CAN A BELIEVER BE ACCURSED ?

[Mark Quayle]

Gal 1:9 reads As we have said before , I say also just now again , Since someone is preaching the GOSPEL to you CONTRARY to what you received . let him be ACCURSED .

#1 From Gal 1:9 that someone is preaching to anyone that is contrary to what Paul preached is accursed ?

#2 Can this be a believer ?

#3 There were some that did not PREACH what Paul , PLANTED ?

#4 What was Paul's message that he PLANTED ?

#5 I have seen some on other sites where Paul , preached the same message as Peter , is that true ?

#6 What does ACCURSED than mean ??

what say you ??

dan p

Define, "Believer".

 

[Mark Quayle]

If there is ONLY one gospel , how was Adam and Eve then saved ?

Was than Adam and Eve than lost , because that could not heard of the ONE GOSPEL , so please help me out here ??

dan p

By faith in the Promise (Ge 3:15, seed; i.e., Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16),
the same way everyone is saved by faith in Jesus Christ (the Promise).

The one gospel is salvation by grace through faith, not by works (Eph 2:8-9), that faith being in Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25).

Agreed, Clare. In fact, the Gospel goes all the way back to God's sovereignty and ownership of all fact. Genesis 1:1

 

[oikonomia]

You mean that God preached Rom 3:25 to Adam and Eve ?

And I thought it was Gen 6:6 that Christ , preached to Adam and Eve , what say you ?

dan p

Yes, I would say something of the (proto) gospel was preached to Adam.
Why not if the gospel was preached Abraham according to Galatians 3:8?

"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Gal. 3:8)

In the same way the gospel in a proto form was announced to Adam and Eve. This is why he had hope in the eventual crushing of the serpent. This may also be why he called his wife - "Living" or the signifying she was the mother of all living. There is hope in that because they had expected only DEATH after their disobeduence. They got hope from SOME good news somewhere then.

 

[oikonomia]

You mean that God preached Rom 3:25 to Adam and Eve ?

And I thought it was Gen 6:6 that Christ , preached to Adam and Eve , what say you ?

dan p

Dan, do you think the Bible can be systematized 100% all the time?

I do not believe we can subject the Bible to 100% systemization.
I mean like an IBM computer flowchart - total 100% systemization.

I think there is order, consistency, plan, and design.
But I think there is paradox also.
And I think encreased obedience and spiritual growth causes deeper understanding of its design.

I think people who find it easy to object and point out inconsistancies with others' statments of faith
may be over eager to demonstrate that they have an iron clad, fool proof, air tight, 100% systemization going on in the Bible.

As I read even the epistles of Paul, who wrote some 13 of the NT's 27 books, I do not get the impression that there were absolutely NO questions that he himself still had. And he definitely had revelation from God.

 

[Dan Perez]

Dan, do you think the Bible can be systematized 100% all the time?

I do not believe we can subject the Bible to 100% systemization.
I mean like an IBM computer flowchart - total 100% systemization.

I think there is order, consistency, plan, and design.
But I think there is paradox also.
And I think encreased obedience and spiritual growth causes deeper understanding of its design.

I think people who find it easy to object and point out inconsistancies with others' statments of faith
may be over eager to demonstrate that they have an iron clad, fool proof, air tight, 100% systemization going on in the Bible.

As I read even the epistles of Paul, who wrote some 13 of the NT's 27 books, I do not get the impression that there were absolutely NO questions that he himself still had. And he definitely had revelation from God.

Just looking at Rom 10:13 , Paul is quoting parts of Joel 2:32 and the rest of Joel 2:32 does not fit into Paul's gospel and th same in verse 15 !

dan p

 

[oikonomia]

Just looking at Rom 10:13 , Paul is quoting parts of Joel 2:32 and the rest of Joel 2:32 does not fit into Paul's gospel and th same in verse 15 !

dan p

I see no problem with the Holy Spirit inspiring His apostle to apply Joel 32:2 to calling on the Lord Jesus.
He is Jeohvah now incarnated.

I said Paul preached "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel."

"To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles
the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel . . ." (Eph. 3:8)

Christ's gospel is not two or three things. It is unsearchably rich and fathomlessly deep "all things" of the Triune God.
That includes His faithfulness to Israel, His faithfulness to the whole of creation and the world, with the Gentile nations.

He is God. And all that God has planned and willed, including anything mentioned in Joel 32 or 15 is in view of God applying
His riches in the furtherance of His whole economy (oikonomia). Of that economy Christ is the center and circumferance.
"Because out from Him and through Him and to Him are all things." (Rom. 11:36)

I would not be the least bothered that Joel there goes on to speak of other matters accomplished by God.
For these are all a part of the unsearchable riches of Christ as the head over all things in God's economy.

Everything and all things the Triune God does is with a view of estblishing Christ as the meaning of all creation and God's interacting
in time His will.

Sing along with me Romans 11:34-36!

 

[Dan Perez]

Just looking at Rom 10:13 , Paul is quoting parts of Joel 2:32 and the rest of Joel 2:32 does not fit into Paul's gospel and th same in verse 15 !

dan p

Noah Ark is also mentioned in 1 Peter 3:20 , just as SIN is ,mentioned from Genesis -- Revelation >

dan p

 

[oikonomia]

Noah Ark is also mentioned in 1 Peter 3:20 , just as SIN is ,mentioned from Genesis -- Revelation >

dan p

Yes, so much is mentioned of the OT in ther NT. The OT is like the picture and the NT is the caption underneath the picture.

