murderers were to be put to death, that is to be executed for judgement. He said, "don't murder," and then he told them to put to death (kill) those who murder.

You are correct in saying that not all Soldiers are Christians. In fact, most are not. And I will say this as well; The day I am ordered to maliciously kill any innocent person I will surrender my post (I say this arrogantly aloud, but I know it is only with God's help). I am a Soldier because I enlisted as such; I am a sinner because I was born that way. But by God's grace I am his child.

As a Christian Soldier, I bring balance and perspective to the nation's battles. There are some who will frolic about among the butterflies and daisies and cry out, "Sinner, sinner!" I have written of two battles: spiritual and physical. Yes, we as Christians must turn the other cheek and we are to love our enemies!! But dear friend we must also protect the innocent!

Who are innocent? The last two sentences conflict...and thus is the duality of man.

 

[rdclmn72]

The OT spiritual standards were incomplete, and hence not applicable to people who believe in Jesus!

How many gods can one serve when you deny the oneness of scripture?

 

[Digout]

Digout, with your last few replies it shows you don't know what you are talking about and we have been wasting our time trying to talk to you.

I am trying to be brief thinking many of you know the important concepts. Please ask if clarification is required specifically.

 

[Digout]

You say there is a difference between being a believer and being a follower, I just asked you to explain what the difference is. While the two english words are different (granted), the NT idea of a believer and a follower are basically the same. Perhaps the "two sides of the same coin" analogy works here: on one side, one follows because he believes; on the other side, one believes and naturally follows (if he does not follow it is likely that he doesn't believe).

This is me thinking out loud; I am not trying insult you. Perhaps if you would give me your break down of the passage in question I could understand your perspective. After all, you quoted it and I am only wanting to know how it applies to our conversation.

I will give you an answer to whether or not I am a follower of Christ. Yes; but not perfectly. I have a ways to go, much like those first disciples. I have given up my own pleasures and I have also failed to give up my own pleasures. O how perfection eludes me; but like Paul, I press onward! And I do so only because of his grace and power. I bet the same is true for you as well?

You are yet to address from where you left off from your reply no. 50.

 

[Digout]

How many gods can one serve when you deny the oneness of scripture?

Oneness (not distorted oneness doctrine) is pretty much there when we believe in Jesus. The OT is the foundation and the NT is the superstructure.