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Can a person love without the Ten Commandments

VictorC

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Just after Jesus said that "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven", Jesus told us that "That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:19-20).
The scribes and Pharisees were more compliant with the law than any of us have been. A LOT more compliant.
Unless you exceed their righteousness, you aren't going to make it.
Compare that with those who broke the commandments while Moses had jurisdiction, and still made it to salvation.
Now, I'm curious to know your prescription for exceeding the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.

Where in Scripture to you find anyone who has placed his or her trust in the Lord Jesus Christ being put to shame? For Romans 10:11 says that "Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed".

And where do you find a way around "their sins and iniquities will I remember no more"?
Where do you find your works are able to add to His righteousness?

It was not "they" who asked that question.
Please review Matthew 22:35-40 and answer these questions:
  • Who asked the question for the greatest commandment?
  • From where was the answer qualified to be from?
  • What was hung on that and the second greatest commandment?
  • Why did Jesus quote from what Moses said, instead of the tables of stone?
  • Where is the mention that these commandments are carried forward from the place they came from and into the new covenant?
Where do you find the source of where these great commandments are written into our hearts?
Lastly, how is a death sentence and a yoke "which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear" a joy to bear?

Where did you find "missing a sabbath" a sin differentiated from the entire time you have failed to keep the sabbath holy according to the commandment in Exodus 20:8?
Where do you find yourself able to qualify your sin by IF?
Where do you find that we Gentiles have ever had or have the covenant of the ten commandments?

I hope I was clear enough in my explanation. Feel free to ask for clarification if needed. Thanks for reading.
You're welcome.
I hope you don't mind all the questions I seek clarification on.

Victor
 
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Man-ofGod

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I know you wern't adressing me, but I have a question or two,if you would be so kind. BTW the verse doesn't say "by faith, we observe the law".

I always Joke with my wife that God would have never chosen me as a prophet. I have the worse English and I have a terrible memory. So if it does not come out clear please forgive me and definitely ask for clarification as you did. With that said I wasn't quoting verbatim but just my understanding of the passage. The actual passage reads

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Are you saying we are to be judged unto salvation by the basis of how well we obeyed the law?
No, what I am saying here is by your love for God, you want to obey the law and will do what you can do obey the law. Remember only God truly knows your heart. So its by accepting Jesus's grace that you then by faith uphold the law. Because you love God and want to do this for his love. Of Course we will still sin or struggle with it, however by allowing Jesus take out the garbage from with in you so that you can become your real self, this is what is meant by upholding the law. Basically it means actions not inactions. We are taking a sincere approach to upholding the law out of love.

If so, how well do we have to keep it? Are we judged for salvation on how hard we try, or maybe the general direction of our lives? Do good intentions play a part in our salvation? How good is good enough? Is it "I do my best and God does the rest"?
I believe our sincerity plays a huge roll. Again, if we genuinely love god and accept his grace, we keep his commandments out of love. Its one thing to read it, its another thing to experience it. Here is a perfect example that one pastor gave about grace and law. I am going to quote his story verbatim. Little lengthy but worth a read I think.

These are honest questions I had as an Adventist years ago and I was wondering if you could answer them for me, preferably with scripture.
Thanks! Ricker
You know I read your post and conveniently didn't see your request to answer it solely with scripture. If your looking for a place in scripture where it makes it ok to break Gods laws, you wont find it. However, I would submit that thats why Jesus died for our sins(this is how Satins control over sin and death was defeated). Because God knew that we could not obey the law to the letter(this goes back to the forbidden fruit). I would also submit that we do not have to obey the law to the letter to be saved, but we do have to in our heart want to love God. When we love God we then try to keep Gods commandments. Even if it becomes difficult at times. Example: persecution.

Thanks for listening Ricker, and feel free to PM me if you want to get truly in depth.
 
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VictorC

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Romans 3:31
I had commented on the use of this verse used out-of-context in an earlier post covenant, part 1:

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

"Upholding the law" is used to justify these statements asserting the imputation of righteousness without the law that are contained in the writings of the law.

Romans 3:31 is not reversing the arguement concluded only a few verses earlier in Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law".
The police don't wave you down from the side of the road.
This story has been modified to avoid the observation that anytime you're caught speeding, that policeman also sped with complete impunity to the law in order to catch the offender.
One of these two characters is a servant of the law.
The other is a son who is sovereign as the adopted of the law's Creator.

