Can a Christian be a Freemason???

[AoDoA]

It isn't. If you have prioof that it is then offer it.



Proof???????



Proof?????



Yes, and the US government is working with aliens from outer space and with Bigfoot and with the Illuminati and they are all trying to establish a one-world government...

I really can't deal with conspiracy theories. Get back to me whern you have facts.

"The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy."

Woodrow Wilson

there really is soooo much evidence out there today and there is no excuse to be as ignorant as you are on the subject and yet accuse me of the same...

 

[max1120]

your family involved must be lower level or they are just lying through their teeth which is common for masons

Masonry is about as Satanic an organization that exists out there

I don't care if the lower levels are clueless to its true roots

you have the information available to you now and you should make the right decision based on that

the world or Christ?

First of all I take great exception to anyone accusing my family of lying without irrefutable proofs...which you lack.

Secondly, no they were not level in fact I count a few 33 degree masons in my ancestry. In the lodge we do not worship Satan, Lucifer, or the neigbors dog for that matter. No satanic practices ar associated with the lodge. This is a conspiracy theory prepetuated over the years by men who want to sell books...lol It seems as though they have done a good job of selling them too.

 

[AoDoA]

your family involved must be lower level or they are just lying through their teeth which is common for masons

Masonry is about as Satanic an organization that exists out there

I don't care if the lower levels are clueless to its true roots

you have the information available to you now and you should make the right decision based on that

the world or Christ?

First of all I take great exception to anyone accusing my family of lying without irrefutable proofs...which you lack.

Secondly, no they were not level in fact I count a few 33 degree masons in my ancestry. In the lodge we do not worship Satan, Lucifer, or the neigbors dog for that matter. No satanic practices ar associated with the lodge. This is a conspiracy theory prepetuated over the years by men who want to sell books...lol It seems as though they have done a good job of selling them too.

"Masonry, successor of the Mysteries, still follows the ancient manner of teaching. Her
ceremonies are like the ancient mystic shows,--not the reading of an essay, but the
opening of a problem, requiring research, and constituting philosophy the archexpounder.
Her symbols are the instruction she gives. The lectures are endeavors, often
partial and one-sided, to interpret these symbols. He who would become an
accomplished Mason must not be content merely to hear, or even to understand, the
lectures; he must, aided by them, and they having, as it were, marked out the way for
him, study, interpret, and develop these symbols for himself"

page 18

http://www.freedom-ministries.com/downlads/Morals-And-Dogma-By-Albert-Pike.pdf

"Behold our secret: If in order to destroy Christianity, all religion, we have pretended to have the sole true religion, remember that the end justifies the means, and the wise ought to take all the means to do good which the wicked take to do evil. This can be done in no other way but by secret associations, which will by degrees, and in silence, possess themselves of the government of the States, and make use of these means for this purpose which the wicked use for attaining base ends. The express aim of this order was to abolish Christianity, and overthrow all civil governments." (Adam Weishaupt, May 1st 1776.)

an introduction to Bilderberg's "older brother"

 

[praisejahupeople]

In response to a statement by Peter, Jesus replied to Peter 'get behind me Satan' If Peter could one minute make one statement of faith to which Jesus replied you are the rock on which I will build the church, and the next make a statement influenced by Satan, then I would suggest we all can.
Remarkable then it is when this is implied some question whether others think they are a satanist.
Peter wasnt a Satanist but he did make some wrong statements and decisions.

Peter didnt make it a practice of opposing.What you say is true,we have all sinned and fallen short,but theres an important distinction between our sinful nature and those who stand against nearly everything that the bible says.Then attempt to justify their stand by saying that people are "misinterpreting".

 

[wayseer]

Originally Posted by wayseer
I have been a Mason for years
Ah this explains a lot about why you say the things you do.
Originally Posted by wayseer
So tell me, am I a satanist?
hmmm.you certainly dont come across as someone who believes in the bible,in actual fact you tend to take a stand against...i could be wrong,You might have defended and ive missed it , but thats how you seem to be.

There is much you have missed.

