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No idea what you mean by the term ‘God’ finds common usage in Christianity. For Christianity there is known one God, who is Father Son and Holy Spirit, other religions don’t recognise Him.then it would also stand true that Christianity would have to be considered "guilty of deception" because the term "God" which finds common usage in Christianity, can also be interpreted differently by those of other faiths.
Surely you're joking. You can find examples of how "God" finds common usage in Christianity, by examining any theological discussion. And just to show it, I chose to do this by Google search, and picking at random a theological treatise. What I wound up with is from the American Journal of Theology, Vol. 14, p. 197-98:No idea what you mean by the term ‘God’ finds common usage in Christianity. For Christianity there is known one God, who is Father Son and Holy Spirit, other religions don’t recognise Him.
My point and question to you was why call God the Father Son and Holy Spirit who is the creator of the universe ‘GATOU’ when even in your admittance Muslims will see that as Allah rather than God.
So there is no analogy, it’s a deception.
Freemasonry directs us to put our sole trust in the One God who dwelleth in the highest heavens, under the several names, in consecutive degrees, of Great Architect — Grand Geometrician of the Universe, and Most High or Jehovah.
the Grand Architect and Contriver of the Universe; or He that was taken up to the topmost pinnacle of the Holy Temple.
If it requires a belief in any god its an ungodly organisation as it represents no god.
So what is the point of having a deception of GAOTU?
So what is the point of requiring a belief if the organisation is thus requiring false belief?
Just tell them the truth of Jesus Christ.. oh yes I forgot Freemasonry doesn't allow that does it?
The question remains GAOTU can be seen by people of other religions as their god. This is what you pointed out. If Freemasonry were a Christian organisation it wouldnt be having GAOTU but God the Father Son and Holy Spirit who created the universe. Freemasonry has no reason to require members have faith in 'a god'. Freemasonry is a deception.
I have been told GAOTU is supposed to be God thought GAOTU doesn’t specify God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.The organization doesn't "represent" any god.
Why would it require its members to believe in a god? If as Rev Wayne is saying, GAOTU is God it wouldn’t be in line with Christ’s NT teaching to let people assume it might not be.It simply requires that its members have a belief in god, just like the Boy Scouts require that their members believe in god.
But as explained above they don’t they require belief in a god, not the God.There is no "deception." Masons make the requirement of a belief in God very clear.
So other don’t believe in God then.And while most Freemasons would take the view that the term Supreme Being equates to God, others may hold a more complex or philosophical interpretation of the term.
You are absolutely right! Freemasonry may have "borrowed" the term/phrase GAOTU, but they define it very differently. In other words, John Calvin's definition of GAOTU (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is not the same as Freemasonry's definition of GAOTU, which is in effect "any deity of choice" as long as you believe he/it/she is the creator of the universe.
Take it from a former Mason, if any Mason claims that Jesus Christ of the Bible is the GAOTU of Freemasonry, he is lying. No matter how much he insist that it is it doesn't mean a thing Masonically speaking. It may mean that to him, but not in Freemasonry. As one Ex-Mason for Jesus put it, "Mormons pray to their "Jesus" as well, but their Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer. That is not my Jesus; and that is not the Jesus of the Christian faith. Mormonism invented its own Jesus, Freemasonry invented its own GAOTU."
Sincerely O.F.F. not from
So Freemaosnry is a deception as GAOTU can be seen by people of other religions as their god. If Freemasonry were a Christian organisation it wouldnt be having GAOTU but God the Father Son and Holy Spirit who created the universe so there was no deceiving who god is. Freemasonry has no reason to require members have faith in 'a god'. Freemasonry is a deception.
I have been told GAOTU is supposed to be God thought GAOTU doesn’t specify God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Why would it require its members to believe in a god?
If as Rev Wayne is saying, GAOTU is God it wouldn’t be in line with Christ’s NT teaching to let people assume it might not be.
But as explained above they don’t they require belief in a god, not the God.
You seem to forget that the supreme being is God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, if Freemasonry asks some to believe in a god but called the God, it’s a deception. So other don’t believe in God then.
So instead, Christian usage often utilizes the simple generic "God" rather than the fuller expression of our belief in the Trinity. But in doing so, they employ a term which an English speaker who professes a faith other than Christianity, may well use to refer to God when speaking of their own religion. In fact, in the very language from which we get our word "God," the Greek, Qeos is itself a generic word also. The general pattern of the Septuagint translation of the OT into Greek, was to translate "Elohim" with the generic Qeos, and "Yahweh" with the generic "kurios," or "Lord." Yet the Septuagint translators did not seem to be deterred by the fact that they were using a word which to a Greek person could actually be interpreted to mean Zeus.
Don't be asinine, it's not very becoming. You know good and well that as a Christian I know God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit same as you do. You also know, but apparently wish to appear as though you don't, that my point was not "this is what I believe about God and all that I believe about God." Take that song and dance to Hollywood, maybe you'll find a buyer. I was very clear in what I presented, which was not merely stating an opinion anyway, it was by direct quote from a Christian source, and clearly shows that Christians do not walk around saying "Father Son and Holy Spirit" with every single mention of God, but quite often simply use the generic "God."To Rev Wayne,
Thank you for the explanation of what you meant by term, but disciples of Jesus Christ know God as Father Son and Holy Spirit, so did Paul and so did the writer of Hebrews.