See if you can figure this one out. See Matthew 17:24-26 and Galatians 4:1-7 for more insight, if you're interested.

Victor
 
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Man-ofGod

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Good thing that we do not have to. We are saved by grace by the Lord Jesus Christ. Victor answer me this question, is it ok to kill, murder, steal, commit adultery, not honor your parents, covet another mans wife, blaspheme or go against any of Jesus's teachings in the Sermon of the Mounn? Don't just quote scripture, I know what the Bible says. I am asking for Victor C's honest answer. If so, please explain why?

Where in Scripture to you find anyone who has placed his or her trust in the Lord Jesus Christ being put to shame? For Romans 10:11 says that "Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed".
When did I ever say that someone who has put their faith and trust in the lord is put to shame? Do not twist my words Victor.

And where do you find a way around "their sins and iniquities will I remember no more"?
Where do you find your works are able to add to His righteousness?
Your referring to Hebrews 10:17 and Jeremiah 31:33-34
There is no way around anything in the Bible.
"Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." Romans 3:31 As long as their is faith we are upholding the law. If we make it a point not to uphold the law then do we really have faith? Anyone can believe but few can take their belief and put it into action which is what faith is to me.

Let me ask you a question, is Jesus sacrifice enough to be saved or is their something else. Is every Muslim/Atheist/Christian or the whole world for that matter automatically saved and going to heaven from sacrifice of Jesus? Then you should know that it is through coming to Christ that we receive his blessing in which God will no longer remember our sins.. But take heave for

Hebrews 10:26-30 says:

And you still fail to answer what laws God wrote on our hearts?

Hebrew 10:16:
“This is the new covenant I will make
with my people on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their mind
What laws, Victor, is God writing in our hearts?

Jeremiah 33:33

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people
If not the the laws he written with his finger, what law is he putting on our hearts?

To answer your final question.

Matthew 11:28-30

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Through Jesus, I have rest. Since I follow Jesus, he makes it easy for me to uphold the law and therefore it becomes joyful. It is different to be under the law then to be following the law when your under God's grace. No one said you can not do both. In fact quite the contrary. Let me ask you is it a sin to follow Jesus and follow the 10 commandments?

This is going to be a long day if you are going to sift through my every word like scripture. Go ahead and put when in place of IF and see if that makes you feel better.

It is true that the Israelites were actually placed under the covenant of the 10 commandments. But that does not mean that it does not apply to man. To illustrate this, if you were a gentile during Moses time who had knowledge of Gods covenant with the Israelites and you even believed in the God of the Israelites. Would you or would you be not sinning by breaking any of the laws stated in the 10 commandments? In fact is it a sin today to disobey any of Gods commandments? Is it a sin to covet, yes or no? I want a yes or no answer on this.
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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By the law comes the knowledge of sin, yes.
But not forgiveness for it.
Not deliverance from it.
Not reconciliation with God above and beyond it.

Those things come only through Christ. Mercy, grace and truth came only by Christ.

John 1:17 - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Someone shared this prayer with Moriah some 9 months ago. While it bes obviously written for use by them whats in need of deliverance and having trouble with forces of darkness it still nevertheless contains beautiful truths of the Gospel pertinent to every man, woman and child. Please read it carefully ... all of it bes based in scriptural truth.
The Power of the Blood
Father, I thank you for the precious blood of the LORD Jesus Christ as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. I thank you that the blood pleads for me mercy and all the provisions of your grace. I thank you that the blood gives me access into your holy presence and has purchased for me complete salvation.

I declare, affirm and bear witness to what the Word of God says the blood has done for me. I am justified and forgiven by the blood of Jesus. The blood cleanses me from every sin and removes God's wrath (His just judgement of sin) from me (through His sacrificial love). I am sanctified, wholly set apart through the offering of the body of the Lord Jesus Christ once for all. I have been purchased for God's eternal possession by the blood of Jesus - his shed blood on the Cross avails for for me.

