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I think the question needs to be rephrased when it comes to Mr. O.F.F.:If a Christian cannot be a Freemason, then why were there great Freemasons that were Christian?
It's pretty sad when a 'Christian pastor' would sound as though he is giving more glory to a fraternity, for his Christian influence, rather than to God.
But this is typical. When Michael has no argument, he creates one of his own by twisting the words of others into his own straw man creation, which apparently he has less trouble dealing with. Problem is, he also has less credibility as a result.I have been privileged to know some wonderful Christians in my time, whose [CHRISTIAN] influence on me in my early years was enormous. I never knew, until several of them died within a short time frame, and after noticing obituary notations that the first couple of them had been Masons, I got in the habit of looking for it when others later died also, and to a man, it turned out they were all Masons. Kinda stops you in your tracks when you've been against Masonry and suddenly are put in the position of, "if Masonry is evil, then what am I, after all my Christian influences turned out to be Masons?" The adjustments in my thinking were thus hemmed in, and God gave me only one direction in which to find my way out of the dilemma, I had to change my estimation of Masonry. After all, I could not deny what sort of [CHRISTIAN] men these were, the fact that they were Masons could not change that; nor could I deny the [CHRISTIAN] influence they had on me, which in essence was to deny my own Christian faith. God works in mysterious ways to get His points across.
So while it may be difficult not to, my plea is that Masons not take our stand against the lodge personally. Again, it's not you, it's what you've been taught that's the problem.
Easily detectible just from reading the watered-down notes in a masonic bible.
Yeah, kinda like churches when they aren't holding services, huh? Most lodges meet once a month, with an occasional special called meeting. Most churches meet once a week, many also have midweek services, and different groups regularly using the building as well. It would be quite a normal expectation for the building to be darkened most of the times you would ever see it, because most of the time it would not be in use.Freemason locations always seem to be locked and darkened. Kind of creepy.
Actually, not God, but a belief in a "supreme being". That supreme being could be a coke bottle if you so choose. You can't an atheist, but you could be a satanist, if that's "your supreme being."Its actually a requirement to believe in God to become a Freemason. Numerous Anglican Bishops have been Freemasons.
This excerpt out of the Kentucky Monitor will show you if masonry has a savior other than Jesus. (Note: The Christian and Masonic saviors are capitalized to show emphasis, but other than that, that is exactly how it is worded. Jerry)
All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM. It is interesting that the "small hill west of Mount Moriah" has been identified as Golgotha, or Mount Calvary.
(Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)
You will notice that IN CONTEXT, the remark is being made about "all antiquity." You will ALSO notice that even though in all other respects, the underlined portion matches the alleged KY quote word-for-word, it differs in the fact that it does not have the one part that you chose to capitalize, "CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM." Moreover, you will also notice, if you read the original, that Pike was discussing pre-Christian ideas, and the "All antiquity" is the surest evidence of it. For him to have included the above phrase that alleges this to have come from a Masonic Monitor, would have been totally contrary to the thought he was elucidating in that context.All antiquity solved the enigma of the existence of Evil, by supposing the existence of a Principle of Evil, of Demons, fallen Angels, an Ahriman, a Typhon, a Siva, a Lok, or a Satan, that, first falling themselves, and plunged in misery and darkness, tempted man to his fall, and brought sin into the world. All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome, and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general, that He was to be born of a Virgin, and suffer a painful death. The Indians called him Chrishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Har-Oeri; Plato, Love; and the Scandinavians, Balder. (Highlight mine) (Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, Chapter 18, p. 277)
To this he adds quite a bit more, but to be concise, I cite a portion which captures the gist of his comments:The agonies of the garden of Gethsemane and those of the Cross on Calvary preceded the Resurrection and were the means of Redemption. (p. 307)
As for the other comments, I could say a great deal, and will, as time and opportunity allow, if someone does not beat me to it, as I'm sure anyone who knows the truth would be itching to do with so much misunderstanding represented in such a short couple of posts.Man is once more taught to look upward to his God. No longer to a God hid in impenetrable mystery, and infinitely remote from human sympathy, emerging only at intervals from the darkness to smite and crush humanity: but a God, good, kind, beneficent, and merciful: a rather, loving the creatures He has made, with a love immeasurable and exhaustless; Who feels for us, and sympathizes with us, and sends us pain and want and disaster only that they may serve to develop in us the virtues and excellences that befit us to live with Him hereafter.
Jesus of Nazareth, the "Son of man," is the expounder of the new Law of Love. He calls to Him the humble, the poor, the Pariahs of the world. The first sentence that He pronounces blesses the world, and announces the new gospel: "Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted." He pours the oil of consolation and peace upon every crushed and bleeding heart. Every sufferer is His proselyte. He shares their sorrows, and sympathizes with all their afflictions.
He raises up the sinner and the Samaritan woman, and teaches them to hope for forgiveness. He pardons the woman taken in adultery. He selects his disciples not among the Pharisees or the Philosophers, but among the low and humble, even of the fishermen of Galilee. He heals the sick and feeds the poor. He lives among the destitute and the friendless. "Suffer little children," He said, "to come unto me; for of such is the kingdom of Heaven! Blessed are the humble-minded, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven; the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth; the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy; the pure in heart, for they shall see God; the peace-maker, for they shall be called the children of God! First be reconciled to they brother, and then come and offer thy gift at the altar. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away! Love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you; and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you! All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye also unto them; for this is the law and the Prophets! He that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me. A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another: as I have loved you, that ye also love one another: by this shall all know that ye are My disciples. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend."
The Gospel of Love He sealed with His life. The cruelty of the Jewish Priesthood, the ignorant ferocity of the mob, and the Roman indifference to barbarian blood, nailed Him to the cross, and He expired uttering blessings upon humanity.
