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Rapture Bound

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A Heartfelt Plea to Those Trapped in the Snare of Legalism :


In order to eliminate any confusion or ambiguity, it becomes necessary to clearly explain how I perceive/define the term "legalism" as it pertains to Kay's video. Apart from understanding the concise sense in which the word "legalism" is applied to her video, the desired positive effects that may arise from viewing her message will be negated or nullified.

The term "legalism" is applied pejoratively [expressing contempt and disapproval] to the idea that right standing before God can be attained by an individual's adherence to the law [whether it be to the civil, ceremonial, or moral components of the law]. Here I'm referring to the grounds of a person's justified status before God. No amount of strict obedience to the law can merit a righteous standing before God.

The problem that arises here is that there are some who [falsely] suppose that all that I asserted in the above paragraph holds true for a person [only] up to the point that they are regenerated and justified. In other words, subsequent to their new birth, they suppose that those truth statements somehow no longer hold true, faith in Christ's atoning work on their behalf as the sole grounds or basis for their acceptance somehow becomes insufficient.

Here's my reply to that mindset. Christ has either done nothing for us, or He has done everything ... every person born into this world must decide concerning the issue of their righteousness before God [and the doctrine of justification]. To depend upon even the smallest measure upon our own merit is the very essence of unbelief; we must trust Christ for nothing or we trust Him for all... such is the teaching of the entire book of Galatians.

If Christ saves us only part way, and leaves a gap to be filled by our own good works, then we can never be certain of our salvation ... and that assurance of salvation is clearly taught throughout the scriptures. It would become altogether impossible to fully rest upon Christ's atoning work for our future entrance into Heaven if that were the case.
 
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Our part ( belief in Christ) is to confess Christ in sincerity, and to not deny Him in insincerity.



Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
 
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Here's a repost of my recent comment on the thread, "Is believing/faith a work?" :

Is believing/faith a work ?

Here are my thoughts as it relates to salvation, that is, to the nature of genuine, saving faith :

The sole ground or basis of our acceptance by God concerning our salvation has nothing to do with human instrumentality, it is 100% by Christ's substitutionary atonement. However, the only condition that must be met by mankind is placing or directing the object of their faith in Christ's work [not their own ... i.e. moral attainments, excellence, abilities etc. ... absolutely nothing].

Apart from a person freely choosing to trust in Christ's work in order to receive the free gift of eternal life ... they will die in their sins. Any type of mixture will fall short of the type of faith required for their salvation. That is to say, trusting Christ for 99% of our acceptance before God; adding even 1% our own righteousness or "works" to the equation will not cut it.

With that said, and understood within that established context, there is something that man must "do" to attain salvation, but that "doing" only entails trusting in Christ's finished work ... a work that was fully accomplished entirely apart from human instrumentality.

So, in the end, the question "is believing/faith a work?" could essentially be reworded as, "Is making a choice to direct our faith exclusively in Christ's work for eternal life a "work" on the part of man?" My answer to that question would be a resounding "yes", being understood as it being one which is wholly non-meritorious. It is a necessary condition that must be met, but in order for that choice to remain non-meritorious, it must be both perceived and received as a free gift given exclusively by the grace of God.

Therefore, if you were to ask me, "is it possible for man to "work the [acceptable] works of God"?... my response would be "absolutely".

Jesus clearly gave us the answer in John chapter 6 :

28 Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might WORK THE WORKS OF GOD?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent ...

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and BELIEVETH ON HIM, may have EVERLASTING life: and I WILL raise him up at the LAST day.
 
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Here's a repost of a recent reply I made on another thread, "Is believing/faith a work?"

Alive2 repied [post #35], "Some folks think that they chose somehow to have faith via so called free will. This makes them more righteous and deserving than the other guy. Think…the guy that said he was glad he was not like those others. That was an important principle the Lord taught us."

My Reply :

"This makes them more righteous and deserving than the other guy"

What made that guy self-righteous certainly was not placing his faith in the mercy of God or the atoning work of Christ, it was just the opposite - he was placing his faith in his own "works" to save him [his personal level of morality, his comparison of his morality versus he morality of others, that is, human versus human standards of righteousness, while not realizing how embarrassingly short all men fall of God's perfect standard of righteousness].

"Some folks think that they chose somehow to have faith via so called free will.

This statement focuses on an entirely different aspect than the former. The former statement concerns the righteousness of men versus the righteousness of God, while this statement pertains to the free moral agency of man
as it concerns saving faith.

The scriptures clearly present all men with the ability to choose, that is, they have the ability to accept or reject the free gift of salvation that God has offered to all men. Granted, their choice is made possible only by God's grace, only by and through the drawing and enabling power of God the Holy Spirit; nevertheless, the ability to choose is not "done away with". Do you really believe that God will force some to believe and others to disbelieve?

In other words, do you really believe that God makes that decision for each individual person [while those people sit by absolutely passively hoping that God makes the right decision for them?]. Can you see where this all leads if we falsely assert that man has no choice whatsoever in the matter of salvation when drawn and enabled to make that decision by the grace of God? ... to the sea of confusion and unscriptural notions and musings of man.
 
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BNR32FAN

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"Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?" Right here is where the unique contribution of Molinism is perhaps best demonstrated and utilized - via the Molinist model of perseverance.

Many Bible students have been frustrated to the point of giving up on their pursuit of arriving at a intellectually satisfying and scriptural based answer. Tragically, they have come to the point where they simply write it off as "mystery".

On one side of the debate a litany of scriptures are recited as evidence that a genuinely regenerated believer can forfeit their salvation, while the other side says they cannot.

