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mreeed

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Some scattered thoughts, prompted by another forum discussion...

I have no formalized training, but I am a full time caregiver for my friend's mother who has Alzheimer's for the last 2 years and there is such a difference between when it is the disease or confusion talking and when you get the glimpses of 'them', the way they used to be. She is somewhat nominally Catholic; I don't know where she is at spiritually, or how to 'reach' her in that way. Not that I am overtly trying. But the part of me that used to wonder if it was even ethical to try (conjuring the stereotype of an elderly person easily conned) has realized that humanly the idea of it in the case of the disease that I've experienced, is that conversion is that much more impossible. After all, short term memory is 99% gone. I cannot ask her about even the last two minutes and expect a reliable answer.

She likes to sing though, it's mostly just here and there. But on a couple of occasions she would sing through the hymnbook for an hour or more, and this is probably the happiest I've seen her. My friend who is power of attorney and whose family of 9 is the main family factor in her life is a strong noncatholic Christian.

The different ways of being/thinking particularly in the lady I care for, seem very disconnected from each other. As I'm researching more it seems like dementia affects more the left side of the brain (language, sequencing, linear thinking, math, logic) than the right (rhythm, intuition, feeling, holistic thinking, arts) and I wonder how that plays in.

I've gained a little faith in my research it seems. Watching Teepa Snow has probably helped. I don't believe a person with Alzheimer's/dementia is beyond God's reach still, but I wonder what kind of method He would use. I think this kind of disease can be somewhat of an object lesson on both sides of the fence. When it seems like the person in what we can see of their core being is in such a weakened state, and the enemy has such an opportunistic advantage to gain a foothold in the mind based on false logic or premises.

A previous pastor of mine seemed to have some initial sense that his mind was being affected by something, I don't know if he would have said that it was affecting his relationship to people as opposed to more general day to day pastoral functions on occasion, but there were others where his actions towards them seemed so before he retired.

In God choosing between Jacob and Esau before they had done anything, I wonder what that says about the essence of who we are as people, if possibly one mode of being (ie right brain vs left as a crude approximation of a starting point?) comes in some way before the other. An essence that perhaps a disease like this may lock away inaccessible, but perhaps does not (necessarily) ultimately destroy.

I think the prevalence of this disease in the current day and age is no coincidence. It has a bit of the flavour of Romans 1, and our society (not individuals particularly) receiving a due penalty in ourselves for not retaining the knowledge of God so that He darkens our collective foolish heart. If that is the way to put it.

I watched an interesting video recently on the progression of the disease through stages, following one caregiver's journey with her mom, who was diagnosed fairly late in the disease (first half of video), and some of the early and later indicators. But she did not know if her mother was a Christian or at that point how to find out (second half). It was important to her to know that she would one day be able to communicate with her mother again in heaven. And then the relief and peace she felt finding among her mother's things, papers indicating multiple 'yes' responses to key and specific questions of faith, and watching her mother sing/worship along with a singer/songwriter friend of hers during a home visit.

I don't doubt that God can KEEP a person saved despite dementia, though their status may be even more hidden from view than for the average person, whom we are already cautioned not to judge. God knows who are His, and none can take them from His hand nor separate us from the love of Christ.

But is it possible for a person to GET saved despite having dementia? We hear of Muslims and others having dreams of Christ that point them to salvation. Couldn't God break through even the hallucinations dementia sufferers experience? So much is taken away from them that makes them who they are in the physical world we see. Near the end of life, what remains?

These are just some of my scattered musings on the topic today, anyone else have thoughts, scriptures or experience to share?
 

Southernscotty

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I cannot answer this question but let me add 2nd Cor 6:2 For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.
Do not put off accepting Jesus NOW because it may just be your only chance before something happens.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I think the prevalence of this disease in the current day and age is no coincidence. It has a bit of the flavour of Romans 1, and our society (not individuals particularly) receiving a due penalty in ourselves for not retaining the knowledge of God so that He darkens our collective foolish heart. If that is the way to put it.