Dying thus, He bequeathed His teachings to man as an inestimable inheritance. Perverted and corrupted, they have served as a basis for many creeds, and been even made the warrant for in-tolerance and persecution. We here teach them in their purity. They are our Masonry; for to them good men of all creeds can subscribe.
That God is good and merciful, and loves and sympathizes with the creatures He has made; that His finger is visible in all the movements of the moral, intellectual, and material universe; that we are His children, the objects of His paternal care and regard; that all men are our brothers, whose wants we are to supply, their errors to pardon, their opinions to tolerate, their injuries to forgive; that man has an immortal soul, a free will, a right to freedom of thought and action; that all men are equal in God's sight; that we best serve God by humility, meekness, gentleness, kindness, and the other virtues which the lowly can practise as well as the lofty; this is "the new Law," the "WORD," for which the world had waited and pined so long; and every true Knight of the Rose ✠ will revere the memory of Him who taught it, and look indulgently even on those who assign to Him a character far above his own conceptions or belief, even to the extent of deeming Him Divine. (M&D, p. 309-10)
Yes, they certainly are. That's why we are here to expose the accusers by showing everyone the total imaginary facade that has been created ex nihilo by their ilk.Experts in obfuscation and deflection.
And every Masonic Grand Lodge with a website and a Monitor will tell you in either one, emphatically, NO! Masonry is acknowledged to be religious, though not a religion, because when people speak of “a religion,” they generally refer to a systematized, and self-proclaimed body with specifically adhered-to doctrines, and with adherents of whom it will generally be understood that they adhere to those beliefs. Masonry, on the other hand, is primarily symbolic in its teachings, and due to that symbolism, Masonry will be the first to tell you that it is open to interpretation according to the individual. And since you have cited Pike’s discussion of the 18th chapter of Morals and Dogma, it would be appropriate to let him speak to this claim:Is Masonry a Religion?
It’s monitors and notable writers say so.
No one Mason has the right to measure for another, within the walls of a Masonic Temple, the degree of veneration which he shall feel for any Reformer, or the Founder of any Religion. We teach a belief in no particular creed, as we teach unbelief in none. (p. 308)
"This is because Masonry is a religious institution..." (Kentucky Monitor, p. 28)
"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion."
Notice the “for,” which signals a continuation from that first sentence, making what follows the exposition of the statement. It may be considered to be “religion,” because the following religious practices are “inculcated.” He designates it the “true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs,” and says Masonry has taught it for centuries, and will teach it as long as time endures. And surely no one with all their mental faculties would suggest that any of the things he lists here are in any way contrary to or incompatible with anything in Christian teaching.Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and .Charity. Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures. If unworthy passions, or selfish, bitter, or revengeful feelings, contempt, dislike, hatred, enter here, they are intruders and not welcome, strangers uninvited, and not guests.
"It is the province of Masonry to teach all truth--not moral truth alone, but political and philosophical, and even religious truth..." (Morals and Dogma, p. 148. Emphasis mine)
The Kentucky Monitor says of Albert Pike: "The editor has not found sufficient grounds to differ from Brother Albert Pike, than whom there was never a more profound student of the arcane of our Order, nor from Brother Joseph Fort Newton, than whom there is no greater Masonic scholar today..." (page xi of the introduction).
"The tendency of all true Masonry is towards religion. If it make any progress, its progress is to that holy end. Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories - all inculcating religious doctrines, commanding religious observance, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?" (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 728.)
"Masonry, then, is indeed, a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it." (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 729)
This is directly out of the edition my friend has(15th, I think). I have the other Kentucky monitors I where my quotes say it came from the Monitor. A friend of mine has the edition that says this:Gee, I thought we had gotten beyond this long ago on this thread, not to mention everywhere else. Someone somewhere started this around as Kentucky Monitor material, which in my book, unless I find incontrovertible support for the claim from a Mason in the KY Grand Lodge jurisdiction, I will remain highly skeptical, and with good reason.
As I said above, I have my old copies of the monitor(Kentucky) and have saw the one that my friend has that I quoted the above paragraph from. Henry wrote the copies I have, I'm not sure if he was the one who wrote the copy my friend has that the "Christians/Jesus, Masons/Hiram" quote came from. I can assure you it came from a Kentucky monitor though.This material has traditionally been attributed to Henry Pirtle. That attribution is a false one, and for that reason I consider the KY Monitor attribution to be false as well, until someone can show me proof to the contrary.
Do Christians and satanist believe in the same god? I have met a "satanist" at a lodge function. I don't think we worship the same god. He, like everyone else, answered that he believed in god. A hindu will have to say he believes in god. Does he believe in the same god as Christians.No. The answer required is not supreme being - it is, God. (UGLQ ritual)
My opinion is that a Christian cannot be a Freemason. Freemasonry is far too anti-Christian if you ask me.
This is directly out of the edition my friend has (15th, I think). I have the other Kentucky monitors I where my quotes say it came from the Monitor. A friend of mine has the edition that says this:
"All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM. It is interesting that the "small hill west of Mount Moriah" has been identified as Golgotha, or Mount Calvary.
(Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)
That quote is in fact from a website that says it is in all those editions. Rather than sit down and write what I saw in that particular one I copied what they posted. The copy I read is exactly like they quoted. This is a quote from an older monitor and is not found in my copies. All I can say with a surety is that it was in the copy I read and was exactly like I worded it here.The only other question I have regards your account of the Ky. Monitors and this quote. Your citation has it:
"(Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)"
Yet you also state:
"A friend of mine has the edition that says this"
The first seems to imply that the quote you provided was found in all 16 of these editions of the KY Monitor. The second seems to imply that it appears only in the 15th.
Just curious, but perhaps you could clarify.
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