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Can a person be both an atheist and a Christian?

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Hello everyone
I have a question about definitions. An acquaintance of mine does not believe in God, does not accept the divinity of Jesus Christ, and does not think of the crucifixion as his path to salvation. In short, he is an atheist, like me. We are different, however, in that he attends church and refers to himself as Christian, his argument for this being that he has respect for the cultural traditions, and enjoys the sense of community derived from being part of a congregation.
Is it possible to be an atheist Christian? Can you be Christian without Christ?
Regards
WLB
 

hedrick

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As I understand it, Jesus' primary message was "God is now establishing his rule on earth though me. You are called to be part of it, and are responsible for how you respond." In addition, he taught God as our Father, and prayer to him. He also taught lots of things about how we treat each other that a non-Christian could admire and follow. But I would prefer to reserve the term Christian for people who are Jesus' followers in the sense that Jesus wanted them, and that includes the fact that our love for each other is a response to God's love for us.

I'd be happy to consider such a person a friend and cooperate with them where we agree. Nor am I speaking of salvation. Only God can judge who are his own. But I'd rather use words with their normal definitions, or they don't communicate. And I think the term Christian means someone who accepts Jesus' teaching as authoritative, and has faith in him. His teaching includes God as our father.

The PCUSA dealt with this question a few years ago. One of our very liberal churches accepted an atheist as a member. While I'm sympathetic with the desire to accept someone who shares many of our goals, I agree that this was inappropriate. The constitution was changed to make it clear that this was wrong.
 
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As I understand it, Jesus' primary message was "God is now establishing his rule on earth though me. You are called to be part of it, and are responsible for how you respond." In addition, he taught God as our Father, and prayer to him. He also taught lots of things about how we treat each other that a non-Christian could admire and follow. But I would prefer to reserve the term Christian for people who are Jesus' followers in the sense that Jesus wanted them, and that includes the fact that our love for each other is a response to God's love for us.

I'd be happy to consider such a person a friend and cooperate with them where we agree. Nor am I speaking of salvation. Only God can judge who are his own. But I'd rather use words with their normal definitions, or they don't communicate. And I think the term Christian means someone who accepts Jesus' teaching as authoritative, and has faith in him. His teaching includes God as our father.

The PCUSA dealt with this question a few years ago. One of our very liberal churches accepted an atheist as a member. While I'm sympathetic with the desire to accept someone who shares many of our goals, I agree that this was inappropriate. The constitution was changed to make it clear that this was wrong.

Thank you, Hedrick, for your answer. I agree, that the normal use of the words makes them mutually exclusive, but my interlocutor asserts that belief is optional, and even goes so far as to speak on the behalf of large numbers of people, claiming that the vast majority of moderate Christians do not have a problem with his position, which I why I posed my question in the moderate Christian part of the forum.

I don't have an issue with people being incorrect so long as it doesn't affect others, so this person self identifying as an atheist Christian wouldn't bother me much if it weren't for the fact that they were also part of the clergy. While he has since ended his ministry, he maintains he has no case to answer against accusations of hypocrisy. I see his position as hypocritical in two directions: as an atheist, he was preaching a message whose truth claims he did not accept, and unless his atheism was known to his congregation, he was misleading them regarding his beliefs when he gave sermons and led prayers.
While it seems moderate Christians would not recognise an atheist as a fellow Christian, would you have a problem being given sermons by an atheist? Would your reaction be different if their atheism was only revealed after the event?
Regards
WLB
 
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IndieVisible

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Hello everyone
I have a question about definitions. An acquaintance of mine does not believe in God, does not accept the divinity of Jesus Christ, and does not think of the crucifixion as his path to salvation. In short, he is an atheist, like me. We are different, however, in that he attends church and refers to himself as Christian, his argument for this being that he has respect for the cultural traditions, and enjoys the sense of community derived from being part of a congregation.
Is it possible to be an atheist Christian? Can you be Christian without Christ?
Regards
WLB

It sounds more like he is an agnostic Christian which is more common then you might think.
 
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mikemack

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That's an interesting question. If someone is following all of Gods laws and trying to lead other people to Christ, but doesnt believe it, then is he still doing Gods work?