I watched an interesting video recently on the progression of the disease through stages
It seems you want to know God's Way, His Purpose and Plan,
and man's way is not indicative of God's Way - man's ways cannot show, nor can they know, God's Way(s). Man failed. Man fails.

God Succeeds.
 
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mreeed

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To me it seems different if a person is born with a mental challenge, such as Downs or what have you, as compared to a disease one gets later in life that is typically not recovered from. No question from me that someone with Downs can be saved; in some ways I think these people may have a special light that the rest of us don't have. But would or could someone who has been accountable all their lives regress back to unaccountable if they have a disease that makes them more and more childlike?
 
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dreadnought

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Some scattered thoughts, prompted by another forum discussion...

I have no formalized training, but I am a full time caregiver for my friend's mother who has Alzheimer's for the last 2 years and there is such a difference between when it is the disease or confusion talking and when you get the glimpses of 'them', the way they used to be. She is somewhat nominally Catholic; I don't know where she is at spiritually, or how to 'reach' her in that way. Not that I am overtly trying. But the part of me that used to wonder if it was even ethical to try (conjuring the stereotype of an elderly person easily conned) has realized that humanly the idea of it in the case of the disease that I've experienced, is that conversion is that much more impossible. After all, short term memory is 99% gone. I cannot ask her about even the last two minutes and expect a reliable answer.

She likes to sing though, it's mostly just here and there. But on a couple of occasions she would sing through the hymnbook for an hour or more, and this is probably the happiest I've seen her. My friend who is power of attorney and whose family of 9 is the main family factor in her life is a strong noncatholic Christian.

The different ways of being/thinking particularly in the lady I care for, seem very disconnected from each other. As I'm researching more it seems like dementia affects more the left side of the brain (language, sequencing, linear thinking, math, logic) than the right (rhythm, intuition, feeling, holistic thinking, arts) and I wonder how that plays in.

I've gained a little faith in my research it seems. Watching Teepa Snow has probably helped. I don't believe a person with Alzheimer's/dementia is beyond God's reach still, but I wonder what kind of method He would use. I think this kind of disease can be somewhat of an object lesson on both sides of the fence. When it seems like the person in what we can see of their core being is in such a weakened state, and the enemy has such an opportunistic advantage to gain a foothold in the mind based on false logic or premises.

A previous pastor of mine seemed to have some initial sense that his mind was being affected by something, I don't know if he would have said that it was affecting his relationship to people as opposed to more general day to day pastoral functions on occasion, but there were others where his actions towards them seemed so before he retired.

In God choosing between Jacob and Esau before they had done anything, I wonder what that says about the essence of who we are as people, if possibly one mode of being (ie right brain vs left as a crude approximation of a starting point?) comes in some way before the other. An essence that perhaps a disease like this may lock away inaccessible, but perhaps does not (necessarily) ultimately destroy.

I think the prevalence of this disease in the current day and age is no coincidence. It has a bit of the flavour of Romans 1, and our society (not individuals particularly) receiving a due penalty in ourselves for not retaining the knowledge of God so that He darkens our collective foolish heart. If that is the way to put it.

I watched an interesting video recently on the progression of the disease through stages, following one caregiver's journey with her mom, who was diagnosed fairly late in the disease (first half of video), and some of the early and later indicators. But she did not know if her mother was a Christian or at that point how to find out (second half). It was important to her to know that she would one day be able to communicate with her mother again in heaven. And then the relief and peace she felt finding among her mother's things, papers indicating multiple 'yes' responses to key and specific questions of faith, and watching her mother sing/worship along with a singer/songwriter friend of hers during a home visit.

I don't doubt that God can KEEP a person saved despite dementia, though their status may be even more hidden from view than for the average person, whom we are already cautioned not to judge. God knows who are His, and none can take them from His hand nor separate us from the love of Christ.