On, so you're only asking a question?The question remains GAOTU can be seen by people of other religions as their god.
Nobody has made any such claim, that Freemasonry is a "Christian organization." But neither is it thereby anti-Christian. It's not a religion at all. But the accusation is false, because "Architect of the universe" is exactly what John Calvin used to refer to the Creator.If Freemasonry were a Christian organisation it wouldnt be having GAOTU but God the Father Son and Holy Spirit who created the universe.
Then you need to get on board with your thinking in regard to the church, and start telling people that every place they speak of "God" they need to say instead, "Father Son and Holy Spirit," so they don't leave open the chance that someone else can use the word "God" to refer to any other god of any other religion.To Archivist,
If as Rev Wayne is saying, GAOTU is God it wouldnt be in line with Christs NT teaching to let people assume it might not be.
Hello Archivist,
I have a few questions to ask you, if you don't mind answering them.
Given your defense of it, you seem to be in favor of Freemasonry. Is it fair to assume you are a Mason? If so, are you a member under the Grand Lodge of PA?
Also, I see you attend St. Peter's Lutheran Church in PA. What Synod are they affiliated with? Are you aware that many Lutheran Synods have official policy statements opposing Masonic membership? Do you know your own Synod's position regarding the Lodge?
Thanks, in advance, for your reply.
Sincerely O.F.F., not from
Who cares about what church elder/leaders might say about FM? Archbishop Jensen of Sydney hates FM, along with women and homosexuals. I mean, in the 21st century, are these ravings actually taken on board as somehow 'informed' authority? I don't think so?
The other aspect which no one seems to acknowledge is that FM do not talk about religion, or politics, whilst in lodge.
"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion...This is the true religion revealed to the ancient (Masonic) patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures...It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted in the heart of universal humanity. ... The ministers of this religion are all Masons who comprehend it;" (emphasis added)
Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, pages 213-219
Hello Archivist, I have a few questions to ask you, if you don't mind answering them.
Given your defense of it, you seem to be in favor of Freemasonry. Is it fair to assume you are a Mason? If so, are you a member under the Grand Lodge of PA?
Also, I see you attend St. Peter's Lutheran Church in PA. What Synod are they affiliated with? Are you aware that many Lutheran Synods have official policy statements opposing Masonic membership? Do you know your own Synod's position regarding the Lodge?
I addressed this earlier, but I certainly do not expect you to go back and read the entire thread (which has become rather lengthy). No, I am not a Mason, nor do I have any intention on becomming a Mason. I have several relatives who are Masons, others who are deceased who were Masons, and some of my best friends are Masons. My experience is that they are a good organization.
"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion...This is the true religion revealed to the ancient (Masonic) patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures...It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted in the heart of universal humanity. ... The ministers of this religion are all Masons who comprehend it;" (emphasis added)
Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, pages 213-219
Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion...This is the true religion revealed to the ancient (Masonic) patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures.
I fail to see anything he describes there which would be antagonistic to the Christian faith.Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures. If unworthy passions, or selfish, bitter, or revengeful feelings, contempt, dislike, hatred, enter here, they are intruders and not welcome, strangers uninvited, and not guests.
It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted in the heart of universal humanity. ... The ministers of this religion are all Masons who comprehend it
So, in a discourse designed to try to prove Masonry "a" religion, why would someone omit by ellipsis the very material which shows exactly which religion that would be (if it were one)? As anyone can see, if you wish to paint this as a declaration by Pike of Masonry as "a" religion, then you have to take into consideration the ENTIRE context, and not just what you wish to pick and choose. The religion that Pike has just declared to be the religion of a Mason, can be none other than the religion of the Bible. The WHOLE Bible, for Pike quoted from both Testaments.It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. No creed has ever been long-lived that was not built on this foundation. It is the base, and they are the superstructure. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." "Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?" The ministers of this religion are all Masons who comprehend it and are devoted to it; its sacrifices to God are good works, the sacrifices of the base and disorderly passions, the offering up of self-interest on the altar of humanity, and perpetual efforts to attain to all the moral perfection of which man is capable.
To make honor and duty the steady beacon-lights that shall guide your life-vessel over the stormy seas of time; to do that which it is right to do, not because it will insure you success, or bring with it a reward, or gain the applause of men, or be "the best policy," more prudent or more advisable; but because it is right, and therefore ought to be done; to war incessantly against error, intolerance, ignorance, and vice, and yet to pity those who err, to be tolerant even of intolerance, to teach the ignorant, and to labor to reclaim the vicious, are some of the duties of a Mason.
(emphasis added)
Ok but their god isnt a supreme being then is he, freemasonry just allows some to be deceived into thinking it is. So Freemasonry doesnt then know or share a supreme being some of them just think they do.Their supreme being would be Allah or the Great White Spirit or another god.
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