Can a born-again believer lose their salvation?

[cygnusx1]

Yes, you are correct, but what you are not putting into consideration is that this was pre-church era. He was directly commissioned to do those things by Christ Himself, even knowing that Judas would do what he would do. No one today can do those things and not be walking with God today, the only way they could do them would be through demonic powers...as some are doing.

sheer guess work

What do you mean? Probably the same way you do...only I don't pray for their "salvation"...I pray that God will draw them to Himself, to open their eyes and understanding to His covenant, to see His goodness, and that they might desire a relationship with Him wherein is eternal life. It does absolutely no good to pray for someone to "get saved" if afterwords they don't want to enter into His covenant relationship, for salvation in and of itself is NOT eternal life.

so you do not pray for anyone to be saved ! almost all Christians do.

Again, I don't pray for someone to remain having what is theirs in the atonement, because once you except the atonement for your life, it is accepted. You can only be atoned for ONCE...but atonement doesn't automatically give you eternal life, it only makes it possible for you to enter into the Holy of Holies...the presence of God...so that you can enjoy that Divine relationship with Him and in that relationship (coined "in Christ" in the scriptures...just as "the kingdom of God" is the same thing as being "in the covenant") is eternal life.

once again sheer guess work , anyone reading this post will look upon it with suspicion , to argue eternal life is not equated with salvation will convince very few , in fact it leads to a direct blazing contradiction , that those saved remain saved , but the salvation they had can be lost because , so it is argued , they can lose eternal life thus the net result is they will not finally be saved .

your position is untenable.

Saved - temporary eternal life (which is an oxymoron) leading to loss of eternal life - finally no salvation .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No. John 3:16. Game. Set. Match.

Ya think?

Young) John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave,
that every one who is believing in Him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Matthew 17:5 Still of Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud over-shadows them.
And behold! a voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of Me, the beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!".
[Deut 18/Acts 3:22/Revelation 2:18]

 

[swordmaster]

No Sheep of Christs ever perishes .

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is true, they all shall come to Him, but you read into the text that they will not have the free will to walk away from Him once they do come to him, and that is your error with this passage. Also, He will not cast us out, but we still have free will to walk out whenever we might want to, regardless of what you think.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again, true...but again, you seem to think that once a man comes to Christ and walks with Him for a while, that he cannot decide to leave and go back into a life of sin...and in this you are in error.


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

John 15:16. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

And............???

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

John 17:9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Again....and?........

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

Acts 13:48.And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Again, true...but you mistakenly believe that because they were ordained to eternal life that means they will never walk away from God years latter down the road...as other passages clearly indicate did and does happen. You are not listening again, you are only arguing, making scripture head-butt scripture, demonstrating that your teachings are false.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

Romans 8:33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth

And.................???
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times].

[/FONT][/FONT]

Romans 9:11-13. (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I looked this up in my reverse interlinear bible, and the words have been scrambled (amazing what you can learn when you purchase for yourself study helps...seeing the new testament was originally in the Greek and not readily translatable into English at times). When we unscramble the word order from the Greek, this passage reads...

"Because they were not though yet born, and had nothing done good or bad, in order that elect purpose of God might continue, not because works but because him calls"

So, a better and more accurate translation of this verse is "Because they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, but in order that the elect purpose of God might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls."

It doesn't mean "the elect of God" it means "the elect purpose of God." Mystery solved for this verse.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

Romans 9:23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Yes, those in Christ he ordained for glory, that in no way, shape, or form means that God has foreordained certain individuals...and ONLY certain individuals...to eternal life. This not only goes against the will of God for the creation of mankind, but it also is NOT taught in scripture. this is a false rendering of the text.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

Ephesians 1:3-6. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Yes, God foreordained that those who are "in Christ" would be blessed. He foreordained that those who are "in Christ"..."in the Beloved"...will be adopted. You are once again putting the cart before the horse. If you take the whole counsel of the Word of God, you would see that.

Blessings!

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

Ephesians 1:11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1 Thessalonians 1:4. Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

1 Thessalonians 5:9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 1:9-10. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]1 Peter 2:9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[AndOne]

how is it that you are texting while driving 70 miles an hour down a freeway? Do you think that little of the lives of others that you put them in jeopardy by your illegal driving habits?

The (j/k) at the end of his texting statement means "just kidding."

Perhaps you and your wife should spend more time with God in His presence in prayer and worship...honestly, don't get mad, take the advise.

So how do you know that the two of them don't do this? It's not bad advice - but its only worth while if they don't do it. To my knowledge Hamm has never brought this out one way or the other. If they are doing it I would consider the above quote unloving and in direct contrast to Galations 6:2.

