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Can a Christian be a Freemason???

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Sphinx777, Apr 14, 2008.

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  1. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal Regular Member

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    So all of the revered occultists of all time were duped into thinking they joined an esoteric occult secret society which holds some of the most profound hidden knowledge in the world, only to climb their way through the degrees and discover there is nothing there? Then why are your leaders teasing them and lying to them with promises of finding higher enlightenment that doesn't exist?



    How absurd is that? If it were vertical then there would be no point in doing it, yet seemingly all of the famous Masons opt to work toward the 33 degree.




    That's just absurd. Some of the concepts are loosely based on Biblical imagery, but the meanings are completely antithetical to the Bible. The true foundation is based on ancient paganism that goes back at least to Nimrod, and probably before the flood. That is evident by the symbology being used by Masonry, which has been used for thousands of years, and is based on the occult mystery religions. Obelisks are biblical for example, but only in the sense that God condemned the pagans who erected them. So yes Masons can claim they are following the Bible, but they are not on God's side.

    And addressing the specific question of the thread, how could a Christian take oaths that promise to have grotesque violence committed against themselves and others, to conceal each other's crimes, to retaliate and persecute unto death the violators of Masonic obligations, and the many other ungodly things they are forced to promise to do? The answer is they can't.






    Then why aren't all Masons in the highest degrees? Are they just too lazy to attend the one day class?


    The problem is I have never heard Masonry deny these supposed frauds as not being one of them. In fact, many still read the books of these so-called fake Masons like Albert Pike and Manly Hall, and hand out their books in the lodges to up and coming adepts to learn about the craft. Yet if I quote any famous Mason about any substantive issue, you guys simply obfuscate and deny that they were real Masons or spoke on behalf of the craft. Any evidence I could possibly present, you have your built in excuse of "nope not one of us, we don't teach that", yet in this information age everyone who wants the truth can see what this organization is about, and it's not just a little charity club that studies the Bible.

    SealedEternal
     
  2. Jester4kicks

    Jester4kicks Warning - The following may cause you to think

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    I'm sure Wayne is gonna tear this apart... but I'll just say a few things here and there...

    Masons joke about what goes on in a lodge all the time... but when it comes to serious inquiries, there is no teasing or lying.

    As for enlightenment... a mason gains enlightenment about Freemasonry, and the moral lessons contained within... but I'm not sure if you meant to suggest something else when you said "enlightenment".

    Do you read books to gain "rank" over people who have not read the same books? Or do you do it to better yourself and maybe learn something you didn't know? As for the fact that many famous masons are 33*... it's not suprising, since many famous masons are published masons... and many published masons have learned the additional degrees, served in most, if not all, of the posts in the lodge, and have done additional research into the history of Freemasonry.


    Would you like to provide a few examples?

    The penalties in the oathes are symbolic... nobody actually does them.

    Additionally, "conceal each other's crimes" suggests actions taken to intentionally subvert justice. There is no such requirement. A mason only promises to keep another mason's secrets, with the exception of murder and treason.

    As for the "many other ungodly things" that masons promise to do... would you care to provide some examples?

    Why should they automatically have to? Some, like myself, just haven't gotten involved enough to worry about it. Others may not want to get more involved at this stage in their lives. Others might not think either the York or Scottish Rites really align with their personal beliefs.

    Who called Albert Pike or Manly Hall "fake masons"? I believe what was said was the Albert Pike was commonly mis-quoted and mistakenly thought to have been speaking for all of Freemasonry... and Manly Hall wrote his well-known books about Freemasonry before he was raised to a master mason.
     
  3. Rev Wayne

    Rev Wayne Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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    "Higher enlightenment" exists for all who seek it, and its sources are really not limited. That has nothing to do with the fact there are no secrets in Masonry. Hyper-esotericists make the object fit the search, no matter whether it is Freemasonry or something else. If any "teasing and lying" is done, they do it to themselves.



    I know of no Mason who would do such an inconceivable thing as to try to "earn" the 33rd degree. The very fact that he would try to earn it would be the one factor which would deny him the degree.


    You must have overlooked my previous post. Since you make this ridiculous claim, I suggest you back it up by going back to that post, and in each direct biblical reference, please explain specifically how it is "loosely based on Biblical imagery," and how you consider it to be "completely antithetical to the Bible."