But is it possible for a person to GET saved despite having dementia? We hear of Muslims and others having dreams of Christ that point them to salvation. Couldn't God break through even the hallucinations dementia sufferers experience? So much is taken away from them that makes them who they are in the physical world we see. Near the end of life, what remains?

These are just some of my scattered musings on the topic today, anyone else have thoughts, scriptures or experience to share?
If you understand that the Lord is motivated purely by love, and understand he is all-powerful, then you know the answer to this question.
 
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sdowney717

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God can do anything, God can make anyone spiritually alive.
God also gives people over to a reprobate mind. A mind at the end could be heavily degraded to the point of insanity and never would they seek for repentance healthy or sick in their head.

Your really can not know the mind of God, you can not presume to know what God will do.
Broad is the way that leads to destruction and many walk on that path. The ones on the broad path are both healthy and sick, young and old.

At some point in life a person actively chooses to sin willfully against what they know to not do.
 
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Dan the deacon

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IMO these type of people are like children inside of adult body so age of accountability might work . You give these people the gospel normal way might do it few times maybe one time person will understand .
Just where in scripture does one find this "age of accountability"? I think it is a man made idea.
 
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Ron Gurley

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A mentally disabling disease of Mind/Will/Emotions (Body/Soul combo)
does not preclude salvation ... which is a spiritual change in the Spirit.

John 3 (NASB)...born again of the SPIRIT
3b...unless one is born again (spiritually from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God...
8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going;
so is everyone who is "born of the Spirit",,,
12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. (Jesus)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; (CRUXIFIED!)
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal (SPIRITUAL) life.
 
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Dan the deacon

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To me it seems different if a person is born with a mental challenge, such as Downs or what have you, as compared to a disease one gets later in life that is typically not recovered from. No question from me that someone with Downs can be saved; in some ways I think these people may have a special light that the rest of us don't have. But would or could someone who has been accountable all their lives regress back to unaccountable if they have a disease that makes them more and more childlike?
In my much younger days, I worked in a nursing home. Many of the residents were folks I had known some years before. Elderly Christian women I knew as Sunday school teacher had seemingly become very foulmouthed and rude.

I do not believe God holds their dementia spoken words and actions against them. What I saw was more like a satanic ploy to harm our fsith.
 
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Zauberflote

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This is a great thread. My mom is in very late stages of at least one type of dementia. She is a lifelong Christian, but in the past few weeks it has become evident that taking her to church will never happen again, and watching the broadcast is confusing and agitating The disease has stolen her ability to spontaneously remember grace. I believe she is stuck as about a 5 yr old much of the time, with her Congregational upbringing. The horrible thing is that since her working memory is about 1.5 SECONDS, and her link between sin and grace/salvation is dead, empty, destroyed, glued to prions, she spends much time agonizing over being a not good person. We can remind her in dozens of ways that God will always live her, and will always forgive het as he has already, and her face will shine with emotion as she gazes at us with unspeakable joy for 20 seconds. And then she's forgotten what was going on, and remembers only that she's not a good person and can never be a good person and is not good enough, and round 2 commences.

She's in the hospital recovering from emergency hip surgery, so is hideously disoriented anyway, but we had a long, deeply intense discussion about Love, most of it being us reassuring her that she/we lived people because God loved us first, snd people we love respond with love. Around and around we went. This sort of reinforces a previous poster's comment about right brain/left brain. These discussions are what she used to delight in, lead, and be a spiritual mentor for so many many folks with.

It's just awful that she is trapped in her head with that childlike fear of never being "good" enough. I pray every night that God will fill all those empty spaces, physically empty of brain, with the warm oil of his love and peace as she sleeps.

On a similar note, when my autistic, developmentally delayed son was 14, God grabbed him around the neck, gave him a noogy and a resounding back-slapping hug, and shouted at him, "You're MINE!" He's 29 now and his theology is a bit wonky, but I have no fear. It's clear God took the lead on this Time
 
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sungaunga

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Nobody can be saved, apart from faith in Jesus Christ. Anybody who gets a disease like Alzheimer’s disease or dementia reaches a point in old age where they no longer can process information, has still had a life before that and still had the opportunity to live up to the life they had and to believe if that was their heart’s desire. So those people are culpable. You have your rational lifetime.

