Can a born-again believer lose their salvation?

[beloved57]

swm:

Actually, this is your private interpretation of scripture,

No its not. Perseverance is an evidence of being saved, not a condition..

 

[swordmaster]

Perhaps then it would be beneficial to spend some time praying about how you speak to other Christians, especially those with whom you disagree, and consider that correction should be done in a spirit of meekness, looking to yourself lest you be found guilty of the same, or more than those you think to correct. Consider what the word self-defense means.....

As I said, you misunderstood what I said, I did not attack you.

 

[swordmaster]

You said the following:
Those who put themselves under the care of Christ as their Shepherd are His flock, and they will listen to Him and hear Him because they have put themselves into His care...NOT the other way around like some have tried to make it read.

John 8:47 says NOTHING about people putting themselves under the care of Christ. This is the verse you have used to back up this claim - but again - it is not what is in scripture - its not what John 8:47 says.

BB...who is "of God?" Those who put their faith in Him and rely upon Him...what does that mean? It means that they are putting themselves into His care.

How is it that you do not see that?

 

[swordmaster]

attempting to repel me with guesses upon what I do or do not know and posturing as teacher is pointless , just answer the question ...

your position is totally untenable , the end result is a contradiction ;

are those who have "lost eternal life " still saved .... still going to heaven ?


It is you who have a doctrine of OSAS , do I need to go back over this thread and prove it ?

"Phaedron...you cannot loose your salvation, once the blood of Christ is applied to your life, it is done." swordmaster

"Well...you can't lose your salvation because it is part of the new birth, but you can cease to remain in the covenant and throw away your eternal life by doing so." swordmaster

Nice try, cygnus.....but it fails.

Before we go any further with this, when you argue once saved, always saved, what are you talking about? Are you talking about salvation, or eternal life?

 

[swordmaster]

swm:



No its not. Perseverance is an evidence of being saved, not a condition..

Actually, it is, you are misinterpreting the scripture. Just so we can be clear about WHAT scripture you are alluding to by your comment, please post it and give your interpretation...IN CONTEXT.

Then we can see if I am wrong, or if you are wrong.

 

[swordmaster]

I ran across this today so I thought I would share it so that you can see that you are still held accountable to obedience to God.


Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

So, if Jesus did get rid of all the law, or commandments to obey, then it would be impossible for us to commit a sin today, and in that case the following scriptures have absolutely no power and they shouldn't be in the Bible...


1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.


1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.


Comments?

 

[nobdysfool]

I ran across this today so I thought I would share it so that you can see that you are still held accountable to obedience to God.


Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

So, if Jesus did get rid of all the law, or commandments to obey, then it would be impossible for us to commit a sin today, and in that case the following scriptures have absolutely no power and they shouldn't be in the Bible...


1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.


1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.


Comments?

I don't think anyone here has advocated that we don't need to obey God. Calvinists are accused from time to time of anti-nomianism, but it is a false charge. If that is what you think, then you're trying to defeat a view that does not exist among those with whom you are contending.

Straw men abound in these types of discussions, and the straw men erected against Calvinists are many, and all are inaccurate. Since it seems that yet another straw man has been thrown into the fray, let me just say that I do not feel any need to defend a view that I do not hold, other than to point out that it is a straw man, and consequently, misses the mark.

Again, this is not a last-man-standing forum, and no one wins anything for defeating someone else. There will be times where we will simply have to agree to disagree. Can you do that?

 

[nobdysfool]

As I said, you misunderstood what I said, I did not attack you.

Attempting to make it look as though I was nit-picking comes under the heading of attack. I pointed out something that you technically agree with, yet you took me to task for it, as though I were somehow deficient in understanding.

Your opening words were fine, "I rejoice with you". If you had left it at that, we would not be having this conversation. There was no need to correct me. And there was no need to engage in self-defense, because I did not attack you. I was merely trying to clarify, for the benefit of the readers who have never seen a miracle.

Again, please consider how you speak to other Christians. No one appreciates being talked down to. I did not talk down to you. I stand by what I said, and as I said, technically you agree with it. Let's leave it there.

And, for the benefit of readers, if someone tells you that God does not work miracles today, and heal people today, quite frankly, and with all due respect, they don't know what they're talking about. Swordmaster and I agree on that point.