    Until you do, you really should refrain from making claims you cannot in any way sustain.

    Also, what you have just stated is not what some of the most well-known and knowledgeable Masons have said. For instance:






    Sorry, but someone slipped you a bill of goods, you are talking about the false foundation. Freemasonry’s roots are in late medieval England. There were Masons who were interested in such speculations as those you keep raising, but they were laid to rest when Gould’s History of Freemasonry clearly showed there is no evidence of such early origins. Gould was also the first, or one of the first, to make the significant distinction between the Speculative Masonry of modern times and the strictly operative Masonry of the cathedral-builders of an earlier era.



    What you fail to mention is, Masonry does not use the same symbology for any of its symbols, as the symbology found in the mysteries. The argument holds no merit, for it is a well-known fact that symbols are translated very differently from one historical era to another, from one symbolic system to another, and from one culture to another.



    Though not a biblical symbol, the obelisk was a Christian symbol LONG before conspiracists began using it to accuse Masons. It is a symbol of the resurrection and points to heaven. It was very popular in Victorian times as a Christian gravestone symbol. As a Christian symbol, it goes back to the earliest centuries of the Christian Church:

    The obelisk tradition continued in Armenia's Hellenistic and Imperial Age, with contemporary historic sources remarking they held a prominent place in Armenian cities, as well as along the roads that linked them. These monuments continued to be used in the early Christian period (4th-5th cc.) and were models for column-like monuments bearing the sign of the cross. Examples of this transitional form can be found at Talin and Artik. These Christian obelisks were along with wooden crosses the earliest forms of Khachkars.

    www.tacentral.com/khachkars/khachkar2.html

    The obelisk is not really a Masonic symbol, though. Mackey mentions its appearance in Continental Masonry, but that branch of Masonry is considered by many to be spurious Masonry, not having derived from the Grand Lodge of England. Mackey also notes its Christian symbolism of the resurrection, and declares the meaning to be the same in Masonry, a symbol of the resurrection. Other than that, the only mention I can find of the obelisk as a supposed Masonic symbol, is (1) from a book by John A Weisse, The Obelisk of Freemasonry, published in 1880, and making the absurd claim to have found 29 obelisks in “American mounds,” with writing comparable to Egyptian hieroglyphics. Pretty well speaks for itself, that one. I notice the Catholic Encyclopedia was quick to include it in their bibliography for their article on Freemasonry, which is not too surprising; and (2) I find mention of it in a footnote in a Maryland Ahiman Rezon. The note was apparently an improper comparison of obelisks with pillars, for it footnoted a discussion of the pillars Jachin and Boaz, which were pillars in Solomon’s temple, and not obelisks.



    They don’t. Every Mason knows the penalties are merely symbolic.



    Totally ridiculous. From the current Ahiman Rezon in this jurisdiction (SC):



    The same or similar is true in every Masonic jurisdiction in the U.S., and probably everywhere else as well.



    If that were true, you would not have organizations like EMFJ and O.F.F., which are ex-Masons who have been violating Masonic obligations for several years now, publicly and all over the internet. I do not know of any of them who have disappeared or had any retaliations exacted upon them, do you? I even consider a couple of them to be practically friends. One of them told me he would pray for a specific family situation I had told him about; and one recently emailed me to request prayer for a personal situation of his own. I find it to be in accord with God's Word, that "when a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him."



    Gee, did you have any specifics you’d like to mention, or did you do what it appears you did, and simply tack this on because it sounded menacing? Nobody has “forced” me to do anything—nor any other Mason I know, since Masons all come “of their own free will and accord.” And I’ve never really paid much attention when people start downspiraling so badly that they make generalizing remarks like “and many other things.”
     
  4. Rev Wayne

    Rev Wayne Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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    Like Will Rogers said, “Not everybody can be heroes. Somebody has to sit on the curb and cheer when they pass by.”

    The majority of Masons do not go on to the other degrees. Of those who do, I’m not sure how many do the one-day route. The ones who do, usually do so because of difficulty scheduling the time, more than anything else. I entered York Rite a year ago, but I still have not completed it. We were doing a couple of degrees a month, and there were two separate lodges I was availing myself of in order not to fall behind. But with the very last month of it, I had a conflict at the first one, made plans to attend the second, and then had a conflict with it as well. The first time it was a planned family outing, the second time it fell during the church’s VBS, so naturally those pre-empted the degree work in importance. THe result is, we are now looking at the possibility of finding one of the one-day classes that would be close enough to attend.