It reminds me a lot of the religious leaders in the bible. Many of them followed all of the religious teachings....but when it came to really believing they failed. They nailed Jesus to the cross and crucified him rather than have to acknowledge the reality of who he was.

So if your friend is a "Christian" but doesn't really believe....will he end up being more harmful to the Church because he refuses to believe?

For that reason alone i say he can't be a Christian as well as an atheist. Because when it comes down to it, he will have to choose.
 
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hedrick

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I see his position as hypocritical in two directions: as an atheist, he was preaching a message whose truth claims he did not accept, and unless his atheism was known to his congregation, he was misleading them regarding his beliefs when he gave sermons and led prayers.
While it seems moderate Christians would not recognise an atheist as a fellow Christian, would you have a problem being given sermons by an atheist? Would your reaction be different if their atheism was only revealed after the event?
Regards
WLB

Yes, I would object. I understand the problem. People's beliefs change. I would assume that someone would start out preparing for the ministry as a believer. But what happens if you lose faith in mid-career? Your education and experience is all for Christian ministry. But there are certainly helping professions that would be close in many ways, although many would require at least some additional education.

The difficulty is that Christianity is personal. You use your own experience as examples, and you make judgements based on your beliefs. I suppose you could go for a while imagining what you would believe, or being guided by the writings of actual Christians. But I think it's dishonest.

Somewhat less drastic versions of this are actually fairly common. In moderate and liberal denominations, pastors are trained in seminaries where the Biblical studies and theology are often significantly more critical than ordinary members are used to hearing. So pastors have a tendency to downplay things they think would be controversial. This is unhealthy. The Protestant Reformation was, among other things, an exercise in adult education. The Reformers spent a lot of time educating their congregations about the basis of the Protestant faith. If clergy believe that a more critical approach to theology is appropriate, they have a duty to educate the congregations. Carefully and tactfully, but it should be done. And if there are irreconcilable differences between congregations and their pastors, they have a right to have leadership that is acceptable.
 
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It sounds more like he is an agnostic Christian which is more common then you might think.

Hi IndiVisible
If your definition of agnostic Christian is the same as mine, then I know many. The definition as I understand it is people who believe in God, but who are less than one hundred percent certain on the matter.
I consider myself an agnostic atheist, as I cannot be certain God does not exist. In outcomes, this semantic difference has little impact, as the uncertainty has little effect on the way I live my life, but philosophically it is more honest than holding that God definitely does not exist. I use the term atheist to describe myself because it is easier to type than agnostic atheist, and is unlikely to be misunderstood. If someone does misrepresent my position as belief[not-god] rather than not-belief[God], the misunderstanding is readily corrected.
The person in question definitely states that they do not believe in god. I haven't questioned them on their degree of certainty on the matter, but they would definitely be at the atheist end of the spectrum regarding belief.
Cheers
WLB
 
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Yes, I would object. I understand the problem. People's beliefs change. I would assume that someone would start out preparing for the ministry as a believer. But what happens if you lose faith in mid-career? Your education and experience is all for Christian ministry. But there are certainly helping professions that would be close in many ways, although many would require at least some additional education.

I know two clergymen who, nearing retirement, realised they no longer believed what they were teaching. I agree that this makes for a tricky situation, and my resentment at their ongoing dishonesty regarding their congregations was tempered by my empathy for people who felt trapped in a situation that lay beyond their capacity to act with integrity, but the person in question knew as far back as their seminary training that they did not believe. Circumstances that have not been outlined may have been in play, but I think at that stage a change in career would have been the sincere and honest path.
Regards
WLB
 
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LOCO

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No he cannot be both.

He sounds like he is a hypocrite and selfish, worshipping only to suit his social needs.

It would be interesting to know if he has let his pastor/priest and friends at the church know that this is how he feels.

He cannot be Christian if he does not ACTUALLY believe that Christ is the Messiah, God made flesh.
 