The great distinction that those who hold to the Molinist model of perseverance (like myself) is seen in the fact that they do not deny that there are certain verses or portions of scripture (warning passages) that do in fact say that a regenerate believer can forfeit their salvation (such as 2 Peter 2:20).

This perspective clearly differs from the widely accepted position amongst those who believe a genuine believer will not ever lose that salvation that was gifted them at the point of their new birth. This camp claims that all of those warning passages are directed to those who are merely professing, but not possessing believers.

Tragically, many have either not been exposed to the principles of Molinism, or reject them because they have not studied them sufficiently ; and as in most things, the tendency is to reject the minority viewpoint. But keep in mind that the eternal security of the believer is a subject that contains many components to it that are very complex and therefore need to be addressed on both a scriptural and philosophical plane (which Molinism provides). 2 Peter 3:16 tells us," as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

The following excerpts come from an article entitled, "Eternal Security? a Molinist Perspective (part 4)" - by hampton45

The Molinist view would make three basic claims.

(1) The two sets of texts are actually in two different logical categories, and therefore are not contradictory.
(2) God has actualized a possible world where all true born-again believers will freely persevere to the end, though it is possible for them to choose otherwise.
(3) God uses the warning passages, as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away.

First, we must recognize that the two sets of texts are not contradictory because they occupy two separate logical categories. One set is modal (what can happen, referring to possibilities), while the other set is what philosophers call de facto (what will happen, referring to actualities). Just because something is possible, does not mean that it will be actualized. Just because something can happen, doesn’t mean that it will happen. Here’s an illustration. It is possible that I wreck my car tomorrow, but that does not mean that I will wreck my car tomorrow. Similarly, it is possible for me to choose to stop writing right now, since it is past my bedtime, but that does not mean that I will stop writing. I am having too much fun. We would indeed have a contradiction if we affirmed that one stream of texts says that a believer can lose their salvation, and the other stream of texts says that a believer cannot lose their salvation. But that is not what the Molinist affirms. Rather, the Molinist says that one stream of texts teaches that a believer can lose their salvation, and the other stream of texts teaches that a believer will not lose their salvation. This is why Eric Minton calls this Molinist model of perseverance the “Can/Won’t” model.

Therefore, we must keep the two questions distinct in our mind.

(1) Can a true believer fall away?
(2) Will a true believer fall away?

We can take these questions to the biblical text and see if they are answered differently. I contend that they are. The warning passages cited by the advocate of conditional security make it clear that a true believer can in principle forfeit his salvation. However, the promise passages cited by the advocate of unconditional security make it clear that a true believer will in fact never forfeit his salvation. The warning passages either explicitly use the language “if” or imply it, noting only possibilities. The promise passages either explicitly use the language “will” or imply it, noting actualities. See the table below for some examples.

(1) Modal Statements on Eternal Security (what can happen/possibilities) = (A)
(2) De Facto Statements about Eternal Security (what will happen/actualities) = (B)

(A) if indeed you remain grounded and steadfast in the faith and are not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard. (Col 1:23)
(B) I give them eternal life, and they will never never perish. (John 10:28)

(A) if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start. (Heb.3:14)
(B) I am sure of this, that he who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ. (Phil 1:6)

(A) For if having escaped the world's impurity through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first. (2 Pet 2:20)
(B) ...as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:7b - 8)

(A) ...if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off (Rom 11:22)
(b) The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory forever and ever. Amen. (2 Tim 4:18)

Having distinguished these logical categories, one can better understand the second claim of the Molinist- namely that God has actualized a possible world where all true believers can freely reject Christ but will not. Those terms may be new to some. I am assuming in this article that one has a good grasp of Molinism. But I will give a very brief overview here.

God’s omniscience consists of three types of knowledge. He has natural knowledge- he knows everything that could happen. That is to say he knows everything that is logically possible. God also has foreknowledge- he knows everything that will happen in the future. But God also possesses a third type of knowledge that logically proceeds his natural knowledge and precedes his foreknowledge. Because it lies between these two types, it has been named middle knowledge. It is with this type of knowledge that God knows everything that would happen in any given set of circumstances. In a more philosophically rigorous sense, through middle knowledge God knows the truth value of all counterfactual propositions. So, for example, God knows whether the following counterfactual proposition is true or false- “if Jordan Hampton was the Roman prefect at the time of Christ, he would have condemned Jesus to crucifixion.” In God’s natural knowledge this is a logically possible scenario. However, there are other logically possible scenarios as well. I’m thinking of the possibility that I would not have condemned Jesus to crucifixion. So, God knows what could happen. Since I never was the Roman prefect though, God could not have known the truth or falsity of that counterfactual proposition through his foreknowledge. His foreknowledge only includes knowledge of the things that actually will happen. But it never did happen that I was the Roman prefect. So, God knows the truth of this counterfactual proposition through his middle knowledge, what I would have freely chosen to do under those circumstances.

So with that very brief introduction to Molinism, now you can begin to imagine how this would apply to the topic of eternal security. Through God’s middle knowledge, he knows the exact set of circumstances in which I would freely accept his offer of salvation, but later freely reject him and fall away. God also knows the exact circumstances in which I would freely accept his offer of salvation and persevere to the end. My contention is that God has actualized a world in which all true believers are put in circumstances under which they will freely persevere to the end though they still possess the freedom to do otherwise. This is only possible through God’s middle knowledge though. God is able to guarantee my perseverance, while leaving me the possibility of forfeiting my salvation. God can do this because he knows precisely what I would do with my freedom under any set of circumstances, and he knows what circumstances to place me in such that I will not use my freedom to forfeit my faith in Christ.