The blood has redeemed me from guilt and the power of sin, has broken every curse and restored me with blessings and I am set free from any oppression affecting generations of my family line. The blood of Jesus purges my conscience and sets me free from the dead works of religion and false belief, in order that I may serve the living God. The blood redeems me from the curse of the law (through not being able to keep it) through grace and releases the blessings of God in my life.

The blood is God's covenant seal upon me. I am secure and made safe from all evil and every guile of the enemy by the blood of Jesus. I am victorious over Satan who is defeated, destroyed, driven out and disarmed by the power of his blood. By the blood I overcome the evil one and destroy his every work. The blood is my assurance of God's goodness and the binding guarantee of his faithfulness in all situations. The blood is my legal claim to every promise and the entrance into my inheritance in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen.​
Moriah's friend bes wise. He said Moriah should pray this every day. It bes not able back when he first sent it, because They bes overtaken it so completely. But now since its fast a couple weeks ago They bes not so completely controlling allatimes, and it thinks it will do so.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Who are you quoting BFA? If you are going to quote someone at least leave their name in the quote. It seems odd that you do this.

. . . . . are you asking me whose post I was replying to? If so, I replying to K4C's post #98.

BFA
 
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VictorC

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Good thing that we do not have to. We are saved by grace by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Your modus operandi is to proclaim a return to your works to add to that grace, that you earlier mentioned wasn't enough. My provocative question is designed to make you think of an answer, as it is entirely appropriate for every Christian to have an answer for:
I'm curious to know your prescription for exceeding the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.
Victor answer me this question, is it ok to kill, murder, steal, commit adultery, not honor your parents, covet another mans wife, blaspheme or go against any of Jesus's teachings in the Sermon of the Mounn?
A popular line of thought amoung Adventists (and some other groups) is that the decalogue is merely a guideline for living right.
It is not.
It is law, and contains penalties for infractions.
Death.
Don't just quote scripture,
We could both just ramble on, but no one wants to know what I think.
We want to know what the Bible actually teaches, and that is why I ask for Scriptural support for your ideas, and I am quick to stand aside and quote Scripture instead of taking liberties with my own carnal ramblings.
I know what the Bible says.
The reason that I asked pointed questions about "the greatest commandment" passage in Matthew 22:35-40 is to cause you to return to that passage and read it for yourself, as the conclusions you thought this passage led to were unsupported.
Likewise, I added the context to Romans 3:31 to show that this passage does not support the conclusions you thought it did.
There is a great danger in assuming the sound-bite theology you have heard is supported by the Scriptures, when you haven't verified these passages for yourself.
When did I ever say that someone who has put their faith and trust in the lord is put to shame? Do not twist my words Victor.
Yet you equated "missing a sabbath" with sin, and you haven't even found a sabbath that has survived the demise of the Mosaic covenant.
I have some news that may shock you:
There is no such thing as a sabbath ordinance outside of Moses, who has lost his jurisdiction 2000 years ago.
Yet you made this nonexistant ordinance a litmus test for obedience to the Gospel, and you haven't perceived that this work of yours is a necessary addition to salvation by grace.

Romans 11:5-6
5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I had also quoted this from Romans 4:3-5 as added context to Romans 3:31 earlier:

3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

What do you have to add to the righteousness of Jesus, who has justified us, and not us ourselves? God has already determined everyone disobedient in Romans 11:32, and you aren't going to reverse His decree by becoming "obedient" to that which you are disobedient to.
Your referring to Hebrews 10:17 and Jeremiah 31:33-34
But I believe that you have dismissed the qualification that Jeremiah 31:32 and Hebrews 8:9 determine to the law written into our hearts and minds:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt - this indicates that Sinai is not the source of the law written into us.
I believe you haven't been reading my points, as you have returned yet again to this sound-bite from Romans 3:31 minus the context it comes from.
Hebrews 10:26-30 says:
Please do me a favor - don't place your quotes in the quote function. It seems the intuitive thing to do, but your Scripture quotes don't come through when I quote you.