    Anyway, there is a lot of debate about the one-day route among Masons. Our English brethren have always looked askance at the practice. More and more, Masons in the states are re-evaluating it also, and many GL’s are moving away from allowing it.


    You have, but apparently you do not recognize it, or you simply deny it. When WE deny the claims you make, we present evidence to back it up, and that evidence generally comes from sources that are undeniably "Masonry." The best information I have found on this particular subject, comes from the British Columbia/Yukon Grand Lodge website in Canada. Surely you didn't think we were talking off the top of our heads like you do, did you?

    Masons in general do not speak negatively of anyone, whether the other person is a Mason or not. I find them to be particularly careful of sins of the tongue.



    Don’t know where you get that information, but I sure don’t know any of them, neither in any personal contacts nor in any of the many places I have been involved in Masonic discussions, even on Masonic forums. For that reason, I dispute your claim. The only place I ever see Pike discussed is when accusers mis-quote and misrepresent something he said, or when they are ignorant enough to quote from Leo Taxil’s hoax. The only time I see Masons bringing Pike up, is in defense against the abundant nonsense.



    I can’t help but notice you didn’t name a single one which you specifically claim does so. The only book ever “handed” to me in Blue Degrees was when I was presented a Bible at the completion of the MM degree. Up and coming “adepts” is a laugh too, nobody calls them that at all.



    No obfuscation to it. You have chosen, in true antimason fashion, ONLY the ones that are not representative of true Masonry, just like every other accuser before you. It’s almost like it’s a deliberate choice to do so, with the purpose of evoking the denial they know will come, so they can make maximum fodder out of it with follow-up accusations about “denial.”

    Besides, I already went one better for you in the last post. Your total lack of any comment on the materials I posted from the most common Masonic materials you will find, is very telling.



    That's a laugh, most of what you have done is make endless unsupported accusations. The fact is, the little which you HAVE presented, clearly is NOT representative of Freemasonry at all. If you can’t present anything that IS representative, you have no reason to be blaming US for it, that’s your own failure.

    Not that it matters, really. If you were not presenting the non-representative stuff, you’d be doing the same as every other accuser and presenting skewed interpretations of the representative material. As long as accusers confront us with the old bait-and-switch scenario, or the inevitable catch-22, what’s the use of responding to you at all?



    Yes, they can, since I posted so much of it in my previous post and inserted the Biblical references from which they were either quoted or theologically derived.
     
  5. morningstar2651

    morningstar2651 Senior Veteran

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    Freemasonry has always struck me as an adult version of the Boy Scouts. The BSA isn't a Christian organization, but it has a primarily Christian membership.

    I met most of my requirements for Eagle and got inducted to the OA just by being an active member of my troop.

    I'm not a mason or a Christian... just throwing in my two cents.

    http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp
     
  6. Rev Wayne

    Rev Wayne Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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    Aw, man, NOW you've done it. Every time we bring up the Boy Scouts, these guys always quit talking to us. It's kind of embarrassing for the Organization of Former Freemasons to deal with, since one of their members has been heavily involved in Scouting, serving as a Scoutmaster and having his kids involved. His church denomination was also on the Boy Scout website's list of supporters.

    Thanks for the link, by the way, that site's Q & A format knocks down to a nutshell several points that I have been pointing out to the anti's for a long time now in much longer form. That organization is the best and the most direct parallel I've seen to Masonry anywhere, and the general support that churches have had for it for quite a long time now, puts these guys between a rock and a hard place as far as these accusations are concerned. The fun thing has been, watching them try to counter it some way and running into dead ends with every attempt, and going into denial when they can't.
     
  7. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal Regular Member

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    The obelisk predates Christianity by thousands of years and represented the pagan sun god who Mason's call "lucifer" who was known also as Nimrod, Osiris, baal, and countless other names by ancient pagan worshippers:

    Exodus 23:24 "You shall not worship their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their deeds; but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their sacred pillars in pieces.

    Exodus 34:13 "But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim

    Leviticus 26:1 'You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God.