Having defended the second contention of the Molinist view of eternal security, I will move to the third and final claim- God uses the warning passages as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away. The reason I include this final claim in my Molinistic argument for eternal security is that someone may object to my argument at this point and say that the warning passages are meaningless or purposeless if a true believer will not fall away. Why would God need to warn them if he already knows that they will not fall? The Molinist response is that if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away. Notice how I said that. That is a counterfactual about which God knows the truth value via his middle knowledge. If that is difficult to grasp, let me briefly describe it another way. Here goes...

Prior to God creating the world, he had a range of possible worlds he could create, each unique in the people who who make it up, and the affairs they would engage in. So God chose to create a world in which the maximal number of people are saved and the fewest are lost based on the their own free choices. For every single person in that world, God chose a meticulous set of conditions for their entire life. Conditions like the time they would be born, the place they would grow up in, the family they would be born into, the school they would attend, the job they would work, the group of friends they would surround themselves with, etc. Now prior to creating this world God knew (via his middle knowledge) the exact conditions to put an individual in that would result in that person freely choosing to follow Jesus. God also knew (via his middle knowledge) the exact conditions to put that same individual in so that they would freely choose to follow Jesus their entire life, never falling away. The Molinist would say that among the many conditions that God would have to put that individual, one of those conditions is exposure to warnings of the fate he or she would suffer if they denied Christ. On this understanding, the warning passages of scripture are a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for Christians to freely persevere. So, the Molinist contends that God knew he needed to give these warnings in scripture or else at least some people would not freely persevere. And since God desires that all true believers would persevere he uses the warnings as a means to that end.

An analogy would be like a mother telling her child not to touch the hot iron or the child will be severely burned. Had the warning not been given, the child would have touched the hot iron. But the warning gives the child the motivation necessary to freely choose not to touch the hot iron. The mother used the warning as a means to protect the child. Similarly, God uses the warnings of punishment for apostasy to protect us from it. Now, I do not want to suggest that the warning passages are the only means that God can use to help someone persevere. I am contending that every single minute event in their life is ultimately aimed at them persevering to the end. Worshipping God in song, regularly meeting with and being encouraged by believers at church, prayer, fasting, studying God’s word are all examples of the means he uses to help us persevere. For me, God has used apologetics to help me persevere through significant challenges to my faith. And on this Molinist view, God also uses the promise passages to help encourage us that we will persevere.

So in summary, I contend that the traditional positions of the POS, OSAS, and CS make sense of only part but not all of the biblical data with regard to eternal security. Each side has what I consider an unnatural or forced interpretation that does not fit well at certain points. However, I hope to have persuaded you that Molinism can make good sense of both streams of texts. The key is that we see each set of passages in separate logical categories, which the text itself seems to do. Then we can affirm that a true believer can fall away, but a true believer never will. God has actualized a possible world in which they will have all the means necessary to freely persevere. He uses warnings as well as promises, and many other features of our lives to do so. The only question now that could lead one to fear that they will not persevere is if they are not sure that they are truly born-again. If you know that you are in fact a child of God then you can rest knowing that you will persevere. As Dr. Kenneth Keathley said “perseverance should be viewed more as a promise than a requirement.”

Note : "POS" = perseverance of the saints : "OSAS" = once saved, always saved ; "CS" = conditional security. God Bless!





2 Timothy 2:12 is in a personal letter from Paul to Timothy both of which we know were truly saved. “If we deny Him, He will deny us”.
 
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BRN32FAN stated [post #165] :

"2 Timothy 2:12 is in a personal letter from Paul to Timothy both of which we know were truly saved. “If we deny Him, He will deny us”.

My Reply :

Yes indeed, one of many warning passages. What many people overlook here is the reality that the "if" in this verse is not only conditional, but also a hypothetical affirmation ... "if you were to do such and such ,,, then ...." If a person is ashamed of being associated with Jesus and ultimately denies that Jesus is their Lord and Savior ... then Jesus will in turn be ashamed of that person and deny them of the benefits of His atoning work = dying in their sins.

Matthew 10:33, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Problem is ... there are those who read into this verse truths that are simply not being stated. If I'm not mistaken, your implication is that some Holy Spirit regenerated believers will in fact actually deny Jesus before they die and ultimately be cast into the lake of fire. Forgive me if that's not your implication, but that has been the implication and flat out admission of many from what I've seen over the years.

Where does it [in this verse or any other for that matter] state that any born again, Holy Spirit indwelt believer, will actually commit such an action?... this warning passage, and the many similar warning passages, are purely stated as conditional and hypothetical propositions.

And if it actually be the case that any born again person will not deny Christ, it does not lessen the reality of the serious consequences for any person who actually will commit such a grievous abomination. The future consequences of the warnings are real, they remain true even if no single person were in actuality never to commit that sin [denying Christ]... whether that person be regenerated or not.

Salvation is secure. The promises of salvation are there to encourage the faint hearted and discouraged. The warnings are there to awake the complacent, presumptuous, backsliding or sinning. God utilizes both blessings and warnings in order to fulfill His promise to preserve all of His children [John 6:37-39].

For example, let's take the warning label on lawnmowers. Manufacturers are lawfully required to mark an easily seen warning that says something along these lines, "DANGER!! ... KEEP HANDS AND FEET AWAY TO AVOID SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH"

(1) What is the purpose of the warning? ... to prevent serious injury or death.

(2) Is it logical or coherent to assert that any person will or must actually place their hands or feet under the lawnmower in order to make the warning real? ... I don't believe so.