But what you miss most of all is your own self-righteousness.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Gee whiz, guys, what happened to this thread? I came back after an absence of some months, and can't even recognize it, the way the conspiracy theorists have infiltrated it. I have quite a bit I could say, but need to hit the highlights for now. First, there is this little highlighting trick, which is common fare these days among those who like to create illusions with this kind of shell game:

"It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am.. The idea that I meant to convey, was, that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible of separation). That Individuals of them may have done it, or that the founder, or instrument employed to found, the Democratic Societies in the United States, may have had these objects; and actually had a separation of the People from their Government in view, is too evident to be questioned."

George Washington

Okay, let's try that one again, with the highlighting changed to emphasize what Washington was ACTUALLY saying with this:

"It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am.. The idea that I meant to convey, was, that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible of separation). That Individuals of them may have done it, or that the founder, or instrument employed to found, the Democratic Societies in the United States, may have had these objects; and actually had a separation of the People from their Government in view, is too evident to be questioned."

What he says is, Masonic lodges have not tried to propagate any doctrines of either the Illuminati or the Jacobins, though it may be true that certain individuals had done so.

This is particularly significant to note in the case of Weishaupt. Masonry has nothing to do with Illuminism or the Illuminati, somebody has been reading too much Dan Brown. For one thing, the Illuminati were formed by Weishaupt in 1776. Check your history dates and you will find that he never joined a lodge until 1777.

That's:

Founded Illuminism: 1776
Became a Mason: 1777

Suggestions, then, that the Illuminati were somehow a product of Masonry, is putting the cart before the horse, since Weishaupt was not a Mason when he founded that group.

Mackey says of Weishaupt's joining the lodge:

Thenceforward Weishaupt sought to incorporate his system into that of Masonry. (Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, under "Weishaupt, Adam")

He did not succeed in that effort. Mackey's estimation of Illuminism was:

It exercised while in prosperity no favorable influence on the Masonic Institution, nor any unfavorable effect on it by its dissolution.

The absurdity of those who use materials like these, can be seen in a website, "The World in a Quote," where they cite all sorts of people from all walks of life, and from all points of history, as part of a "world conspiracy," including:

John Dunphy--died 1876
Adam Weishaupt--died 1811
Charles Francis Potter--1882-1962
Horace Mann--1796-1859

The strange thing is, they seem to be serious about this as a current phenomenon, while citing from sources like the above, all of whom have been long dead. Interesting, though, that in trying to make this out to be the "world conspiracy" that they wish people to believe, sources like those above lack any accompanying dates to tell us when the comments originated; while the more up-to-date ones are very specific as to source and date.

And apparently they will stoop to using anything to promote this nonsense. For instance:

"Teachers are the major resource through which to effect a world community." ― NEA Idea-book, National Education Association, 1975 - Foreword

I can't believe they wish us to think that that the NEA is part of some "conspiracy" with this comment from the foreword of their Idea-book?

Not only that, check out what they have to say, in trying to make this a long-ago established conspiracy being worked out in current events:

It is the plan laid out so long ago; and which is progressing today at an ever increasing tempo, steaming faster and faster like a runaway train, as we near the end of the tracks of time into the Great Tribulation: which was spelled out line-by-line, and is happening on cue, in the International Jewish Manifesto: "Protocols of The Learned Elders of Zion" .

"Protocols of Zion" is a false document, long ago proven to be so, and not taken seriously by anybody who has done their homework and knows it is bogus. Information about it, and further links exposing it as a fraud, can be found here:

Protocols

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree,
the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone,
and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the
Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit
of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who
bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble,
sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of
Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of
one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.
The Apocalypse, indeed, is a book as obscure as the Sohar.
It is written hieroglyphically with numbers and images; and
the Apostle often appeals to the intelligence of the Initiated.
"Let him who hath knowledge, understand! let him who understands,
calculate !" he often says, after an allegory or the mention
of a number. Saint John, the favorite Apostle, and the Depositary
of all the Secrets of the Saviour, therefore did not write to be
undertood by the multitude.

This is just more window-dressing. View it again, with more appropriate highlighting, and it's easy to see that Pike can be made to say just about whatever one wishes him to say:

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree,
the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone,
and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the
Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit
of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who
bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble,
sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of
Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of
one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.
The Apocalypse, indeed, is a book as obscure as the Sohar.
It is written hieroglyphically with numbers and images; and
the Apostle often appeals to the intelligence of the Initiated.
"Let him who hath knowledge, understand! let him who understands,
calculate !" he often says, after an allegory or the mention
of a number. Saint John, the favorite Apostle, and the Depositary
of all the Secrets of the Saviour, therefore did not write to be
undertood by the multitude.