    Deuteronomy 7:5 "But thus you shall do to them: you shall tear down their altars, and smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire.

    Deuteronomy 12:3 "You shall tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and burn their Asherim with fire, and you shall cut down the engraved images of their gods and obliterate their name from that place.

    1 Kings 14:22-23 Judah did evil in the sight of the LORD, and they provoked Him to jealousy more than all that their fathers had done, with the sins which they committed. For they also built for themselves high places and sacred pillars and Asherim on every high hill and beneath every luxuriant tree.

    2 Kings 3:2 He did evil in the sight of the LORD, though not like his father and his mother; for he put away the sacred pillar of Baal which his father had made.

    2 Kings 10:26-27 They brought out the sacred pillars of the house of Baal and burned them. They also broke down the sacred pillar of Baal and broke down the house of Baal, and made it a latrine to this day.

    2 Chronicles 14:2-3 Asa did good and right in the sight of the LORD his God, for he removed the foreign altars and high places, tore down the sacred pillars, cut down the Asherim

    Jeremiah 43:13 "He will also shatter the obelisks of Heliopolis, which is in the land of Egypt; and the temples of the gods of Egypt he will burn with fire."

    Micah 5:13 "I will cut off your carved images And your sacred pillars from among you, So that you will no longer bow down To the work of your hands.

    Isaiah 17:8 He will not have regard for the altars, the work of his hands, Nor will he look to that which his fingers have made, Even the Asherim and sun pillars.

    Isaiah 27:9 Therefore through this Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven; And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones like pulverized chalk stones; When Asherim and sun pillars will not stand.

    2 Chronicles 34:4 They tore down the altars of the Baals in his presence, and the sun pillars that were high above them he chopped down; also the Asherim, the carved images and the molten images he broke in pieces and ground to powder and scattered it on the graves of those who had sacrificed to them.

    Masonry, like the ancient pagan mystery schools, worships the enlightenment of lucifer "the light bearer" who is represented by the sun. The obelisk has always represented the dwelling place of the sun god in paganism, and is a well known phallic symbol related to the famous story of Nimrod/Osiris/Baal and is represented in Masonry as Hiram Abiff:

    Masonry still retains among its emblems one of a woman weeping over a broken column, holding in her hand a branch of acacia, myrtle, or tamarisk, while Time, we are told, stands behind her combing out the ringlets of her hair. We need not repeat the vapid and trivial explanation... given, of this representation of Isis, weeping at Byblos, over the column torn from the palace of the King, that contained the body of Osiris, while Horus, the God of Time, pours ambrosia on her hair.

    Albert Pike 33°
    Morals and Dogma, page 379


    Ezekiel 8:14-18 Then He brought me to the entrance of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and behold, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz. He said to me, "Do you see this, son of man? Yet you will see still greater abominations than these." Then He brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house. And behold, at the entrance to the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun. He said to me, "Do you see this, son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations which they have committed here, that they have filled the land with violence and provoked Me repeatedly? For behold, they are putting the twig to their nose. "Therefore, I indeed will deal in wrath. My eye will have no pity nor will I spare; and though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, yet I will not listen to them."

    Masonry at its highest levels is nothing more than a retread of the ancient pagan mystery religions. Just like all of those that came before you, you have changed the exoteric terminology, but fundamentally the esoteric meanings remain the same. It is all to clear to those of us with eyes to see and ears to hear that your ancient pagan symbols and prostrating yourselves to the east, is the same old Lucifer/Nimrod/Osiris/Baal worship that has been being practiced by similar orders for thousands of years. You can obfuscate and deny the obvious if you want, and perhaps you haven't risen to the point that the true meanings have been revealed to you, but it is obvious to any objective outsider who looks at the facts.



    SealedEternal
     
  8. izarya

    izarya Theurgist Extraordinaire

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    Ha!!! Almost choked when I read objective.

    And again, the knowledge is so secret...only those who have 'been risen high enough' are taught the true nature of Masonry, only they know what it's all about....well, them and a few million other people with no real knowledge of the teachings...but they do have an Internet connection.