(3) Whether or not a person complies with the warning does not do away with the actual consequences that accompany failure to do so.

(4) Whether or not, and which persons, will actually fail to heed the warning(s) and suffer the real consequences is an entirely distinct question.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Where does it [in this verse or any other for that matter] state that any born again, Holy Spirit indwelt believer, will actually commit such an action?.

So what your saying is that 2 Timothy 2:12 is an impossible scenario and therefore a completely useless message? In John 15:2 The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that doesn’t bear fruit. There’s a similar message in Luke 13:6-9. John 15:6 is another example where anyone who fails to remain in Christ is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. He said this exclusively to His 11 faithful apostles on the night He was arrested after they had been following Him for 3 years. No one else was present. Galatians 5:4 Paul said “you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace, you who seek to be justified by the law”. All of these are examples of true believers being capable of losing their salvation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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BRN32FAN stated [post #165] :

"2 Timothy 2:12 is in a personal letter from Paul to Timothy both of which we know were truly saved. “If we deny Him, He will deny us”.

My Reply :

Yes indeed, one of many warning passages. What many people overlook here is the reality that the "if" in this verse is not only conditional, but also a hypothetical affirmation ... "if you were to do such and such ,,, then ...." If a person is ashamed of being associated with Jesus and ultimately denies that Jesus is their Lord and Savior ... then Jesus will in turn be ashamed of that person and deny them of the benefits of His atoning work = dying in their sins.

Matthew 10:33, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Problem is ... there are those who read into this verse truths that are simply not being stated. If I'm not mistaken, your implication is that some Holy Spirit regenerated believers will in fact actually deny Jesus before they die and ultimately be cast into the lake of fire. Forgive me if that's not your implication, but that has been the implication and flat out admission of many from what I've seen over the years.

Where does it [in this verse or any other for that matter] state that any born again, Holy Spirit indwelt believer, will actually commit such an action?... this warning passage, and the many similar warning passages, are purely stated as conditional and hypothetical propositions.

And if it actually be the case that any born again person will not deny Christ, it does not lessen the reality of the serious consequences for any person who actually will commit such a grievous abomination. The future consequences of the warnings are real, they remain true even if no single person were in actuality never to commit that sin [denying Christ]... whether that person be regenerated or not.

Salvation is secure. The promises of salvation are there to encourage the faint hearted and discouraged. The warnings are there to awake the complacent, presumptuous, backsliding or sinning. God utilizes both blessings and warnings in order to full His promise to preserve all of His children [John 6:37-39].

For example, let's take the warning label on lawnmowers. Manufacturers are lawfully required to mark an easily seen warning that says something along these lines, "DANGER!! ... KEEP HANDS AND FEET AWAY TO AVOID SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH"

(1) What is the purpose of the warning? ... to prevent serious injury or death.

(2) Is it logical or coherent to assert that any person will or must actually place their hands or feet under the lawnmower in order to make the warning real? ... I don't believe so.

(3) Whether or not a person complies with the warning does not do away with the actual consequences that accompany failure to do so.

(4) Whether or not, and which persons, will actually fail to heed the warning(s) and suffer the real consequences is an entirely distinct question.

You have to understand what’s actually being said in John 6:37-39.


“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.””
‭‭John‬ ‭6:37-40‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

First of all notice that in verse 37 the word come and comes are two completely different Greek words. The word translated to “comes or cometh” is ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense meaning that those who presently and continuously come to Him He will not cast out.

Second the word translated to “will” can also refer to something that God desires not necessarily something God has declared to be for certain. That’s why we see the same word used in 1 Timothy 2:3-4. Surely we can agree that while it is God’s will/desire that all men be saved and come to the full knowledge of truth we know that is not going to happen because the scriptures specifically state that it won’t. So while it is the will/desire of The Father that Christ will lose none that doesn’t necessarily mean that it will happen because it is refuted in John 15:2, John 15:6, and Galatians 5:4.
 
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BNR32FAN replied [Post #167] :

"So what your saying is that 2 Timothy 2:12 is an impossible scenario and therefore a completely useless message?"

My Reply :

Well, it will become a completely useless message to those who fail to understand what is actually being stated there ... nevertheless, it remains true. Where did I ever state that it was an impossible scenario? ... it simply doesn't exist. I was simply stating the relationship between possibility and actuality.

Sadly, there are many out there who push back against philosophical theology. I suppose it would be better just to label it as reason, or harmonizing the seeming contradictions that appear throughout the scriptures ... in this case, those portions of scripture that appear to be refuting God's promises concerning His preservation of all of His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance.
 
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The following post provides further clarification concerning my perspective on 2 Timothy 2:12 [post #166] :

2 Timothy 2:11 - "for if we died with him, we will also live with Him"

"for if we died with him" is precisely the idea that runs parallel with the glorious verse found in Romans 6:5, [English Standard Version] - "For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

"we will also live with Him" - expresses the reality that those who have died with him [died to this present world through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit] receive a new identity or union with Christ [that is, they are placed "in Christ"] ... will experience glorification as viewed in both of it's tenses [presently actuated on this earthly pilgrimage, as well as a future reception of a resurrection body in the likeness of Christ's [Romans 8:9-11].

So, here is another vital truth to be pondered - if a person has actually been regenerated by the Holy Spirit [and consequently has been placed into the body of Christ through union with Him], he/she will necessarily experience the dual aspects of glorification.

Once again we revert back to the key question that needs to be answered deep within every person's soul ... "Have I actually been regenerated by the working of the Holy Spirit?" ... it is not .... "Will I actually lose that eternal life that dwells within me?" or, "Will I cease to exist as a new creature in Christ at some future point in time?"