And you still fail to answer what laws God wrote on our hearts?
What laws, Victor, is God writing in our hearts?
If not the the laws he written with his finger, what law is he putting on our hearts?
Actually, I haven't failed to find that law written into our hearts and minds.
I had earlier linked you to my work on this subject in a post entitled God replaces the schoolmaster <-- that is a link to it.
I have found that you have dismissed this law's qualification of not being according to Sinai, and here you are trying to write Sinai into your heart.
That's what sound-bite theology, ignoring the context, leads you to conclude.
The burden of Jesus isn't hard, but the burden of Moses was unbearable, just as Peter declared it to be in my previous quote from Acts 15:10:
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Please read this chapter, for this statement was presented at the Jerusalem council that met to consider the necessity to become circumcised and follow the law of Moses (the covenant he mediated, the ten commandments). Peter observed that God had accepted the Gentiles already, and they never had nor observed the law themselves. If the law didn't matter to God, then why should it matter to us?
That was Peter's discourse in a nutshell.
In fact quite the contrary. Let me ask you is it a sin to follow Jesus and follow the 10 commandments?
Let Paul take the podium:

Romans 7:1-7
1: Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2: For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3: So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4: Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5: For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6: But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul equated trying to serve the law and Christ together with adultery.
You can determine for yourself if it is okay to commit adultery.

Notice too, that we are delivered from the same law that contains the words "thou shalt not covet", which is found in Exodus 20:17 - the ten commandments.
As a Gentile, I will answer your question just as you have posed it, assuming that it is more than 2000 years ago and Moses still stood between me and the promises given to Abraham:
NO.
A Gentile cannot break a law he does not have.
As Romans 2:12 says, that Gentile had no hope, "as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law".
Ephesians 2:11-16 explains this relationship the Gentiles had before Christ came and abolished the Mosaic covenant, and I encourage you to read this passage. In a nutshell, they had no hope at all.

Victor
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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We could both just ramble on, but no one wants to know what I think.
Just to pick a nit ... Moriah bes very interested indeed to hear what you think, VictorC. You bes a servant of the Most High God what shows to us the way of salvation!!!


We want to know what the Bible actually teaches, and that is why ... I am quick to stand aside and quote Scripture instead of taking liberties with my own carnal ramblings.
God has blessed you indeed with an excellent grasp of His word, and the grace to speak firm and straight but without offensiveness. Praise God that He has sent you to this forum as His servant to break open the Bread of Life which comes from the Lord.
 
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VictorC

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Just to pick a nit ... Moriah bes very interested indeed to hear what you think, VictorC. You bes a servant of the Most High God what shows to us the way of salvation!!!
Nay, I don't deserve the credit that He alone is worthy of!
I enjoy your kind words and the edification that they produce
The Lord has driven me to my knees, and my increasing knowledge of His word makes me more aware each day that I am unworthy of His purchase - and I hope I can give away the knowledge the Spirit of the Living God has freely given me.

Victor
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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Moriah has been thinking while reading yours above and writing this below ... why in the Beforetime could it not comprehend these things what leaps out to it so readily now from Paul's writings? Why could it not grasp these things 25 years ago and avoid going down into the Abyss? Bes it because God had forsaken it? (it asks rhetorically, we know He will NEVER leaves us nor forsake us) Bes it because it never had the Spirit of God but only a counterfeit from satan? (some have advanced this theory -- it does not agree for else how would it know Him if it had not met Him personally?) OR could it have been that based on the theology Moriah trustingly as a brand new babe in the faith swallowed hook, line and sinker, it simply bes blinded to these glorious liberating truths? Ahhh that might be more the case. For scripture itself states as much!

2 Corinthians 3:12-18:
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Moriah could not see those things NOT because Paul's writings bes "too hard to understand" (as some claimed even in his day) but because the very plain speech of them bes obscured when one has been spiritually BLINDFOLDED by the VEIL which covers the mind and heart when Moses or the OT bes read. That veil bes ONLY taken away in Christ. Moriah had come to Christ, but when it entered the SDA denomination it came to believe naively -- primarily because of their (mostly excellent, though in places flawed) grasp of eschatology and the spiritual conflict permeating our world -- that their soteriology had to be "the truth" that other churches had been missing all these centuries. They (SDAs) focused on the laws of Moses (moral and dietary) and thus placed a veil over its mind and heart in the process so that it could no longer grasp the precious grace of Christ which had touched it in the first place to bring it out of darkness into His glorious light of the Gospel.