    :doh:
     
  9. izarya

    izarya Theurgist Extraordinaire

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    For the record, he didn't say the obelisk had Christian origins, he just rightly indicated that the early Christian church adopted it as a symbol. You know, the same way the modern church has assimilated and integrated into itself several "paganistic" symbols and traditions. December 25 for example. There are NO symbols that are strictly Christian in ORIGIN, the cross is much older than Christianity; so is the dove, the fish can be traced back to Dagon and Nimrod as well. Even the crown of thorns has an Egyptian significance.

    So much for your so-called "objectivity" huh? Eh....
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2008
  10. Rev Wayne

    Rev Wayne Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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    You haven't been paying attention. There is no "lucifer" in Freemasonry. You can ramble on about Albert Pike all you wish, it will not change that. Like I already pointed out, you can find all the rituals online, none of them have been kept completely away from the eyes of anyone with an internet browser and a willingness to search. I have seen them all myself, there is no lucifer anywhere in it.

    Why don't you try to find something current to address, instead of quoting stuff written over a century ago, and which no one reads any more except conspiracy-minded morons? Albert Pike is dead, he died in 1886 and he ain't coming back. And neither is any interest in Morals and Dogma, at least on the part of Masons, going to come back either. The things you are repeating from this book were written for people involved in Scottish Rite. I am not Scottish Rite, nor do I intend to be, so none of it is relevant to anything in Masonry where I am concerned. Your continued chanting of the mantra "higher degrees" is also irrelevant, because you are falsely pretending it has to do with all Masons, when in reality it is totally optional, and not a path taken by the majority of Masons at all.

    Besides that, Morals and Dogma is little more than a compilation of information on comparative religions, and would serve more adequately as a textbook for a History of Religions course than anything else. And then there's the matter of the preface of the book, which you don't seem to have paid any attention to either:

    The things you have been citing from M&D are very clearly part of the "ancient theosophic and philosophic speculations" contained in the book. Therefore, just as he has indicated in the preface, those things you have quoted here have no bearing on any Mason whatsoever. They were simply included, as he said, "because it is of interest and profit to know what the Ancient Intellect thought upon these subjects."

    You really need to catch up on your reading, most antimasons quit going the Pike route years ago, and mainly because of the clear declarations of the preface of the book:

    (1) 50% or more of it is not even written by Pike;
    (2) Everyone is free to reject part or most or all of it if they disagree;
    (3) The abundant descriptions detailing the myths and legends of other religions, are not to be considered as part of the rites, but FYI only.

    Continue centering your focus mainly on Pike, and I daresay you will run the risk of being totally ignored from this point. I doubt there is a single reader here who is not completely aware of what a non-issue this book is in any current discussion of Masonic issues.
     
  11. Rev Wayne

    Rev Wayne Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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    You've had your turn with Pike, now it's my turn. In the preface, Pike stated that the "theosophic and philosophic speculations" in the book are not part of the teachings of the rite. So what about the REST of the material? Here are some examples:











    Yes, Pike was interested in the esoteric, but Pike does not conceal the fact that he sees through the eyes of his Christian faith. He denies any idea that the speculations upon other religions as found in his book have anything to do with actual teachings of the rite. He makes no such denial in places where he speaks, as he does here, of the symbolism and content of Freemasonry. Arguably, then, one can make much more of a case for the above quotes as Masonic opinion, than for the philosophic content of the book.
     
  12. O.F.F.

    O.F.F. An Ex-Mason for Jesus

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    So what about it? Are you trying to say that what you posted is indeed part of the rite? Let's see you prove it as explained by any current issue of a Grand Lodge ritual or monitor. For example:

    First of all if this were true, why would a Christian, who as such is no longer in a condition of spiritual blindness, destitution, misery and bondage, allow Freemasonry to tell him that he still is until such time he comes to the door of a Masonic Lodge? Moreover, if this symbolism is truly from the rite, please show us WHERE in the ritual or monitor this symbolism is explained as such. Otherwise, all you have shared is the opinion of Pike to which you obviously agree; and nothing more.

    The ritual I used when I was a Mason, and I bet your apron O.F.F. that the one you use says that, the point of the sword "piercing your naked left breast" is to, "teach you that as this is an instrument of torture to the flesh, so should the recollection thereof be to your mind and conscience, should you ever reveal the secrets of Freemasonry unlawfully." And nothing more is said about it. Yet, if you insist this symbolism, as Pike describes it, is truly from the rite, please show us WHERE in the ritual or monitor it is explained as such. Otherwise, all you have shared is the opinion of Pike to which you obviously agree; and nothing more.