In regard to somebody who’s born with Down’s syndrome or somebody born with some kind of a genetic deformity and they cannot understand, then I believe that God deals with that individual in a very special way because no one can be saved apart from faith in Christ but no one can be damned apart from unbelief, and those people can neither believe nor disbelieve.
 
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Zauberflote

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Sungaunga, thanks for responseMom knew about her salvation when her brain was whole. Dementia does far worse things to the brain than Down or autism or whatever does. I was commenting on the pain she is suffering emotionally because in this broken world, disease exists. This disease has broken her brain, her physical brain, just at the spots which used to know her salvation. She still knows her savior, but how awful to have to go through the horrible cycle of fear/emotional pain/anxiety until someone understands what you need, and reminds you in many different ways of Jesus' love. Imagine, if you will, that you KNOW you are going to hell. You KNOW! Somebody tells you you know Jesus etcetcetc. You believe them. For 1.5 seconds, because you have dementia but you don't know it. You KNOW you are going to hell!!!!!! You KNOW!
Imagine that this is your life. You KNOW you are going to hell. Imagine. This is her dementia. All the time. It hurts us, and it hurts her. Very much. This might have been the wrong thread to post on-- I was looking for those with experience similar to mine.
 
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mreeed

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Zauberflote, I am so sorry to read of your experience, it must be heartbreaking to see your mom go through this painful cycle multiple times a day. Does she still know how to read? Maybe having key verses and/or explanations nearby could be prompts for her when family themselves aren't around to explain. Or some kind of recording(s) that could be played on a loop and extend the time she has this clarity for without the time for her to come back into this cycle. I wonder if something like this played overnight could register in the subconscious of someone who has dementia?

I wonder if you can get her to explain her own salvation in her own simple words in the brief space of time that she does get it, and record it, if the familiarity of her own voice speaking might give her a greater reality check? For example, I know my lady is much more grounded in reality with her family than when only me or other caregivers are there, probably at least a year or two's worth.

Does your mother know/accept she has dementia, or does she forget this too? If she has a working memory of this, or the humility that others may know better than her, I wonder if a simpler explanation basically explaining that she 'figured this out already' and it's all taken care of would also be helpful. The lady I work with, I don't generally refer to it, obviously it can be an sensitive thing, but there are times when I see her confusion and her mind trying to work and come up with an explanation (did I have a stroke, no you have Alzheimers), and on occasions like this, the real reason is helpful.

One common area of confusion can be the person with dementia reverting back to a previous time. They may think of themselves as younger than they are and reinterpret the world to fit that scenario (ie a daughter might be referred to as a sister). I like to refer to hard physical evidence at hand to bring them back to reality. I might ask my lady 'What colour is your hair', and she may answer as if in the past, but if I can show her that her hair is grey it can disrupt/refocus the faulty thinking, and put it to rest even if she herself still doesn't quite put 2 and 2 together. Or to deflect the fact that her husband has passed away if she is insisting he will be coming home that night, I might ask her to show me her husband's clothes (not there).

(True story: Before starting what I do, I was at the hospital with my sister a few years ago in her late 30's once and she had an episode where she thought and was talking as if she was 20 years old, thinking our younger sister was still a baby, our mother was still alive, etc, it was super weird. But asking how long her hair was snapped her out of it, as it was much different than at that time.)

Maybe this is a question that replays in her mind *because* she has had to answer it for so many. Her mind is turning over a familiar thing, but questions are a lot easier to remember than answers. Well, right answers, anyway. My lady tends to skip over the questions a lot of times, often going straight to acting on her faulty assumptions.

Or build snippets of explanations into your everyday conversations. "I'm sorry for (something)...I'm glad Jesus forgives us when we are sorry, and we don't have to worry.