And so it came to pass that not even a full year later (1982-83) as it began to have serious difficulties it could not make sense of anything establishing the kind of spiritual power or position it might have trusted in fully and entirely IN CHRIST because it bes too concerned with how its "performance" and falling short and failing God and "disobediences" bes keeping God from coming to its aid in its helpless plight. And this only got worse when the dark ones came and began to overtake its mind, of course. It did not help that the SDAs back then bes not into really comprehending spiritual warfare on a personal and literalistic level like that (don't know if that has changed or not; doesn't seem like it), so it had NO CLUE what bes happening to it at first -- just lots of terror and pain and scary things at night, loss of control over its own thoughts, feelings, speech, actions, etc. which prayer not only failed to remedy but actually made WAY WAY WORSE by triggering these "attacks" -- and neither did THEY (SDAs around it) have a clue, until one dear soul finally caught on, bless him, and brought it a book to read that opened its eyes and enabled it to name its affliction. Then, of course, all "proverbial" broke loose because SDA theology does not allow for people to be helpless or afflicted so surely you must be faking, trying to avoid responsibility for your sins, and pulling off high drama as an attention-seeking device. You could not really be suffering because after all, "we have the truth", so the only answer "we" (SDAs) have to give you bes you bes sinning against God doing all that and you'd better knock it off. Yeah right people. Try telling a paraplegic he'd better knock it off with that wheelchair nonsense. Try telling a schizophrenic they'd better knock it off with those delusions and hallucinations. Try telling an Alzheimer's victim they'd better knock it off with pretending they don't remember things. And so forth and so on.

But it digresses. Oh, wait, it forgot verse 18 up there in the Corinthian mix:
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
What a wonderful promise. We don't need to try to force our lives to conform to reams and reams of endless rules and regulations, a hideous YOKE that neither we nor our (spiritual) fathers (the OT Hebrews) could ever bear. No, all we need to do bes to behold the glory of the Lord -- His love, His power, His compassion, His tender mercies, His limitless grace which abounds ALL THE MORE wherever sin abounds -- and HIS Spirit will change us into that same image as we eat His flesh and drink His blood (consume His Word, behold Him through it as in a glass, let it come alive in us). Just like Moses lifted up that serpent in the wilderness: look and live. Just look and live.
 
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VictorC

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But it digresses. Oh, wait, it forgot verse 18 up there in the Corinthian mix:
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
All the while members here have been looking to the law of Moses to change their lives, you brought to the forefront the promise that God Himself will change us as He pleases!
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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All the while members here have been looking to the law of Moses to change their lives, you brought to the forefront the promise that God Himself will change us as He pleases!
Victor it gets even better! (As it bes certain you already know.) Not only does He Himself take care of changing us as HE pleases but He does not make nor lead all of us alike, either. While He loves all of us enough to die for us -- He bes NO respector of persons so we don't have to fear He will whimsically favour someone over someone else for better treatment or more love -- He still relates to us each as individuals, and no two people have the same relationship with Him OR the same faith-journey.

John 21:17-22 bes one of the most eye-opening passages in this regard, not stipulating this reality as a principle or mandate but giving us a firsthand peek at Jesus in action living it:

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

This bes just amazing to Moriah, how He can love us all so much, treat us all completely fair and equal and yet still as individuals. His hand selects the best path for us, selects the spiritual gifts we will receive, the very specific works we will do for Him, the ways we will glorify Him, and He gets it right EVERY time.
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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The ten commandments can neither bestow upon you nor fill you with the Spirit of the Living God. Only fellowship with Jesus Christ, adoption as sons and daughters in Him, can do that.
Test message, please ignore.
 
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Man-ofGod

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The ten commandments can neither bestow upon you nor fill you with the Spirit of the Living God. Only fellowship with Jesus Christ, adoption as sons and daughters in Him, can do that.


Agreed. But in addition to that,

James 2:17-18:


But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
James 2:21-24


1 John 2:4-6

Amen.
 
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ricker

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Perhaps this would have been better. Let's see where this takes us.
God bless! Ricker
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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First off, as VictorC asked before, please don't put scriptures in quotations tags. When you do, they don't render once a person hits the "quote" button to respond, and that's kind of a pain for responding.