    If this were true, why would a Christian, who as such is no longer in spiritual darkness, allow Freemasonry to tell him that he was until such time he took his obligation as a Mason? Moreover, if this symbolism is truly from the rite, please show us WHERE in the ritual or monitor it is explained as such. Otherwise, all you have shared is the opinion of Pike to which you obviously agree; and nothing more.

    Speaking of the Third Degree, you posted:

    This sounds very eloquent, and much like the symbolism of Christian baptism. Yet, the Third Degree is a Masonic Baptism symbolizing being raised into a new life in Freemasonry; a made-man, pagan religion. However, if you insist this symbolism, as Pike describes so eloquently, is truly from the rite, then please show us WHERE in the ritual or monitor it is explained as such. Otherwise, all you have shared is the opinion of Pike to which you obviously agree; and nothing more.

    I think you mean the quotes are Pike's, or even YOUR opinion, but you have yet to prove that they are the overwhelming or prevailing Masonic opinion. And, if other active Masons are reading this, and would honestly weigh-in on what is truly taught in Freemasonry, they would have to agree with me. But, if they honestly agree with you, then they too should be able to prove this symbolism is explain as such in their own Masonic rituals.
     
  13. Rev Wayne

    Rev Wayne Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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    Mike, if you had been part of this conversation all along, perhaps you would understand that the general flow so far has been, SealedEternal has insisted on ignoring our responses informing him that no one cares about what Pike had to say any more. In spite of our having explained to him and shown him the errors of the antimason extremists who have miscast, misused, misappropriated, and misunderstood Pike, he has continued to take an in-your-face attitude by continuing to post nonsense he has gleaned from extreme sources like Freemasonrywatch and other conspiracy kooks that are the common lot of the antimasonry crowd.

    After trying to maintain the patience to deal with what is essentially from the far reaches of left field, I found it necessary to employ the same tactics which he seems to relish, and posted an equal an opposite response to match his own. SealedEternal has taken a course of picking and choosing among Pike comments, and making unfounded accusations based on positions which do not take into account Pike's own comments in the preface concerning the nature of the material found in the book.

    Your objections to my most recent post are duly noted, but given the tenor of the exchange that had taken place to that point, they are irrelevant to anything either of us was saying, because we were not dealing with whether or not Pike's material is the equivalent of "official Grand Lodge material." What we WERE dealing with, or more accurately, what "I" was dealing with, was SealedEternal's accusational presuppositions that anything he chooses to quote (or mis-quote) from Pike, he can automatically presume it to be representative of Freemasonry. That's exactly the position he has taken all along, not one of trying to make a case for "what Pike thought," but taking it as a foregone conclusion that the conspiracy theorists have been right about Pike all along, and then citing material from Pike that he thinks will constitute "proof" that his presuppositions are correct.

    You and I both know how preposterous a proposition that is, just as you and I both know that neither SealedEternal's extreme, nor the extreme which I used to counter it, can be used to assert anything remotely resembling an accurate reflection of Freemasonry.

    But then, you and I were not having this conversation, were we?
     
  14. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal Regular Member

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    I see you are afraid to address the obvious connections between masonry and the ancient pagan mystery religions, and have abandoned your assertion that the obelisk is a "Christian symbol." You can obfuscate and deny a connection between the qoutes of known 33 degree masons and masonry itself about their "god", Lucifer, even when they are written by individuals such as Pike who helped develop the rituals of the order, but the evidence of the symbology of masonry is hidden in plain site for all to see, if they do their homework and study the history of them to understand what they represent.

    You cannot deny that masonry holds the obelisk in high regard, and cannot deny the history of that symbol which goes back thousands of years and is repeatedly condemned by God because of it's connection to Lucifer/Baal/Osiris/Nimrod worship in the Bible. You also cannot deny the fact that Masons look to the east to symbolically represent enlightenment which is also condemned by God in the Bible as sun worship. The "sun" representing "a bearer of light" aka "lucifer". You just keep telling us that this is a "christian" organization, but anyone who wants the truth can easily study these and many other obvious signs for themselves, and see what the real agenda is.