If a person has genuinely been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they will not live [characteristically] according to the flesh. They have been given eternal life and received, as a result of their new birth, an eternal implantation of that life by that life-giving seed of God (God the Holy Spirit) as clearly revealed in the following scripture :

1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

The germ or seed of the Holy Spirit implanted in the soul abides there as a constant, vital principle, so that he who is born of God cannot habitually become a sinner.

Albert Barnes [although to my knowledge is not a professed advocate of any Molinist principle] in his commentary on 1 John 3:9, comes extremely close to a Molinist viewpoint when he stated :

"Because he is born of God - Or begotten of God. God has given him, by the new birth, real, spiritual life, and that life can never become extinct."

"And he cannot sin - Not merely he will not, but he cannot; that is, in the sense referred to. This cannot mean that one who is renewed has not physical ability to do wrong, for every moral agent has; nor can it mean that no one who is a true Christian never does, in fact, do wrong in thought, word, or deed, for no one could seriously maintain that:[but it must mean that there is **somehow** a certainty as absolute *"as if"* it were physically impossible], that those who are born of God will not be characteristically and habitually sinners; that they will not sin in such a sense as to lose all true religion and be numbered with transgressors; that they will not fall away and perish."

The explanation of that **"somehow"** is precisely what philosophically theology [and in this case, most specifically a Molinist perspective] attempts to accomplish. There are many perplexing concepts that are very difficult to comprehend woven throughout the scriptures. Should anyone serious student of God's word be surprised that many of them pertain to the subject of the eternal security of the believer?

2 Peter 3:16,"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood ..."


1 John 3:9, "for his seed remains [abides] in him" :

Dual truths to embrace :

(1) Abiding in God as being an essential condition for a future entrance into Heaven should not be denied.

(2) Abiding in God as the inevitable effect or end result of being born of God should not be denied.

So, how are these two truths harmonized? ... simply do not deny either of those truth claims. In other words, since abiding in God is the end result of all those having been born of God, the essential condition of continuance in Him [i.e. - the reality of it's existence] will at the same time be fulfilled/present in those same persons.

A person does not abide in God in order to retain or "maintain" the implanted seed of God within them ... rather, they abide in God due to, and because of, the reality that God's seed abides in them ... permanently. [see my post #'s 155 & 156 - page #8].


2 Timothy 2:12-13,"If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”

Therefore, since I'm convinced that my above perspective of verse 11 is 'rock-solid', I interpret it's subsequent verses in a manner that remains consistent with my initial premise. In a nutshell, I would simply summarize my position concerning these verses as following ... every genuine believer will suffer [as a result of being 'in Christ'], they will reign with Him, they will not deny Him, the faith that they have committed unto Him [at conversion] will never be extinguished, and as a result, will not be denied by Christ on Judgment Day.

To deny this interpretation of verses 12 and 13 is to deny the truths claims I made concerning verse 11. Any other rendering would result in setting verse 11 in opposition to verses 12 and 13. And, IMHO, I simply view my statements concerning verse 11 as being "bulletproof"... I've yet to see any arguments that have successfully shot any holes in my verse 11 premise [although there will apparently always be those who beg to differ].

The disagreement between my [OJAJ] view and the opposing view essentially centers upon another set of questions arising from [the above] remaining two verses:

"Are these qualities [of endurance and fidelity] ones that will be inevitably produced as a by-product or effect of a person's regeneration? [as the OJAJ - "Once Justified, Always Justified" camp asserts] ... or, will some genuinely regenerated persons fail to meet these stated conditions?"...[as the LOS camp - "Loss Of Salvation" affirms].

How a person views verses 12 and 13 is directly contingent upon what position they take on the above questions [whether they realize it or not]. As a person who holds to "the Preservation of the Saints" [along with some key Molinist principles], I certainly do not deny that there is a conditional element in this equation [an "if" is actually an "if"] I simply view that conditionality through a different lens than those of the LOS persuasion

Bottom line, I assert that a believer's endurance/perseverance is much better understood as being more a promise than a condition or requirement [although,
even if it is not viewed through that lens, the promise remains true] :

(1) I would agree that there are many scriptures revealing the necessity of a true believer's persevering by faith in order to receive their heavenly inheritance. (John 15:6; Heb.12:14-15, 10:36; 1 Tim.4:16; and many more).

(2) The scriptures also supply compelling evidence for the assertion that all genuine believers will persevere by means of promise ... of God's keeping or preserving power. (1 Peter 1:3-6; Phil.1:6; John 6:37-40; 2 Tim.1:12; and many more).

A Critical Concept to Embrace :

So, what are we to do with [the above] dual truth statements? Simply accept both of them! Why would any person decide to reject either one of these clear-cut, scriptural truth claims? I believe it is a huge mistake to deny either of these statements; it is the equivalent of setting scripture against scripture, rather than reconciling them.

It is not those who hold to the doctrine of the preservation of the saints who are unwilling to accept both truths, it is those who believe that believe a person cannot have assurance of their heavenly inheritance (i.e.- those who believe that some of the elect will forfeit their eternal salvation). This scenario should not be viewed as an "either/or", but rather "both/and."

God doesn't simply require holiness; He promises it to all of His sons and daughters :

(1) We must persevere in faith to enter heaven (2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26). Not to persevere is to everlastingly perish.

(2) God will preserve us in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to finally and forever fail. God will preserve us, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in "the faith" by faith.

Jude 1:1-2,"Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:"

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24," Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."
 