It took me about a month until I came into His presence to the point that when I walked into a room at work, my co-workers fell into instant conviction and stopped telling their dirty jokes, etc, and I began to hear God's voice when He would speak to me.

People today think that's crazy talk, but those are those who know absolutely nothing about what the new covenant is all about. Those who are LED BY THE SPIRIT are sons of God...what does that mean? Sometimes it is just a feeling, that unction of the Spirit, but mostly it is just like in the book of Acts. The Spirit "spoke" or "said" or "told" Peter and the other Apostles to do this or to do that.

He still speaks to us today...but unless we are walking in the spirit, tuned in to hear His voice...LISTENING to hear His voice, then we won't hear it. This, again, is what walking in the spirit and obeying God in the "new and living way of the Spirit" is all about.

He who has an ear and wants to listen to truth, listen and learn.

I consider myself charismatic in the sense that I don't believe any of the gifts have ceased - but one must be carefull with statements like the one above. No unction or word from the Holy Spirit will ever supercede or over-ride scripture. Now I am not saying that you claim that your word from the Lord is overiding scripture but you are basing a lot of your arguments against eternal security (OSAS) on this. You need to keep in mind that there are a lot of "Spirit-filled" Christians who DO believe in eternal security.

I suggest you make your argument against eternal security on the authority of scripture alone and not on supernatureal revelation - because if you are wrong you could be insulting the Holy Spirit.

Scripture alone needs to be the final authority on such matters of salvation - God has revealed His will there.

 

[swordmaster]

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." Jer. 32:40 (KJV)

If God makes this promise to an unrepentant Israel, what better promises do we have?

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" -Phil. 1:6 (KJV)

Here Paul says God has begun a good work in you and will see it through until completion.

Again, you guys keep taking this verse out of context, it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation or even eternal life, it has to do with the Philippians helping Paul in his missionary journey. Are you all getting these scripture twistings from the same author of false doctrines...."People to People" false ministries?

Are we to believe that once God has started something, even through our bad habits, that He would leave it undone?

"Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." -Heb. 13:5 (KJV)

True, but yet once again, you can walk away from Him, whether you choose to believe this fact or not.

Once we have true, genuine saving faith, are we to believe that God will just give up on us? That even though we might for a time be out in sin, that He would leave us, and forsake us?

You are not understanding the point. A man can come to God in full faith, exercises that faith, repents and gets baptized into the body of Christ and remain there for years. then, for certain circumstances, for whatever reason, he decides he wants to go back into the world because he wants the pleasures of sin again. He has lain down his relationship with God, and therefore, his eternal life. Does that mean he can never come back to God again? No, it does not, and if he does come back to God (just as the Prodigal did), then he will once again be accepted.

Eternal life is totally based in a relationship with God, and that relationship is like any other. You can cease from a relationship, and then you can reconcile that relationship again and re-enter it. this isn't hard to understand, folks!

Are we to believe that the world is greater than the Holy Spirit of God that resides in us after salvation?

I don't think so.

You are correct, but that doesn't mean anything to the conversation. We choose to put ourselves in Christ, in that relationship with God, and we are the only one who can choose to cease abiding in Christ. God will never leave us nor forsake us, but he will not coming following us around like a lost puppy dog if we decide we want to leave or forsake Him. That goes against His plan for humanity.

 

[swordmaster]

You must not be here to learn. You keep making the same wrong arguments, despite being corrected repeatedly.

Annoying ad for Forum Runner sent from my cool iPhone.

That's funny....care to try again?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Hammster You must not be here to learn. You keep making the same wrong arguments, despite being corrected repeatedly.

Annoying ad for Forum Runner sent from my cool iPhone.

That's funny....care to try again?

I just wish Hammster would get rid of that annoying:

"Annoying ad for Forum Runner sent from my cool iPhone."

 

[swordmaster]

Nothing in the scriptures you cited specifically say this...

Really? You are kidding, right? Don't follow the other's example, they will lead you astray. Look at what I posted again.


John 8:47
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."


Who is of God, BB? Whoever loves God submits to God, that is why they are called "of God." Are you saying that you can't see nor comprehend that? Here...we'll pray for you...

 

[swordmaster]

Does walking away from salvation mean we sinned? If so we are all in trouble. I struggle with sin often and in some cases some pretty bad sin. Am I not saved? I believe I am.