 

[cygnusx1]

Nice try, cygnus.....but it fails.

Before we go any further with this, when you argue once saved, always saved, what are you talking about? Are you talking about salvation, or eternal life?

it doesn't fail at all ;

you have said over and over that OSAS is false , then you write those saved cannot lose their salvation !

then you wish to say eternal life may be forfeit but the person is still "saved" because they cannot lose salvation .... so YOU believe in OSAS irrespective of the fact you also believe some saved have lost eternal life .

some strange teaching . held by how many theologians 1 ? 2? 0 ?

It would have been better for you and your argument to deny salvation is eternal/unchanging or accept it is permanent.

 

[confident]

swm:



No its not. Perseverance is an evidence of being saved, not a condition..

Evidence which demands a verdict ... and the verdict is entrance
into Heaven.


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life
John 5:24


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:47


And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:28


Evidence that one is unsaved is the unwillingness to believe the above scriptural words of the Savior.


But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you
John 10:26


My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:27

 

[beloved57]

Evidence which demands a verdict ... and the verdict is entrance
into Heaven.


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life
John 5:24


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:47


And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:28


Evidence that one is unsaved is the unwillingness to believe the above scriptural words of the Savior.


But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you
John 10:26


My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:27

Yes, the Sheep never were under legal condemnation for their sins, simply because Christ was their legal surety for their sins, The sheeps condemnation for their sins was imputed to Christ, so He must die in their stead, for their sins, and thy are Justified, and so they can believe..and they are ensured eternal life and cannot perish !

 

[janwoG]

To confident
If one actually can lose one's salvation, what makes such a great salvation any different from salvation via works in Judaism, Islam or Catholicism?

I think you have free will to walk out of salvation. But if you persevere in faith, that is only due to Jesus inside you. However, I have a question to the forum: If you have lack of courage you may commit apostasy if a persecutor threatens to kill you. Is every born again ready to become a martyre in that extreme situation? Is everybody sure how he will behave?
Personally, I experienced that God lifted obstacles in my life; I thought I could not overcome.

 

[cygnusx1]

To confident
If one actually can lose one's salvation, what makes such a great salvation any different from salvation via works in Judaism, Islam or Catholicism?

I think you have free will to walk out of salvation. But if you persevere in faith, that is only due to Jesus inside you. However, I have a question to the forum: If you have lack of courage you may commit apostasy if a persecutor threatens to kill you. Is every born again ready to become a martyre in that extreme situation? Is everybody sure how he will behave?
Personally, I experienced that God lifted obstacles in my life; I thought I could not overcome.

salvation does NOT depend upon the strength and courage of a Christian but upon God's unchanging covenant .... remember all Christs disciples fled in fright , Peter even denied the Lord (3 times) there you have all the evidence you need to show salvation is "of the Lord" , how many Protestants through fear denied their love of the Lord ? Christ is not so miserly as to detest and reject those who suffer and flee for fear of their lives .


Between the end of January and mid February 1556, Cranmer made four recantations, submitting himself to the authority of the monarch and recognising the Pope as the head of the church. On the 14th February his priesthood was taken from him and his execution was set for the 7th March because Edmund Bonner was not happy with Cranmer’s admissions. Cranmer then made a fifth recantation, fully accepting Catholic theology, repudiating Reformist theology, stating that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church and announcing that he was happy to return to the Catholic fold. He participated in the mass and asked for sacramental absolution, which he received.


Cranmer’s recantation and his return to the Catholic Church should have resulted in him being absolved, but although his execution was postponed, Mary I then announced that it would be going ahead. On the 18th March he made his final recantation but his execution date was set for the 21st. On the date of his execution he was given the opportunity to publicly recant at the University Church, Oxford. Instead of recanting, Cranmer opened with the expected prayer and exhortation to obey the King and Queen, and then renounced his recantations, saying that the hand he had used to sign them would be the hand that would be punished by the fire first. Cranmer went on to say:-

“And as for the pope, I refuse him, as Christ’s enemy, and Antichrist with all his false doctrine.”
​

He didn’t have the chance to say anymore as he was quickly taken away to suffer his sentence. He was taken to the stake and it is said that he placed his right hand into the flames as they licked around him and as he died he said:-

“Lord Jesus, receive my spirit… I see the heavens open and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.”
​

Read more: http://www.theanneboleynfiles.com/the-execution-of-thomas-cranmer/4917/#ixzz1HMhCuYI3
​

 

[AndOne]

To confident
However, I have a question to the forum: If you have lack of courage you may commit apostasy if a persecutor threatens to kill you. Is every born again ready to become a martyre in that extreme situation? Is everybody sure how he will behave?