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Rapture Bound

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Here's a repost of a recent comment I made on another thread :

JohnB445 asked an excellent question indeed! ... "When it comes to salvation does it matter if one is Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox?

My Reply :

Absolutely! Common sense tells us that those who are exposed to false gospels are more likely to be hindered in their quest to find the true gospel message. Despite this horrific dilemma that we see all around us, God is able to save those who diligently seek Him and search for the only method in which they may be saved ... by grace through faith alone. They will be enabled to search for the truth and find it in the scriptures without the aid of any man ... the aid and illumination of God the Holy Spirit is quite sufficient [as I myself have personally experienced].

In time, if a person has truly been born again, God will lead them out of those counterfeit religious organizations [ i.e. "churchianity"] and place them where He truly desires them to be... God's plan for them certainly does not resemble a "cookie cutter like process", it is tailor made ... each person walks on a unique path.

What is the most important matter when it comes to salvation? In a nutshell ... Galatians 6:15 :

English Standard Version
"For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation."

Amplified Bible
"For neither is circumcision anything [of any importance], nor uncircumcision, but [only] a new creation [which is the result of a new birth—a spiritual transformation—a new nature in Christ Jesus]."


The only essential element that a person must possess concerning the salvation of their soul is the knowledge that they have truly experienced a new birth event [John 3:3].

Are you secure in your salvation?, that is,'Have you ever received the assurance of your salvation?' If so, you have discovered, believed upon, and received the true and pure gospel presented in the scriptures.

1 John 5:13,"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."

Romans 8:16,"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God."

1 John 3:24,"And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us."
 
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AVB 2

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"Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?"

Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him. In love He predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He predestined, He also called: and whom He called, He also justified: and whom He justified, He also glorified."

So God chose us, He predestined us, He called us, He justified us, He glorified us and then because we sinned He sent us to Hell?
 
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AVB 2 replied [post #172] :

"Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?"

Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him. In love He predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He predestined, He also called: and whom He called, He also justified: and whom He justified, He also glorified."

So God chose us, He predestined us, He called us, He justified us, He glorified us and then because we sinned He sent us to Hell?

My Reply :

I take your statement to mean that you agree with me when I say that no genuine, blood-bought, born-again believer will forfeit their Heavenly inheritance and be cast into the Lake of Fire ... not even one....correct?
 
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AVB 2

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AVB 2 replied [post #172] :

"Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?"

Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him. In love He predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He predestined, He also called: and whom He called, He also justified: and whom He justified, He also glorified."

So God chose us, He predestined us, He called us, He justified us, He glorified us and then because we sinned He sent us to Hell?

My Reply :

I take your statement to mean that you agree with me when I say that no genuine, blood-bought, born-again believer will forfeit their Heavenly inheritance and be cast into the Lake of Fire ... not even one....correct?

Correct. We did not choose the salvation that God authored, that Christ paid for on the cross and that was completely formed in God's mind from before the foundation of the world, just to say on Judgment Day "Sorry I knew you once but you sinned more that what my blood could cover so it's off to Hell with you, NEXT!" Satan cannot un-save what Christ has saved.
 
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AV 2 replied [post #174] :

"Correct. We did not choose the salvation that God authored, that Christ paid for on the cross and that was completely formed in God's mind from before the foundation of the world, just to say on Judgment Day "Sorry I knew you once but you sinned more that what my blood could cover so it's off to Hell with you, NEXT!" Satan cannot un-save what Christ has saved."

My reply :

Yes indeed! To depend upon even the smallest measure upon our own merit for salvation is the very essence of unbelief; we must trust in Christ's atoning blood for all of it or none of it ... such is the teaching of the entire book of Galatians.

If Christ saves us only part way at the new birth, but leaves a gap to be filled by our own good works or righteous acts, then we can never be certain of our salvation ... and that assurance of salvation is clearly taught throughout the scriptures.

It would become altogether impossible to fully rest upon Christ's atoning work for our future entrance into Heaven if we are the ones responsible for filling that gap ... just as the renowned old time hymn proclaims ..."nothing but the blood of Jesus"!
 
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GDL

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2 Timothy 2:11 - "for if we died with him, we will also live with Him"

Remaining just in this section of Scripture for the moment, there is much to discuss. A part of the discussion:

Some say there is a 2-tiered structure here saying life is assured if we died with Christ but reigning with Christ is based upon enduring in Christ. In my experience this is a view typical of the OJAJ camp.

Just a few of many questions for now:
  • Is just reigning to be denied to the "unfaithful" 2:13, those who do not "endure" 2:12, those who deny Christ 2:12?
  • Did such unfaithful and temporary ones truly die or did they die but become unfaithful / not endure?
Beginning here for the moment attempting some brevity:

NKJ 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
  • Paul is enduring so the elect can more literally hit with eternal glory the mark of salvation in Christ Jesus. This is reaching back to the basics of the word "tugchano" that several translations translate as "obtain"
2 Timothy 2:11-13 (I'm translating - the "if" statements are assumptions of truth for the sake of argument - I'm therefore using "assuming"):

[A] faithful saying ("the faithful word"): For assuming we died together, [then] we will also live together. Assuming we endure, [then] we will also reign together. Assuming we deny (disregard, repudiate, disown), [then] that [man] will deny (disregard, repudiate, disown) us. Assuming we are unfaithful, that [man] remains faithful; He cannot deny (disregard, repudiate, disown) Himself.
A simple chiastic structure (parallelism) of these verses might look like this:

- [A] faithful saying ("the faithful word")
- assuming we died together, [then] we will also live together
- Assuming we endure, [then] we will also reign together.​
- Assuming we deny (disregard, repudiate, disown), [then] that [man] will deny (disregard, repudiate, disown) us​
- Assuming we are unfaithful, that [man] remains faithful; He cannot deny (disregard, repudiate, disown) Himself.