AKM...no, sinning doesn't mean we have walked away from salvation. Salvation is part of the atonement (read Leviticus, specifically chapters 16-17 for what the atonement is and does), the only difference between the atonement of the old and new covenants is that instead of the blood of bulls and goats, we have been atoned for eternity by Christ's blood. The atonement cleanses us from past sin so that we can enter into relationship with God, and once in that relationship Christ's blood continues to cleanse us as long as we remain in that relationship...

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.


We do not "lose" eternal life just by committing a sin...in order to lose eternal life, we have to walk away from God and begin living a lifestyle of out and out rebellious sinful behavior. that's what Romans 7 talks about at the end of the chapter, and this is what walking in the spirit is all about.

When we were born again, we acquired a spiritual nature...we now have two natures, and what Paul is talking about there is that our flesh will continue to sin because that is its nature, and that sin has been dealt with for those who (chapter 8) are walking in the new nature...the spirit. I John says that because of His seed that is in us (the Spirit) that we cannot sin, but we know this is not so, so what is he really saying? He is saying the same thing Paul said, that according to the spirit nature, we cannot sin...but the flesh will continue to sin.

This is why God dealt with the flesh and gave us a new nature...now what God deals with us on is our attitude. Are we walking in an attitude that we strive to love on God and walk in obedience to Him as much as possible (and then grace covers our "missing the marks" that we all slip up and commit)? or are we still walking in a lifestyle of "obedience doesn't matter, so I can sin all I want to" or even worse???

When we walk in obedience to God (which we do by loving God and loving on people, following the leading of the Spirit's voice), then He doesn't count against us the sins of the flesh (Roman's 7 again).

Again, saved isn't the issue. The issue is eternal life, and as long as we walk in obedience to God (meaning that you do your best to do what He says to do, and follow the spirit's leading and love on people), then we remain in Christ (that covenant relationship with God), and by remaining in Christ you remain in eternal life...

1 John 3:10
By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 5:11-12
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.


Remember that Jesus is God in the flesh (and if you don't believe this, don't worry, you can't be saved anyway so you can't lose it), so when it says we abide in God by obeying His commands, that also means you are abiding in Christ. Eternal life is only in Christ (in God), and the only way to have it is through faith and walking in obedience to God's leadings...when we do this, our unintentional sins are not counted against us.

Blessings!

 

[swordmaster]

sheer guess work

Actually, it isn't guess work, it is deductive reasoning...which you have claimed to understand in past posts. Do you now disavow it because it hurts your position?

so you do not pray for anyone to be saved ! almost all Christians do.

You didn't understand a word I said, did you.

but atonement doesn't automatically give you eternal life, it only makes it possible for you to enter into the Holy of Holies...the presence of God...so that you can enjoy that Divine relationship with Him and in that relationship (coined "in Christ" in the scriptures...just as "the kingdom of God" is the same thing as being "in the covenant") is eternal life.

once again sheer guess work , anyone reading this post will look upon it with suspicion , to argue eternal life is not equated with salvation will convince very few , in fact it leads to a direct blazing contradiction , that those saved remain saved , but the salvation they had can be lost because , so it is argued , they can lose eternal life thus the net result is they will not finally be saved .

Guess work? What? So you say that scripture doesn't teach a relationship with God? You are under the erroneous assumption that being "in Christ" or "in the covenant" or "in the kingdom of God" is not all synonymous with each other? You are the one in great error, not I.

Again, it isn't guess work, and it isn't a contradiction because what you teach is a false doctrine, it is not taught in scripture, and when we take the whole counsel of God's Word into account, what you teach isn't even alluded to in scripture. Salvation and eternal life are not the same thing, no matter how much you want it to mean the same.

This is what I have said from the beginning, that doctrines such as these came into being a hundred years or more ago when we didn't have available to us - to the average person/preacher - study tools to learn exactly what the scriptures do teach. then again, we have people like Benny Hinn and others who twist scripture to make it appear to say what they want it to say, and then start a whole new false doctrine. OSAS is a false doctrine that began way back when, by men who didn't understand what they claimed to confidently affirm, just as Paul told Timothy.

Like I have stated before, until folks begin to be Bereans and check the totality of God's Word against what others say, to ascertain whether they are false teachers or not, to ascertain whether or not the doctrines they are teaching are false or not, you will continue to be led astray by false doctrines.

Set aside your beliefs and re-examine the scriptures and take what God says as truth. But you can't do that as long as you hold your bias' up because that's what you want to be truth. That makes one no better than an evolutionist, for they do the very same things with the facts of nature, interpreting them only through their biased, anti-biblical rose colored glasses.

your position is untenable.

Saved - temporary eternal life (which is an oxymoron) leading to loss of eternal life - finally no salvation .