This is an excellent question - and I think it really gets to the heart of the matter. Bottom line for me - and I believe it is what the Lord meant when he said "if you deny me before men I will deny you before my father" - if you are not willing to die for the faith you are not truly saved. In this instance its not a matter of loosing it - its never having it to begin with. Its the ultimate test of faith - that many of our brothers and sisters have passed to the glory of God down through history.

Death should not be a worry of the Christian. If it is - then its a serious problem.

Its something we should all ponder in seriousness. I pray the day never comes in America - but anything is possible and we should consider what our response would be in the face of persecution that threatens death. We have many true brothers and sisters dealing with this very thing TODAY in other parts of the world. They aren't sitting around debating on weather or not they can loose their salvation - they are wondering - "Is today the day I'm going to die?"

 

[AndOne]

salvation does NOT depend upon the strength and courage of a Christian but upon God's unchanging covenant .... remember all Christs disciples fled in fright , Peter even denied the Lord (3 times) there you have all the evidence you need to show salvation is "of the Lord" , how many Protestants through fear denied their love of the Lord ? Christ is not so miserly as to detest and reject those who suffer and flee for fear of their lives .

I know where you are coming from with this, brother - but don't forget they all died for the gospel - save John who was exiled...

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

These are some very wise words from the great Theologian John Owen!


First,​

​

​

​

To exempt themselves from God's jurisdiction, to​

free​

​

​

​

themselves from the supreme dominion of his all-ruling​

providence​

​

​

​

; not to live and move in him, but to have an​

absolute​

​

​

​

independent power, in all their actions, so that the
event of all things, wherein they have any interest, might
have a considerable relation to nothing but chance, contingency,​

and​

​

​

​

their own wills : a most nefarious, sacrilegious​

attempt.​

​

​

​

To this end.​

First,​

​

​

​

They deny the eternity, and unchangeableness of​

God's​

​

​

​

decrees : for those being established, they fear they
should be kept within bounds from doing any thing but what​

his​

​

​

​

counsel hath determined should be done : if the purposes
of the strength of Israel be eternal and immutable, their idol
free-will must be limited, their independency prejudiced​

:​

wherefore,​

​

​

​

they choose rather to affirm that his decrees are​

temporary​

​

​

​

and changeable ; yea, that he doth really change​

them, according​

​

​

​

to the several mutations he sees in us ; which,​

how​

​

​

​

wild a conceit it is, how contrary to the pure nature of​

God,​

​

​

​

how destructive to his attributes, I shall shew in the​

second chapter.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Alittle More From John Owen

"Fourthly, ​

​

​

​

They deny the irresistibility and uncontrollable​

power of God's will, affirming, that oftentimes he seriously
willeth and intendeth what he cannot accomplish, and so is​

deceived of his aim ; nay, whereas he desireth, and really intendeth,​

to save every man, it is wholly in their own power​

whether he shall save any one or no, otherwise their idol freewill​

should have but a poor deity, if God could, how and​

when he would, cross and resist him in his dominion : concerning​

this, see chapter the fifth. 'His gradibus itur in coelum.'​

Corrupted nature is still ready, either nefariously with Adam,​

to attempt to be like God, or to think foolishly that he is altogether​

like unto us :* one of which inconveniences all men​

run into, who have not learned to submit their frail wills to​

the almighty will of God, and captivate their understandings​

to the obedience ot faith."

 

[LST 1154]

salvation does NOT depend upon the strength and courage of a Christian but upon God's unchanging covenant .... remember all Christs disciples fled in fright , Peter even denied the Lord (3 times) there you have all the evidence you need to show salvation is "of the Lord" , how many Protestants through fear denied their love of the Lord ? Christ is not so miserly as to detest and reject those who suffer and flee for fear of their lives .