    SealedEternal
     
  15. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal Regular Member

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    First of all, "The Church" is not the Catholic Church or its early manifestations which "universalized" the traditional pagan mystery religions as practiced in Rome and before, and gave them a Christian veneer. That was of course the second attempt at a one world religion, and did appease both sides to a degree. The nominal converts to Christianity thought it was good that the pagans accepted Christ to some extent, while the pagans really don't care much about terminology because their faith is esoteric and will fit into any system.

    Anyway, you're correct that is where the idea of Dec. 25 being the birth of Christ came from. It is actually the birth of the new sun at the end of the solstice which represented the reincarnation of Nimrod/Osiris/Baal/Asar/Dumuzi/Enmerkar or any of the countless names he assumed and was then called Horus/Gilgamesh/Tammuz etc after his rebirth. Anyway, the common theme in all pagan cultures is that they are always represented by the sun because it is the "bearer of light" or "lucifer" who gives enlightenment or illumination.

    You are also correct that no symbols are christian only, since most of them have been carried down from the merger of a form of Christian veneer with the pagan mystery religions many centuries ago. God Himself never gave us symbols because they are usually used as a means of control by which elites can manipulate the masses by claiming an esoteric meaning behind them that only they understand, which brings us back to the topic at hand.

    SealedEternal
     
  16. wayseer

    wayseer Well-Known Member

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    The Christian Church follows and celebrates pagan rituals - a connection which you apparently fail to appreciate.

    No, Pike did not 'develop' the rituals - they were 'developed' long before Pike came on the scene.

    I have yet to see in my years in Freemasoney any role the obelisk might play.

    Then you will also have to condemn the building of King Solomons Temple - which, by God's command, was positioned East and West so that the Holy and Holies looked East towards the rising sun.

    So, what's your agenda?
     
  17. Rev Wayne

    Rev Wayne Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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    I never said the obelisk "is" a Christian symbol, only that it does indeed exist as a symbol in Christian iconography in addition to wherever else it may be a symbol. But I also pointed out it is not a Masonic symbol except in continental Masonry, which is tantamount to saying it is not a Masonic symbol at all.

    I can and have denied a connection with any Lucifer. It does not exist except in your imagination. There are no rituals anywhere in Masonry with any "lucifer" in them anywhere. One thing is for certain also, no matter what you think you have done here, you have not come close, even once, to stating a single thing that is true of "Masonry itself." For one thing, you have based most of your claims on Morals and Dogma, which was written specifically for, and applies only to, Scottish Rite Masonry. In doing so, you have automatically made your claims irrelevant to the huge majority of Masons who have never applied for membership in that order. Secondly, the preface of the book contains statements that clearly refute your claims concerning any material it contains.

    Getcher ears cleaned out and listen to Mr. Ex-Mason Mike, who has ably pointed out for us that just because something is found in Pike's book does not make it Grand lodge opinion.

    I'd have a response to this if I weren't completely doubled over in laughter at "hidden in plain sight for all to see."

    Yes I can, where were you? And if you disagree, where is any proof of your claim? In fact, where is your proof of ANY claim you have made here? So far all you have done is waste bandwidth with non-supported and completely spurious arguments. If you can't back up what you say with anything substantive, why waste people's time with things you apparently invented off the top of your head?

    Masonry does not go back thousands of years, you are dreaming. Even the most diehard anti's know better than that one. As for the obelisk, a picture from a church graveyard from the period:

    [​IMG]

    Let's face it, the Victorian Era was a period when not only Christians but EVERYONE was interested in obelisks. It's even historically known as the "Egyptian revival" period.

    And since you speak of a "connection to Lucifer/Baal/Osiris/Nimrod worship in the Bible":

    Maybe you can cite for me, chapter and verse, exactly where the Bible tells us anything about "Lucifer worship" or "Osiris worship" or "Nimrod worship" in the Bible. Try as I may, I cannot find "Lucifer" anywhere in any Bible but the King James and the Vulgate from which the KJV got it--and even there, I do not find Lucifer "worship"; I cannot find "Osiris worship" anywhere in any Bible; nor do I find any "Nimrod worship" in the Bible.

    Your claims just multiplied to the Nth degree of bizarre!

    Ridiculous. With this, as with many other Masonic symbolic references, the origins are found in Jewish and Christian precedent.