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IndieVisible

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Hi IndiVisible
If your definition of agnostic Christian is the same as mine, then I know many. The definition as I understand it is people who believe in God, but who are less than one hundred percent certain on the matter.
I consider myself an agnostic atheist, as I cannot be certain God does not exist. In outcomes, this semantic difference has little impact, as the uncertainty has little effect on the way I live my life, but philosophically it is more honest than holding that God definitely does not exist. I use the term atheist to describe myself because it is easier to type than agnostic atheist, and is unlikely to be misunderstood. If someone does misrepresent my position as belief[not-god] rather than not-belief[God], the misunderstanding is readily corrected.
The person in question definitely states that they do not believe in god. I haven't questioned them on their degree of certainty on the matter, but they would definitely be at the atheist end of the spectrum regarding belief.
Cheers
WLB

I'm not sure if there is one "official" definition of agnostic christian, I've certainly read a heard a few. It does center around certainty or for some agnostics, that believe we can never know for sure. So where one falls in this slide is up for interpretation. I know for a few years I identified myself as a agnostic christian because I preferred that over the non-denominational title that sounds so whimpy. I simply did not believe any religion came close to the truth at that time. I was certain there was a God but equally certain we could not know the truth. But that was my definition and do not know how it fits with others. I have since come closer to EO but of course remain independent and do not completely accept 100% of every thing taught.
 
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baryogenesis

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I admit at first I thought this was a rather silly question. But there is more to it than my first impression; (thanks to all who have responded in this thread!) Is it a matter of "having a form of godliness but denying its power" (1Ti 3:5)?

I am Jewish by birth, and was raised as a Jew in childhood. Both my parents are professionals in scientific fields. My father has always said he was an atheist, and only participated in the major Jewish holidays for ethnic/cultural reasons. My mother still practices and is a very active member in her Temple, which is of the Reformed Jewish denomination. She is not as certain as my father about her belief in the supernatural, preferring the term "agnostic Jew." It is also mainly for cultural reasons, community fellowship, and ethnic identity that she practices Judaism, rather than a belief in the objective existence of a specific deity. And this is hardly uncommon.

According to rabbinical professor and philosopher Abraham Joshua Heschel , "Awe rather than faith is the cardinal attitude of the religious Jew. In Biblical language, the religious man is not called 'believer,' as he is for example in Islam (mu'min) but yare hashem (one who stands in awe of God)." To many Jews, it is your actions, the keeping of the Mitzvot, living a "good life" and generally being a "good person" that makes one a good Jew, not a particular belief or doctrine.

So why would it be different for Christians? I have known many, many people who describe themselves as Christian even though it is a cultural identification and not a personal one. They may not even accept the supernatural at all, let alone accept the tenets of a particular creed. To many such people, salvation is not a literal matter, but an allegory.

If one is baptized and proclaims Christ, yet believes "Christ" is merely an allegory of a method for humans to live peaceably with one another, then what has been proclaimed? Does God's word become void out of the mouths of unbelievers? Must one have a particular mental image/concept of Christ before it can be "authentic" enough for salvation? (Some say that it must conform to the Biblical teaching of Christ, yet offer little guidance between various interpretations of certain verses, making for an ambiguous prerequisite.)

Is there a minimum required belief for salvation?

Does belief require understanding?

Is there a minimum level of cognitive faculty required for understanding the Gospel in order to believe (and therefore be saved)?

Can a child understand it? At what age? Can a person with a profound learning (or other mental) disability understand it?

Does God's grace extend to cover those who have not heard the Gospel? Does it cover those who have heard but do not understand the meaning? Does God's grace cover those deceived by Satan? Does it cover young children who have died before understanding their need for salvation? Do the prayers of believers have any effect on another person's beliefs or on their relationship with Christ? Or is that a matter between them and God alone?
 
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Thank you for your insights, barryogenesis.
Your experience of cultural Judaism is interesting and throws up many more questions, but could you please answer mine more directly: do you think someone who attends church but who does not believe in the divinity of Christ is Christian, how would you feel about being led in prayer by that person or listening to a sermon by that person, and would your reaction to their prayers or sermons alter if their atheism only came to light long after they had moved on from your church?
Regards
WLB
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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There are cultural Christians, people who identify with the Christian faith because they were raised in it, or who appreciate the society of their local church, or who like the ethics Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount without believing he was God, perhaps not even believing God exists. Would I call such people followers of Christ? No, but I'd still welcome them in church. Perhaps God is using that to draw them back to Him? In my experience, He does do things like that, and if that's what's going on, I'd want to help rather than hinder.