If this parallelism is correct, then:
  • The central (main) point is reigning together with Jesus Christ, which seems to be hitting with glory the mark of salvation in Christ Jesus - Paul's reason for enduring is to help the elect accomplish this
  • Assuming we deny Christ, then He would deny us life (and of course co-rulership)
There are 4 assumptions made regarding those who will reign together with Christ:
  • They died with Him and thus will live with Him
  • They endured and thus will reign
  • They did not repudiate Him
  • They were faithful
We know from Peter's 3-time denial (same word) that repentance can be accomplished (until it may not be allowed 2 Timothy 2:25) and that faithfulness and endurance can thus be restored.

When discussing these verses, especially in regard to OJAJ and LOS, at least some of the typical questions that come up in these discussions can be discussed right here:
  • Will unfaithful people have life and/or rulership?
  • Will people who deny/repudiate Jesus Christ have life and/or rulership?
  • Will people who do not endure in Christ have life and/or rulership?
  • Can we die with Him and then deny Him by not enduring & becoming unfaithful?
  • If we die and then deny, then what do we lose?
It's well and good to go to other Scriptures to take a stand on OJAJ, and in the process of getting there it's a must. But there's a lot going on right here in 2Tim2 that really needs to be dealt with in detail. BTW, there are other potential chiastic structures that could be reasoned here, and they could change the parallelisms & conclusions.

Also, it's interesting, at least to me, that Paul wrote this in assumptions language. Why didn't he just make some statements of fact that go along with a OJAJ viewpoint? For example: we died so we will live; we will endure so we will reign; we will never lastingly deny Him; we will never be lastingly unfaithful to Him? Just to keep us on our toes knowing this would compel us to continually obey God's commands to endure in faithful obedience to Jesus Christ?
 
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GDL

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Problem is ... there are those who read into this verse truths that are simply not being stated.

And some would say the problem is the reverse and there are those who deny that what is stated can actually take place.

Where does it [in this verse or any other for that matter] state that any born again, Holy Spirit indwelt believer, will actually commit such an action?...

I'm sure you know that there are many verses that are interpreted by the LOS group to say this action can be committed by a Christian. I think I noticed that you mentioned Galatians previously. You were set aside/discharged from Christ & you fell out of grace in 5:4 sounds pretty severe.

Yes indeed, one of many warning passages. What many people overlook here is the reality that the "if" in this verse is not only conditional, but also a hypothetical affirmation ... "if you were to do such and such ,,, then ...." If a person is ashamed of being associated with Jesus and ultimately denies that Jesus is their Lord and Savior ... then Jesus will in turn be ashamed of that person and deny them of the benefits of His atoning work = dying in their sins.

For these first-class conditional statements, you're adding a word into the translation ("if you were to do such and such ,,, then ...."), which indeed seems to make this hypothetical. Please point me to a reference that explains the Greek first-class condition as purely hypothetical. I'm used to them being explained as an assumption of truth for the sake of argument. It seems you're essentially saying" if you do this, but you won't."

And if it actually be the case that any born again person will not deny Christ, it does not lessen the reality of the serious consequences for any person who actually will commit such a grievous abomination.

I see your position being that your "if" is really not necessary here, correct? IOW you're really saying "it actually is the case that a born again person will not deny Christ," correct?

Some of us would say what you're saying does not make any sense: A born again person will not deny Christ - there are serious consequences for any person who actually will commit such a grievous abomination.

Surely you can see why your position is questionable by some.

The future consequences of the warnings are real, they remain true even if no single person were in actuality never to commit that sin [denying Christ]... whether that person be regenerated or not.

Same comments as above.

Salvation is secure.

Agree. Secure for some. Maybe we should view as foundational & applicable to Salvation this first statement (in the order of the NT canon) by Jesus Christ concerning who will be saved:

NKJ Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

The promises of salvation are there to encourage the faint hearted and discouraged. The warnings are there to awake the complacent, presumptuous, backsliding or sinning. God utilizes both blessings and warnings in order to full His promise to preserve all of His children [John 6:37-39].

Again, this is indeed the view of some.

For example, let's take the warning label on lawnmowers. Manufacturers are lawfully required to mark an easily seen warning that says something along these lines, "DANGER!! ... KEEP HANDS AND FEET AWAY TO AVOID SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH"

(1) What is the purpose of the warning? ... to prevent serious injury or death.

(2) Is it logical or coherent to assert that any person will or must actually place their hands or feet under the lawnmower in order to make the warning real? ... I don't believe so.

(3) Whether or not a person complies with the warning does not do away with the actual consequences that accompany failure to do so.

(4) Whether or not, and which persons, will actually fail to heed the warning(s) and suffer the real consequences is an entirely distinct question.

Please explain #2 & #4. I see the warning as being very real. That's why the warning is there. You seem to be arguing that no one operating a lawnmower (a born-again person) will ever put their hands and feet too near the spinning blades (fall away).

Let's put it into the Greek first class condition: DANGER!! ASSUMING YOU DON'T KEEP YOUR HANDS OR FEET AWAY, THEN YOU WILL SUFFER SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

How is this warning not logical, coherent, real? If you're saying that the only way that a person can avoid serious injury or death is to keep their hands and feet from under the lawnmower, then you're eisegeting the warning, are you not?

Hopefully you can see that your point of view is arguable. It's well articulated, but arguable.
 