Between the end of January and mid February 1556, Cranmer made four recantations, submitting himself to the authority of the monarch and recognising the Pope as the head of the church. On the 14th February his priesthood was taken from him and his execution was set for the 7th March because Edmund Bonner was not happy with Cranmer’s admissions. Cranmer then made a fifth recantation, fully accepting Catholic theology, repudiating Reformist theology, stating that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church and announcing that he was happy to return to the Catholic fold. He participated in the mass and asked for sacramental absolution, which he received.


Cranmer’s recantation and his return to the Catholic Church should have resulted in him being absolved, but although his execution was postponed, Mary I then announced that it would be going ahead. On the 18th March he made his final recantation but his execution date was set for the 21st. On the date of his execution he was given the opportunity to publicly recant at the University Church, Oxford. Instead of recanting, Cranmer opened with the expected prayer and exhortation to obey the King and Queen, and then renounced his recantations, saying that the hand he had used to sign them would be the hand that would be punished by the fire first. Cranmer went on to say:-

“And as for the pope, I refuse him, as Christ’s enemy, and Antichrist with all his false doctrine.”
​

He didn’t have the chance to say anymore as he was quickly taken away to suffer his sentence. He was taken to the stake and it is said that he placed his right hand into the flames as they licked around him and as he died he said:-

“Lord Jesus, receive my spirit… I see the heavens open and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.”
​

Read more: The Anne Boleyn Files » The Execution of Thomas Cranmer​

None of the Protestant martyrs murdered by the RCC cried out in pain even though they were burned at the stake.

LST

 

[Jpark]

Evidence which demands a verdict ... and the verdict is entrance
into Heaven.


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life
John 5:24


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:47


And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:28


Evidence that one is unsaved is the unwillingness to believe the above scriptural words of the Savior.


But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you
John 10:26


My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:27

John 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

What does John 11:26 mean by lives? Does it mean lives or 'lives in Me'?

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The branch must always be connected to the vine.

If the branch believes in the vine and does good works as a result of it's salvation but neglects it's relationship with the vine, will it be saved?

 

[confident]

John 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

What does John 11:26 mean by lives? Does it mean lives or 'lives in Me'?

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The branch must always be connected to the vine.

If the branch believes in the vine and does good works as a result of it's salvation but neglects it's relationship with the vine, will it be saved?

----------------------------------------------------------------


John 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" This reveals the eternal security of the believer who believes in Christ. Christ is IN the born again believer and keeps the believer. Yes, never die and never perish.

Now to him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy
Jude 1:25



What does John 11:26 mean by lives? Does it mean lives or 'lives in Me'?
This also demonstrates the eternal security of the believer since those who live in Christ, live in Him only because He lives IN them .... hence, they are
born again, not by the will of man but by the will of God.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12,13



John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

So true as this also proves the eternal security of the believer who abides in Christ because Christ is IN Him.

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Colossians 1:27

The branch must always be connected to the vine.

So true, and the branch is connected to the vine because it is borne by
the root, which is Christ IN the believer. Christ will not lose any of His
branches, which are His sheep. This bothers an unsaved person, or a
pseudo-christian with only fear and head-knowledge but no relationship with
the Savior. The born again believer BELIEVES the promises of the Savior ... the unsaved counterfeit does not and therefore does not really follow Him:

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:26-29


If the branch believes in the vine and does good works as a result of it's salvation but neglects it's relationship with the vine, will it be saved?[/QUOTE]

This also illustrates the eternal security of the believer very beautifully.
The branch believes and does good works via the power of the indwelling,
sealing Holy Spirit and cannot 'neglect' it's relationship which is always
existent ... and when we quote scripture, we should quote the WHOLE
CONTEXT of the passage, especially when speaking of branches and vines ...


I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:5

Without Christ, one can do nothing and without Christ, one is just not saved at all. If one is not saved once and for all, one is not saved at all. Salvation
is by faith through grace plus nothing ... all the works are done by Christ IN the believer just as the Father did the works IN Christ.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:10


Therefore, for all those born again eternally secure believers:

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be to you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I you.
John 20:1


Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Amen
Matthew 28:20


We who are truly born again, are saved forever because Christ is IN us, as
the Father was IN Him. Praise the Lord ... forever.