Do you even know what "apotheosis" means? It's "a perfect example." So Pike says that the apocalypse (the book of Revelation) is the perfect example of a sublime faith which aspires to God alone, and DESPISES the works of Lucifer.

What exactly do you find to be a problem with THAT?

"The Lucifer, Son of the morning" piece is another one that people misread. Satan, he says, "bears the light," and with that light's brilliance he "blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls." Doesn't the Bible tell us that? Observe:

". . .such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."2 Corinthians 11:13-14

As for "not writing to be understood by the multitude," you have to understand what Pike was saying when he refers to multitude. He was talking about John's direct statements "he who has ears to hear, let him hear." And what he says is, that the believers were the ones for whom the words were intended, not for the world in general.

your naive if you think the book is not still given Masons

Masons are masters of deception

everything about their organization relies on lies, misinformation, misdirection and secrecy

exercising power over influential aspects of society(like the media and the schools) to convey the message they want, so the people will believe as they want them to believe

Pike has not been "given out" for ages now. And even when it was, it was given only to those who completed the degrees of Scottish Rite. If you compare the membership of Scottish Rite with membership in Masonry in general, you will find it to be a very small percentage, really. And if you were to ask every single Mason whether they have read Pike, the whopping majority of them have no interest in reading it at all.

"Masters of deception?" The only ones fitting that category are the kooks who build conspiracy websites concocting all this blather. Like Bill Schnoebelen, well known in those circles, who has publicized his opinions about UFO's and alien abductions being behind a takeover of Masonic lodges. And people actually take this stuff serriously!

 

[OllieFranz]

This thread has been below my radar, and I have not yet read through all of the posts.

But I must say that I do find it odd that it is the same pool of churches that supply both the people who most vehemently insist that the United States were founded on Christian principles by Christian leaders -- including Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson -- and refuse to listen to any evidence that they might have been deists, or at least leaned toward deism, and also those who see a Freemasonry plot behind many aspects of the founding of the country led by known Freemasons Washington and Franklin, and suspected Freemason Jefferson.

 

[IreneAdler]

BIG picture... (OP) lol. Yes. I think alot of people who demonize freemasons do not understand what it's about. My family has been involved for years in the freemasons and eastern star. I don't feel less Christian because my family belongs to this group, nor do I think they are.

 

[brightmorningstar]

For once I agree with OllieFranz. The creator of the universe is God, Father, Son an Holy Spirit, any organisation that does acknowledge that is hiding something.

By the way here we go again with IreneAdler... freemasons, what is it about. Freemasons arent it and it is freemasonry that is in question if you wish to use the word demonise.

 

[IreneAdler]

If you've never been in it, and only read about it, and it's all consperitorial jargon, I can't see how you can possibly pass judgment on it as a whole. It's like people saying the pope is the antichrist or that the catholic church is of the devil. Not understanding something doesn't make it evil.

 

[brightmorningstar]

So IreneAdler, does Freemasonry refer to GAOTU or does it refer to God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, are there members of other religions?

 

[IreneAdler]

there ARE members of other religions I'm sure, but you're not allowed to discuss it. You're requested to declare belief in a supreme being (unspecified). This doesn't exclude Yhvh and doesn't mean some weird supreme being that they made up.

 

[OllieFranz]

For once I agree with OllieFranz. The creator of the universe is God, Father, Son an Holy Spirit, any organisation that does acknowledge that is hiding something.

By the way here we go again with IreneAdler... freemasons, what is it about. Freemasons arent it and it is freemasonry that is in question if you wish to use the word demonise.

As much as enjoy a post of yours that does not contradict everything I said, I must say that I think you may have read my post wrong. I have no idea what you are talking about that you "agree with" me on.

All I was saying was that it seems like the people who are worried about the Freemasonry conspiracy in the US, going back to Washington and Franklin, are the same ones (or at least their close theological cousins) who are claiming that the US was founded on Christianity and that Washington and Franklin were Christians

 

[Rev Wayne]

But I must say that I do find it odd that it is the same pool of churches that supply both the people who most vehemently insist that the United States were founded on Christian principles by Christian leaders -- including Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson -- and refuse to listen to any evidence that they might have been deists, or at least leaned toward deism, and also those who see a Freemasonry plot behind many aspects of the founding of the country led by known Freemasons Washington and Franklin, and suspected Freemason Jefferson.