I am glad your mother can understand your explanations, even if it is only for such a short time. (I don't think my lady would be able to think at that level anymore.) How long has this been going on? To a certain degree, in my experience thus far, there are stages and themes of agitation that may come and go, so hopefully this will be a (short!) stage to go through, and her mind will eventually release this fixation.
 
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Zauberflote

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@mreeed ....will you come care for my mom? :amen: This Amen is for your wise and compassionate care of your lady.
Trying to get to your post in order here. No, she doesn't even hold a book/magazine anymore. An awful complication is that she just got back to her facility after having a partial hip replacement for a completely broken hip. We had two VERY deep conversations in the hospital that featured not only this cycle I'm speaking of, but language which clearly indicates she is working on the idea of dying. Given how miserable she is, death and Jesus would be a mercy.

I LOVE all of your suggestions!! The recording one is genius. Perhaps we could have one of brother doing his quiet beautiful thing. And playing it at night-- you may be on to something there. We got her a smart tv last fall for DVDs and such; she's not watched broadcast TV since my brother was a teenager and they'd watch Jeopardy once a week en famille.
Will have to come back later to respond, as your very comforting words have touched me deeply. I can't find the "comforting hug" emoji or would insert it here!
 
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mreeed

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Zauberflote, I know it is hard to see your mother like this, all the things she has been losing. It sounds like you and your mother feel your emotions very deeply, of course this is such an emotional time for you. Probably many moments of more clarity may be the toughest, when she knows clearest what is happening to her and what is wrong. But if she can get relief from the physical pain, I pray she will have the mercy to forget some of the bad stuff more often. Being bedridden may be easier to bear when you don't remember how mobile you used to be. Living somewhere else not as bad in the times when you don't remember your previous home. I don't know the degree she is down that memory road, but there may still be parts of it that are worse for you than for her, for whatever that is worth. A bit of a silver lining in losing memory, perhaps?

I hope your mother has good care at the home she is at. Talk to the people who attend her, especially if there are any that take the time to talk with her - how do they gauge her mood? Her focus? Connection to reality? You and your familiar loving words and actions are clearly a great blessing for your mother, but when you are not there, the lesser familiarity of the people around her might give her more of the benefits of forgetfulness also.

But I love the way your mother is also capable of deep joy in that same clarity, and thus forgetting her misery at times. Don't just record her voice, take pictures/video of her with that joy on her face to remind her that it's not all bad, and this is the joy she has to look forward to when she is in heaven with Jesus :)

Sing to her, sing with her where she can. The trying to think it through happens on the more broken side of the brain, but singing is on the other side, and typically more intact. Hopefully listening to these familiar words and tunes can bring back some of their comfort too.

Singing goes so deep...I was so encouraged this weekend, it was the 30th year since my first mom's death, my youngest brothers were only 3 and 6 at the time, and the last 10ish years they have intellectually gotten into the new atheism and rejection of God, the youngest more so, I think with the much weaker specific family connection. (But very thankfully have remained 'good kids', also despite some aspects of parental life going squirrelly after her death.) We had a huge family reunion on that side, with aunts and uncles from out of town, and Sunday night some of us were sitting around the piano, singing songs from that time in our lives. My brothers were singing right along with us, and my youngest brother seemed even to know most of them, much more than the other one! When he was 3 he would sing often with his orange bat as guitar, I had no idea how much of this he had retained!
 
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Gup20

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[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

Abraham was made righteous (saved) for his faith in the gospel. How much of it do you think he understood? Very little. Only the most cursory version of the gospel. So we see that belief is more important than understanding. Then, even the infirmed who are capable of belief can be saved... and i'm willing to bet that there is a special grace for those who are incapable of enough understanding to believe.

I think sin is probably ineffective on those who are incapable of understanding The Law.

[Rom 7:9 NASB] 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;​

i would think that the infirmed, mentally disabled, and aborted babies qualify in this category.
 
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