    According to St. Ambrose, in the ceremonies accompanying the baptism of a catechumen, "he turned towards the West, the image of darkness, to abjure the world, and towards the East, the emblem of light, to denote his alliance with Jesus Christ." And so, too, in the oldest lectures of the last century, the Mason is said to travel from the West to the East, that is, from darkness to light. (Mackey, Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, p. 238)

    In Malachi 4:2 Jesus Christ is called the “Sun of Righteousness.” In Psalm 84:11, God is referred to as “a sun and shield.”

    God inspired the writing of both of these, certainly you will not deny that? Both are symbolic, just as the reference in Masonry is symbolic. No one in the lodge is worshipping the sun, you’re really going off the deep end here.



    Once again, we find Masonry following a pattern gleaned from Christian practices.


     
  18. izarya

    izarya Theurgist Extraordinaire

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    Do you really assume that Nimrod himself took on all these personages intentionally, or was it people who attributed them toward him?

    Lucifer was denoted by the planet venus who heralds the sun, not the sun itself.
     
  19. Rev Wayne

    Rev Wayne Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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    Since the “connections” are so “obvious,” I’m sure you won’t mind providing examples of them for us to examine? That is, unless you're afraid to? And I mean, point them out for us and make direct connections, don't just quote some other misinformed soul who is saying the same thing, and then call that "proof."


    The accusation made concerning the “lucifer” quote you provided, has already been proven to be a false claim. The only other mention of “lucifer” by Pike, derives from the Leo Taxil hoax, and is a completely fabricated lie. The only other quotes you have offered about "Lucifer" were from from fringe Masons, and one from a Mason (Manly P. Hall) who wrote the source from which you quoted, over twenty years before he ever became a Mason. In fact, from what I have been able to determine, every book he ever wrote about Masonry was written long before he ever became a Mason.

    What YOU need to do is provide, since you seem to think they exist, direct quotes from any legitimate Masonic source, showing anywhere this exists other than in your fertile imagination. Pike simply will not cut it for you, nor will Waite or Hall. Strange, that the only ones you appeal to in making this accusation, are those considered esotericists or quasi- or pseudo-Masons. Don’t you have any LEGITIMATE sources?


    So you say. My Bible says that is not always the case at all.

    Genesis 28:18—And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.

    Genesis 31: 34—And Jacob set up a pillar in the place where he talked with him, even a pillar of stone: and he poured a drink offering thereon, and he poured oil thereon.

    Exodus 24:4—And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Gee, nothing there about “pillars” being “condemned by God.” Nor is there anything about the pillars in the temple of Solomon being “condemned by God.” Nor is there any indication in any of the above passages that any of this involved “Lucifer/Baal/Osiris/Nimrod worship.”

    You don’t suppose it has to do with the intended purpose, do you? Masonry’s pillars are named Jachin and Boaz, same as the ones in Solomon’s temple. Masonry’s buildings are dedicated in memory of the saints John. Masonry’s principles are founded on biblical principles found in both Old and New Testaments. As shown to you a couple of pages ago already, direct citations from common forms appearing in Masonry, used to open and close lodges, to dedicate buildings, to funeralize the dead, all have very FREQUENT and DIRECT citations straight from the Christian Bible. If you wish to make claims about ritual content, by all means, show us where any other “sacred book” is FREQUENTLY and DIRECTLY cited in Masonry, and maybe we will hear what you have to say.

    And if you wish to make accusations about obelisks and pillars, then please do so in a comparison that really IS a comparison. Masonry’s practices concerning the only “pillars” (not obelisks) it makes any reference to at all (Jachin and Boaz), much more closely resemble the practices of the faithful who commemorated events where they saw God at work among them, not acts of rebellion like those you have centered your focus around. You need to do a better job of making the accusations fit. Otherwise, you have not established any claims of “satanism” and “paganism."

    So far you have provided very little to back up your claims, and what you HAVE provided has been of little value in supporting your claims. I invite you to respond to the requests for corroboration of the claims I have cited above from your posts, before you go further down the slippery slope of lost credibility, as all accusers and antimasons who have gone this way before you.
     
  20. Rev Wayne

    Rev Wayne Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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    Makes it pretty clear who's doing all the assuming, eh?
     
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