Washington and Franklin were both Masons, but neither of them was a Deist. On the other hand, Jefferson was not a Mason, but he was a Deist.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To IreneAdler,

there ARE members of other religions I'm sure, but you're not allowed to discuss it. You're requested to declare belief in a supreme being (unspecified). This doesn't exclude Yhvh and doesn't mean some weird supreme being that they made up.

For Christians God the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is the supreme being so why would freemasonry refuse to acknowledge that? I can see how Christians can be happy for an organisation to refuse to acknowledge God.
Other religions will not see God but see other gods such as Allah.

 

[Archivist]

For Christians God the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is the supreme being so why would freemasonry refuse to acknowledge that?

The Christian Freemasons would obviously acknowledge God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as the supreme being. Those who are members of other faiths would acknowledge other gods as the supreme being.

I can see how Christians can be happy for an organisation to refuse to acknowledge God. Other religions will not see God but see other gods such as Allah.

You mean organizations like the Boy Scouts? After all, the Boy Scouts require remember promise "That I will do my best to do my duty to God and my Country" without specifying a specific diety. Unless you are going to restrict membership to Christians only, you have to allow members to recognize their own god.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Archivist,

The Christian Freemasons would obviously acknowledge God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as the supreme being.

Christians do that, IreneAdler has just said they don’t, as they aren’t allowed to discuss it. They refer to GAOTU rather than Father Son and Holy Spirit. Those who are members of other faiths would acknowledge other gods as the supreme being. That’s deception.

The question was why would freemasonry refuse to acknowledge that?

 

[Rev Wayne]

To Archivist,
Christians do that, IreneAdler has just said they don’t, as they aren’t allowed to discuss it. They refer to GAOTU rather than Father Son and Holy Spirit. Those who are members of other faiths would acknowledge other gods as the supreme being. That’s deception.

The question was why would freemasonry refuse to acknowledge that?

I'm trying to follow this, but I wasn't exactly clear on what you're saying Freemasonry "refuses to acknowledge," or exactly what it is you're calling "deception."

Some people have a misplaced notion about the idea that Masons "aren't allowed to discuss" certain things. There is a general agreement that while lodge is open, the subjects of religion and politics will not be under discussion. But that's for the purpose of meeting without the disharmony of conflicting opinions, more than anything else. (But even if they could, there's hardly time for it anyway during the time the business of the lodge is being conducted.)

Masonry is also more a philosophy or way of thinking, than anything else. It is most certainly not a religion, because its definitions of even the most basic ideas are more metaphysical in nature. I took a course in Christian philosophy in college where similar ideas about "God" were common. But calling God the "Unmoved Mover" or the "Uncaused Cause" as in philosophy, doesn't make somebody guilty of anything, nor should referring to God as "Architect"--especially since it's biblical:

For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. (Hebrews 11:10)

The word there in Greek is technites, for "builder" or "craftsman."

In 1 Corinthians 3:10, Paul says:

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it.

That word builder in the Greek is architekton, from which we get our English word "architect."

 

[IreneAdler]

To IreneAdler,
For Christians God the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is the supreme being so why would freemasonry refuse to acknowledge that? I can see how Christians can be happy for an organisation to refuse to acknowledge God. [/color][/size][/font]
Other religions will not see God but see other gods such as Allah.

Um, because they're not prejudiced jerks? Allowing people to be in a group of other faiths, and just requiring that they DO have a faith, isn't somehow this horrible thing.

 

[Archivist]

Christians do that, IreneAdler has just said they don’t, as they aren’t allowed to discuss it. They refer to GAOTU rather than Father Son and Holy Spirit. Those who are members of other faiths would acknowledge other gods as the supreme being. That’s deception. The question was why would freemasonry refuse to acknowledge that?

I certainly can't give a better answer than that already provided by Rev Wayne.

I noticed that you avoided answering my point regarding the Boy Scouts, which is an organization that requires its members to profess a belief in God without any specifics. When I was in Scouts many years ago we had a couple members of our troop who were Jewish and at least one who was Hindu, in addition to many Christians. All of us professed a belief in God when we said the Scout oath.