Even a hardened atheist who feels drawn to spending time with God's word and people may begin to have doubts, to think "perhaps it is true after all". A thought like that in back of the mind might be why they're really coming, and God only knows (I mean, literally, God is the only one who knows). Nor, if they were keeping it quiet, would I "out" such a person publicly... not unless they were up for pastor or elder, or other teaching position. Those should only be held by actual believers.
 
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baryogenesis

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Thank you for your insights, barryogenesis.
Your experience of cultural Judaism is interesting and throws up many more questions, but could you please answer mine more directly: do you think someone who attends church but who does not believe in the divinity of Christ is Christian, how would you feel about being led in prayer by that person or listening to a sermon by that person, and would your reaction to their prayers or sermons alter if their atheism only came to light long after they had moved on from your church?
Regards
WLB

Thank you for your response. Regarding a person who attends church and leads prayer and sermons who does not believe in the divinity of Christ, first I would have to understand what it is they DO believe about Christ.

Some people reject Christ's divinity outright. Others accept it. But there are some who don't easily fall into either camp. They are unsure of the particulars of doctrines like the Trinity, and especially coming from a Jewish or Islamic point of reference, they often are unsure exactly how to square a Divine Christ (Who prayed to the Father in Heaven) with "God is One."

Some consider Christ as a prophet of some kind (divinely inspired?), some believe He existed historically only to fulfill earlier prophecy (He was an "effect" and not a "cause"), others say He is a priest in the order of Melchizedek (who had no beginning or end), others say He is God in the flesh (and this may or may not be the same as Melchizedek), others confess "Christ is Lord" as Peter did (though their specific belief about His divinity remains ambiguous), others are "agnostic" about the divine nature of Christ, though they are not agnostic about God or even the Christian religion.

This is why your question as to whether a person who did not believe in the divinity of Christ was a "Christian" or not is more difficult to answer than I would have thought just a few days ago. "Christian" is a subjective term. Since it is not defined in Scripture, different people have different opinions on what the word actually means. I have usually heard it defined as "Christ-like." Though that is also the meaning of the word "Christian" as an adjective, as in, "Do the Christian thing..." When we speak of religion, I have often heard it as "Follower of Christ" or more specifically, "Follower of Christ's teachings." The latter can be true of someone even if they are unsure of their understanding of the divinity of Christ, or if their understanding doesn't match up with mine.

Typically "Christian" is the title given to an adherent of a specific religion whose primary authoritative source is the New Testament, as well as a long tradition, as well as various cultural keystones, from ancient Hebraic to Babylonian to Hellenistic (Platonism, Peripateticism, Neoplatonism) and onwards. Various Christian groups have drawn up creeds of specific foundational points that determine one's membership in said group. Throughout history there have been disagreements, sometimes wars, and even atrocities committed by one "Christian" group against another, usually in the name of unifying under one creed or leader. But from the beginning there was diversity, as different followers of Christ answered their calling and convictions. Paul was not called to the same ministry as Peter or James, for example, and was not even accepted at first as a fellow "Christian" by the church in Jerusalem.

This is also germane to current events, as people debate the "Christian-ness" of candidates identifying themselves as "Christian" and members of the LDS church. Romney and Huntsman say, "Christ Jesus is my Lord." Do I feel on solid enough ground to stand between them and God and shout "No you are not! You are not worthy!" Not me.

If the person leading the prayer is known to me to be an atheist, then I cannot imagine the point of "following" them in prayer, though I can always pray to God despite what someone else in the room is doing. If the sermon draws on Scripture and does not contradict any salient Scriptural doctrine, then it doesn't much matter to me who is giving the sermon as God's Word is still being taught. If I were to discover only much later that a minister I admired was actually an atheist all that time, this could only serve to highlight for me the utterly humbling ways God can make use of anything or anyone for His good purpose.