This isn't my position...this is your strawman argument put up as my position so that you can knock it back down.

My position is very tenable, and factual...which is more than one can say concerning your position.

 

[swordmaster]

Why do you rejoice with me on one hand, and then with the other, slap me?.... Trying to turn it around onto me is juvenile.

First, if you took that as a slap, then you misinterpreted what I was saying, for I intended no such thing.

Second, what do you mean by trying to turn it around onto you?

 

[cygnusx1]

Actually, it isn't guess work, it is deductive reasoning...which you have claimed to understand in past posts. Do you now disavow it because it hurts your position?







You didn't understand a word I said, did you.





Again, it isn't guess work, and it isn't a contradiction because what you teach is a false doctrine, it is not taught in scripture, and when we take the whole counsel of God's Word into account, what you teach isn't even alluded to in scripture. Salvation and eternal life are not the same thing, no matter how much you want it to mean the same.

This is what I have said from the beginning, that doctrines such as these came into being a hundred years or more ago when we didn't have available to us - to the average person/preacher - study tools to learn exactly what the scriptures do teach. then again, we have people like Benny Hinn and others who twist scripture to make it appear to say what they want it to say, and then start a whole new false doctrine. OSAS is a false doctrine that began way back when, by men who didn't understand what they claimed to confidently affirm, just as Paul told Timothy.

Like I have stated before, until folks begin to be Bereans and check the totality of God's Word against what others say, to ascertain whether they are false teachers or not, to ascertain whether or not the doctrines they are teaching are false or not, you will continue to be led astray by false doctrines.

Set aside your beliefs and re-examine the scriptures and take what God says as truth. But you can't do that as long as you hold your bias' up because that's what you want to be truth. That makes one no better than an evolutionist, for they do the very same things with the facts of nature, interpreting them only through their biased, anti-biblical rose colored glasses.





This isn't my position...this is your strawman argument put up as my position so that you can knock it back down.

My position is very tenable, and factual...which is more than one can say concerning your position.

totally untenable , the end result is a contradiction ;

are those who have "lost eternal life " still saved .... still going to heaven ?

then you got a problem with your deductions.

the truth is OSAS is your own quirky position.

 

[LST 1154]

8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the
lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane,
for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars,
perjurers, and _*whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God*_ with which I
have been entrusted.

So the question is, exactly who are the people who are as mentioned above "the
lawless and disobedient, the ungodly and sinners,the unholy and profane,
for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, and perjurers? Are these God's just children? The above passage clearly states that "the law is not laid down for the just." I am just, are you? And if I am just the law was not laid down for me.

LST

 

[swordmaster]

The (j/k) at the end of his texting statement means "just kidding."

Oh, didn't know that.

So how do you know that the two of them don't do this? It's not bad advice - but its only worth while if they don't do it. To my knowledge Hamm has never brought this out one way or the other. If they are doing it I would consider the above quote unloving and in direct contrast to Galations 6:2.

I meant no insult, what I was trying to say is that most of the "christians" I know don't even spend an hour a day with God...whether in prayer or in His Word. I assume he is average, therefore I assume he spends less than an hour a day with God...and this doesn't do it.

The best way I know how to describe what I am trying to get across is this...you know those little glow in the dark toys we used to get as kids... you would have to hold them up to a light bulb in order to "energize" them so that they would glow. We are like those toys...the more time we spend in the presence of God, the more we glow and are saturated by His Spirit. The more we are saturated by His Spirit...the healing just comes.

It isn't easy...I am just now getting back into making just barely two hours a day as often as I can...but there are distractions that I am sure I don't need to get into. When I was in the military, I spend close to 6 hours a day with God, and those days was when I learned most of what I know today, because I walked with God, in His presence, and He moved through me. I don't say that to make myself anything...because a few years later, I fell flat on my face in sin, and it took me a year or so to get back on my feet, willing to come back to God (mostly out of guilt). Ever since then, I have been striving to get back to that place with Him again...I am getting closer, but I will not be satisfied until I am there again.

I consider myself charismatic in the sense that I don't believe any of the gifts have ceased - but one must be carefull with statements like the one above. No unction or word from the Holy Spirit will ever supercede or over-ride scripture. Now I am not saying that you claim that your word from the Lord is overiding scripture but you are basing a lot of your arguments against eternal security (OSAS) on this.

I'm glad you don't think that of me, because that isn't what I was saying. however, nothing the voice of God/the Spirit/Christ has ever told me has ever contradicted or superseded scripture...and I don't think it ever would. On the other comment, I don't base my argument against OSAS on my experience, I only brought out my experiences because he was insinuating that i didn't have the spirit of God. Just as Paul, I can prove my walk with God...but how many others can that post here?