Agreed. But in addition to that,
James 2:17-18:
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Meaning what, precisely? First off, as already mentioned, Jesus pointed out in John 6:29 that the work of God bes to believe on Him whom the Father has sent. Moriah intends to do a word study here by the way as it had some thoughts it wanted to suss out concerning the concept of "experience" in this context -- but that will be another thread for another time. Nevertheless, soldiering on, let's allow your next quote to answer this one and define it, shall we?

Reading this carefully we can see this does not refer to any notion of "keeping the ten commandments" or "living by Mosaic laws" for "works". Not by a long shot! For starters, in fact, in order to be obedient to God in this situation, Abraham had to purpose within himself to BREAK one of the ten commandments: "thou shalt not kill." Which requires greater faith? -- to obey something God asks of you which corresponds nice and neatly with a clear Biblical mandate telling everyone to do it? Or to obey something God asks of you which seems to utterly and completely VIOLATE a Biblical mandate considered binding on everyone and fundamental at that? If the Voice of God spoke to you today and asked you to lay your only child on an altar and offer him as a sacrifice, would you do it? Or would you be like every other typical "average Joe" in the world's churches today and rationalize to yourself it must not really be God -- after all God would never demand such a thing -- it must be ha-satan instead ...?

Well?

As it stands, no "biblical mandates" even EXISTED in Abraham's day. He lived before our canonical scriptures had even begun to be written, and he did not know any ten commandments NOR any elaborate sets of ceremonial, lifestyle, dietary or religious laws to follow. All he had to go on bes the Voice of God in his heart speaking to his soul.

Using any reference to him (Abraham) whatsoever as fodder for arguing that we must keep Mosaic laws to be saved bes utterly preposterous in the light of these realizations. If anything, his example would seem on many levels to support the exact opposite and show the utter paucity of Mosaic law to even remotely measure up to the depth of personal relationship with God what bes the privilege of them adopted as Sons by FAITH.
 
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Man-ofGod

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First off I would like to apologize to Victor, Moriah and to others about my Bible quotation format. I use it personally because it makes the post easier to read IMHO. However, for everyones convenience I will refrain from putting the scripture text in that format. So with that out of the way lets begin.

Yes however,

James 2:17-18:
"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

I know that James was talking about doing good deeds and was not referencing the "Ten Commandments" per se (even though I know that all good deeds are covered by the 10 commandments). But my real point was that with real faith also comes action. Faith is meaningless if you say I believe in Jesus but don't take steps to follow in Jesus footsteps. Agree or disagree?

Before I go any further I think we need to get some answers to some fundamental questions about each others theology.

I believe that you believe that believing in Jesus is all that is necessary and that your actions will have no bearing come judgment time. Is this correct?

And I think you believe that I believe that I think that our actions alone determine that we are saved come judgment time. Is this correct?

I think these are important fundamental questions that we must answer before we even continue any further. Otherwise were just going in circles and not progressing in our debate. Thanks Moriah!
 
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VictorC

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Thanks
Yes however,
SDA's are famous for "but", "however", etc.
Agreed.
But you are still trying to link a legal covenant to a "guide for good living", and that is not what codified law contained in a Suzerainty covenant is. The Mosaic covenant was issued with the stipulation to comply to it, or die. That is how Moses summarized it in Deuteronomy 30:16-20: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

No one complied. Jesus pointed that out in John 7:19, and Paul did as well in Romans 11:32.

You now have a choice:
Seek redemption from the curse of the law,
or die.

That's the Gospel boiled to its simplest terms - the shortest summary can be found in Galatians 4:4-5:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Regarding James, I think you should follow the work that James considered most important, right in the same chapter you quoted from:
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Romans 10:1-4 amplifies on this:

1 ¶ Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Look at who a salvic judgment is directed to - it isn't believers!

2 Corinthians 5:5-11
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

God already know those who are His own; He already made a down-payment on His purchased possession (see also Ephesians 1:14).
The goats and sheep are already marked.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And I think you believe that I believe that I think that our actions alone determine that we are saved come judgment time? Is this correct?
We are reconciled by His blood, and saved by His resurrection.
Not our works, nor our perfect doctrine.
Period.
I think these are important fundamental questions that we must answer before we even continue any further. Otherwise were just going in circles and not progressing in our debate. Thanks Moriah!
Ooops - um, is it too late to change my name?

Victor
 
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