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BNR32FAN

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BNR32FAN replied [Post #167] :

"So what your saying is that 2 Timothy 2:12 is an impossible scenario and therefore a completely useless message?"

My Reply :

Well, it will become a completely useless message to those who fail to understand what is actually being stated there ... nevertheless, it remains true. Where did I ever state that it was an impossible scenario? ... it simply doesn't exist. I was simply stating the relationship between possibility and actuality.

Sadly, there are many out there who push back against philosophical theology. I suppose it would be better just to label it as reason, or harmonizing the seeming contradictions that appear throughout the scriptures ... in this case, those portions of scripture that appear to be refuting God's promises concerning His preservation of all of His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance.

In Galatians 5:4 Paul told the Judaisers “you are severed from Christ , you have fallen from grace, you who seek to be justified by the law”.
 
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GDL replied [post #177] :

"How is this warning **not** logical, coherent, real? If you're saying that the only way that a person can avoid serious injury or death is to keep their hands and feet from under the lawnmower, then you're eisegeting the warning, are you not?"

My reply :

Absolutely not, I stated just the opposite ... "The future consequences of the warnings **are** real, they remain true even if no single person were in actuality never to commit that sin [denying Christ]... whether that person be regenerated or not."

I've not ignored any of your questions GDL, nor do I say that you haven't made any valid points ... I certainly understand where you are coming from. The reason why I'll be addressing only selected questions and comments that you've made is due to my inability to make my points any clearer than I already have. Please understand that I don't say this in a derogatory sense my friend [if anything that's on me]; the concepts involved in Molinism are anything but simplistic.

There are some who understand and accept the Molinist subjunctive conditional propositions [i.e. - counterfactuals] ... while others don't. We will simply have to 'agree to disagree' over certain concepts. I wholeheartedly agree with William Lane Craig when called Molinism "one of the most fruitful theological ideas ever conceived. For it would serve to explain not only God's knowledge of the future, but divine providence and predestination as well"...which in turn serves to answer some of the most critical questions pertaining to the believer's eternal security.
 
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GDL replied [post #176] :

"Some say there is a 2-tiered structure here saying life is assured if we died with Christ but reigning with Christ is based upon enduring in Christ. In my experience this is a view typical of the OJAJ camp."

My reply :

"In my experience this is a view typical of the OJAJ camp."

When you say the "OJAJ camp", that covers a wide spectrum of perspective on the various topics that are involved within the question of a believer's eternal security. For instance, you have the 5-point Calvinist viewpoint.. there is the "Free Grace Movement" viewpoint ... and there are those who do not agree/identify with either of those two "varieties' of "OSAS/OJAJ" in many major points on the topic [of which category I would fall into]. For example, I disagree with both of the other groups concerning their perspective of God's predestination [which in turn creates many other soteriological distinctives].

So, you can see that some type of "universal" or "typical" OSAS/OJAJ" camp simply does not exist in reality ... only in your experience. Unfortunately, this situation only proves to further complicate a topic wherein much confusion and misconceptions already exist. It really took me many years to get a solid grasp upon this "rabbit hole" and to understand just what those distinctives are within the various camps. My journey down that "rabbit hole" was really the catalyst which led me to solidify my "preservation of the saints" " accompanied with some key principles of Molinism [such as God's middle knowledge] hybrid or alternative position.

"Some say there is a 2-tiered structure here saying life is assured if we died with Christ but reigning with Christ is based upon enduring in Christ."

Well, what we have here is a very confusing statement since there are elements of truth in it that could easily be understood in different senses unless a more detailed explanation is given. Fortunately, the questions you listed next will help to add some light to the dilemma.

From all I've seen, statements along these lines are usually made by those within the "Free Grace" Movement [Bob Wilkins, Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow of "GES" - Grace Evangelical Society]. In a nutshell, they teach that some believers will be separated from Christ, at least for a time, in the millennial kingdom.

In other words, they assert that unfaithful believers will be separated from Christ in the millennial kingdom during the marriage supper of the Lamb, having been cast into outer darkness outside of the banquet hall, while “victorious” believers alone enjoy His presence till the supper is over. "Outer darkness" in their theology certainly doesn't refer to hell or the Lake of Fire.

The way I see it ... the comparison of this “miserable millennium” view to purgatory is not an unfair comparison—believers being punished for their sins for a time... a viewpoint I certainly do not embrace.


"Is just reigning to be denied to the "unfaithful" 2:13, those who do not "endure" 2:12, those who deny Christ 2:12?

No, those who are deemed unfaithful [ defined as ultimately denying Christ] or do not endure in the faith [by faith] will also be denied a future entrance into Heaven.

"Did such unfaithful and temporary ones truly die or did they die but become unfaithful / not endure?"

In order to answer that question, another needs to be answered first .... "who are those unfaithful and temporary ones in reference to?" It is only the ones who ultimately deny Him that have not truly died with Him in a new birth transformation... so, "if" they actually died with Him, they will ultimately not deny Him ... they will remain faithful, they will endure by faith.

Make no mistake about it, portions of scripture such as 2 Timothy 2:11-13 are warning passages "through and through". God will indeed be faithful to carry out the horrific consequences which He has forewarned upon those who qualify for them. "He cannot deny himself" - it would be a denial of his very nature to save those who are unfaithful.

Assuredly, God has not placed these warning passages throughout the scriptures in vain. Therefore, rather than foolishly tossing them in the the scrap bucket, we should seek to understand His intents and purposes for their existence. They are one of the many means that God utilizes in His preservation of all His sons and daughters... they are there to stir and awaken the complacent, backsliding, and presumptuous.
 
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