That was not a challenge to you personally.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power [in demonstration of the Spirit of God].

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Blessings!

 

[swordmaster]

totally untenable , the end result is a contradiction ;

are those who have "lost eternal life " still saved .... still going to heaven ?

Again, you seemingly have no idea what the basics of the atonement, nor of being born again, are. I would try to go over it again, but it is obvious that you will not listen to sound reasoning, so I won't bother. I suggest you read Leviticus and learn what the atonement is and what it is for, then read about the new birth again and about remaining in Christ.

And take them in context...

 

[nobdysfool]

First, if you took that as a slap, then you misinterpreted what I was saying, for I intended no such thing.

Second, what do you mean by trying to turn it around onto you?

Perhaps then it would be beneficial to spend some time praying about how you speak to other Christians, especially those with whom you disagree, and consider that correction should be done in a spirit of meekness, looking to yourself lest you be found guilty of the same, or more than those you think to correct. Consider what the word self-defense means.....

 

[AndOne]

Really? You are kidding, right? Don't follow the other's example, they will lead you astray. Look at what I posted again.


John 8:47
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."


Who is of God, BB? Whoever loves God submits to God, that is why they are called "of God." Are you saying that you can't see nor comprehend that? Here...we'll pray for you...

You said the following:
Those who put themselves under the care of Christ as their Shepherd are His flock, and they will listen to Him and hear Him because they have put themselves into His care...NOT the other way around like some have tried to make it read.

John 8:47 says NOTHING about people putting themselves under the care of Christ. This is the verse you have used to back up this claim - but again - it is not what is in scripture - its not what John 8:47 says.

 

[cygnusx1]

Again, you seemingly have no idea what the basics of the atonement, nor of being born again, are. I would try to go over it again, but it is obvious that you will not listen to sound reasoning, so I won't bother. I suggest you read Leviticus and learn what the atonement is and what it is for, then read about the new birth again and about remaining in Christ.

And take them in context...

attempting to repel me with guesses upon what I do or do not know and posturing as teacher is pointless , just answer the question ...

your position is totally untenable , the end result is a contradiction ;

are those who have "lost eternal life " still saved .... still going to heaven ?


It is you who have a doctrine of OSAS , do I need to go back over this thread and prove it ?

"Phaedron...you cannot loose your salvation, once the blood of Christ is applied to your life, it is done." swordmaster

"Well...you can't lose your salvation because it is part of the new birth, but you can cease to remain in the covenant and throw away your eternal life by doing so." swordmaster

 

[cygnusx1]

You absolutely must not, nor can you ever ever ever pray that God will perform a miracle by stepping into time and space and rescue anyone from eternal damnation. NEVER do this because we all have "free will" and if God would happen to save someone from hell He would have to "violate" their free will and that is one thing He cannot do! God NEVER violates our free will. Need scripture? Try Hezekiah 3:16.

Now lets move on to praying for that saved person to hang on until they die. Again there is that free will. We cannot pray that God will continue to hold them in His hand because again that will violate their free will and even though God has adopted them into His family, if they sin He immediately "unadopts" them, (see the above posting for this nonsense) which is balderdash according to William Barclay: "In Roman law, When the adoption was complete it was complete indeed. The person who had been adopted had all the rights of a legitimate son in his new family and completely lost all rights in his old family. In the eyes of the law he was a new person. So new was he that even all debts and obligations connected with his previous family were abolished as if they had never existed.”

The Greek word Huiothesia (Strongs G-5201 adoption) means "the nature and condition of the true disciples in Christ, who by receiving the Spirit of God into their souls become sons of God."

I am a son of my father and I will always be a son of my father. I could disown my father, I could legally change my surname to something other than what it is, I could move to another country, change my culture, learn a new language, even go through a sex change operation but I will still be a son of my father because I was born that way and NOTHING I do will ever be able to change that. When God adopted us into His family, we become His son, and nothing can ever change that.

Is God an "indian giver?" Does He adopt us into His family on Monday then decide on Tuesday that because I sinned I'm no longer His son and therefore unadopt me? Wow, that is some God some people worship. My God keeps His word and is trustworthy.

LST

Good post !!!

still looking for Hezekiah 3:16

 

[LST 1154]

Good post !!!

still looking for Hezekiah 3:16

Thanks for the thumbs up. I think you will find Hezekiah just after the Book of David and just before the Book of Saul. Those are in the MT (the Middle Testament!)

LST