I believe that the only "ordained" position in the Church is Christ, as its head. All others are called to different positions according to their abilities and God's untraceable paths, but no one is above or below anyone else other than Christ. Therefore I do not depend on any specific belief of a pastor or minister or teacher or counselor, for God can and does make use of all for His purpose, and my dependence should be on Him alone.

One of my favorite authors is C.S. Lewis, from whom I have learned a great deal. He used to be an atheist; he used to teach atheism and debate the matter as a professor. God was working within him the whole time, however. I believe one of the ideas conveyed in Christ's Parable of the Wheat and the Tares (Matt 13:24-30,36-43) is that we should basically assume that we are dealing with people for whom Christ died, even if we do not know the final disposition of their souls while we live on this earth. So if someone leads a group in prayer to God, I do not see the gain in second-guessing their personal beliefs. If what they speak during prayer illustrates a lack of understanding about the nature of God, I would think that us believers gathered there in Christ's name should be convicted to speak to that person, either instructing or admonishing or (in the case of a non-believer) witnessing. Perhaps that was the very reason God indented us to gather in that group for that prayer, however misguided it may have seemed on its own merit.

I don't know if I have answered your question directly, as you have asked. To me this matter suddenly became a lot less simple "black and white" as I can perceive several nuances that I was happy to leave under the rug, frankly. I am also curious and interested in your answers to some of my questions in my first post above. Thank you again!
:groupray:
 
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Hello baryogenesis.
Sorry for the delay. I have been away.

.
If one is baptized and proclaims Christ, yet believes "Christ" is merely an allegory of a method for humans to live peaceably with one another, then what has been proclaimed? Does God's word become void out of the mouths of unbelievers?

I am less interested in the validity of the message than in the ethical integrity of the messenger, in this case. The person in question is certain that they were not hypocritical to preach Christianity while not recognising the divinity of Jesus or accepting the miraculous claims made about him in the Bible. I disagree, and think that attending services, let alone leading them, when you don't believe the core message behind those services, is insincere at best and fraudulent at worst.


Is there a minimum required belief for salvation?

The person in question does not claim to be saved, as they do not think the universe works that way. They claim to be Christian.

Does belief require understanding?

If the number of Christians whose understanding of theology, and even whose knowledge of the Bible is far exceeded by my own, who believe fervently that they are saved, are anything to go by, the answer to this would be a categorical "no."

Is there a minimum level of cognitive faculty required for understanding the Gospel in order to believe (and therefore be saved)?

Can a child understand it? At what age? Can a person with a profound learning (or other mental) disability understand it?

This does pose a theological problem which the baptism (insert ceremony of your denomination) of the mentally undeveloped attempts to hedge around, but I don't see it as resolved by rites performed on the behalf of those who are too young or too unaware to choose their own path on the matter.
But this is another issue. The person in question does have the faculties to decide, and has decided that the supernatural claims central to Christian doctrine are false.

Does God's grace extend to cover those who have not heard the Gospel? ]
Does it cover those who have heard but do not understand the meaning? Does God's grace cover those deceived by Satan? Does it cover young children who have died before understanding their need for salvation? Do the prayers of believers have any effect on another person's beliefs or on their relationship with Christ? Or is that a matter between them and God alone?

I can't answer any of this. I don't believe in God and don't think anything provided by the God I don't believe in extends to anyone. How theologians attempt to get around the problem of cultural biases and gaps in the historical dissemination of the gospels is of no interest to me, and has no bearing on the matter at hand.



To detour for a moment, I have a question about cultural Judaism, spurred by a radio show I listen to here, hosted by cultural jew, John Saffran. He's somewhere between journalist and comedian, more noted for his near heroic willingness to make borderline dangerous pokes at other folks' prejudices than for his humour or intelligence. He mentioned in a recent broadcast that the Orthodox Jews of Melbourne were more willing to accept a convert to Judaism than the cultural Jews. The comment he made was something along the lines that the rabbis figure that so long as the correct things have been said and signed, the person is welcomed into the community, but that the cultural Jews are less willing to accept someone who does not share the community history.
Does this align with your experiences, please?

Thanks again for your contributions.
WLB
 
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