All the things there in the OT were written for our admonision in the new covenant age.

I like the analogy of a pyramid arising from underneath the water.
The higher it is raised from below the larger it gets. But the essential shape remains the same.

So God's plan is profound. And in stages He had to unveil it to man.
One day we may discuss how the first two chapters of Genesis and the last two chapters of Revelation
are so much the same, like two bookends on a longbookshelf.

The two opening chapters and the two closing chapters of the Bible reveal the revelation's whole consistency.
It goes along with Christ being the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

By the way, the other things the first two chapters have with the last two chapters is the absence of sin, death, and a curse.

 

[Ceallaigh]

If there is ONLY one gospel , how was Adam and Eve then saved ?

Was than Adam and Eve than lost , because that could not heard of the ONE GOSPEL , so please help me out here ??

dan p

It's believed that Jesus went to Sheol and gave the gospel to Adam and Eve between the time he was crucified and when he resurrected.

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Matthew 12:40

“God hath raised up Christ, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it." Acts 2:24

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." 1 Peter 3:18-20

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:7-10

 

[oikonomia]

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Matthew 12:40

Amen to His death and resurrection - three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

“God hath raised up Christ, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it." Acts 2:24

Here's a wonderful hymn on the resurrection life of Christ. (lyrics - Witness Lee)

Death cannot hold the resurrection life,
The life of God eternal manifest;
'Tis uncreated, indestructible,
'Tis Christ Himself uncon'qurable expressed.

Death cannot hold the resurrection life,
Though all its force against it may combine;
Death only gives it opportunity
To show the boundless pow'r of life divine.

Death cannot hold the resurrection life,
The more interred, the more it multiplies;
All kinds of suffering only help it grow
And fruits of life abundant realize.

Death cannot hold the resurrection life,
Thru every block and barrier it breaks;
Con'guring the power of darkness and of hell,
It swallows death and victory partakes.

Death cannot hold the resurrection life,
All of God's fullness it will manifest;
God's righteous and holiness it yields,
His glorious image by it is expressed.

Oh, may I know this resurrection life,
In every kind of death its pow'r outpoured,
In my experience ever realize
This life is nought but Christ my living Lord.


Here's how the tune sounds (composed by C.T. McCorkell)

Hymn: Death cannot hold the resurrection life

Christian hymns and spiritual songs with wonderful truths and music.

www.hymnal.net

 

[Clare73]

It's believed that Jesus went to Sheol and gave the gospel to Adam and Eve between the time he was crucified and when he resurrected.

Does that sound like the meaning of 1 Pe 3:18-20 to you?

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Matthew 12:40

“God hath raised up Christ, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it." Acts 2:24

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." 1 Peter 3:18-20

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:7-10

 

[Ceallaigh]

Does that sound like the meaning of 1 Pe 3:18-20 to you?

Maybe. But of course the belief that Jesus went down to Sheol to liberate Adam and Eve and many others has been around a lot longer than I have.

 

[Clare73]

Maybe. But of course the belief that Jesus went down to Sheol to liberate Adam and Eve and many others has been around a lot longer than I have.

I've never heard of it. . .

 

[Ceallaigh]

I've never heard of it. . .

The Harrowing of Hell

 

[oikonomia]

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." 1 Peter 3:18-20

The spirits who were in prisons were the evil angel who were involved in the disrupting of God's plan and order by having left their principality to become husbands of human women. This is in the days of Noah. These are those responsible for the Nephilim (or "fallen ones") who were gaints and men of which ancient mythological tales were made.

"And when men began to multiply on the surface of the ground daughters were born to them." (Gen. 6:1)

Notice how Moses refers to "the surface of the ground" which should be obvious.
It could be that he is about to make a contrast between the earth's surface and evil angels who were from higher realms. Though the evil angels had their place in the air they violated that under Satan's plans to ruin mankind for God's purpose and come to the earth's surface to infest humanity.

"The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took wives for themselves from all whom they chose." (v.2)

This is the evil dispbedient activity of the spirits in prison. Crimes they committed in the days of Noah.
It is not that the gospel was preached to them in the lowests parts of the abyss so that they might be saved.
Rather Christ ANNOUNCED and PROCLAIMED the gospel over them as a victorious vindication of God's eternal purpose. That purpose which they, the disobedient spirutual followers of Satan, tried to destroy.

"And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever . . . The Nephilim were on the earth in those days [the days around Noah's life] - and also afterward - when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these are the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown." (v.3,4)

These "men of renown" are the bases for mythologies of demigods like Mercury, Zeus, Hercules, Achilles etc. In ther words these ancient mythologies had SOME basis in things which happened -involving superhuman fallen ones - Nephelim - the result of angels leaving their proper position and bearing children with humans.

It is understandably objected that this is impossible. But do we know that? I would have said it was impossible for the magicians of Egypt to imitate God's miracle of turning a stick into a serpent by their deep occultic arts. We cannot under estimate what Satan and his hosts might be capable of doing.

Probably this entermingling took place at the invitation of demon worshipping humans. For right after the indication that sons of God [angels of the evil sort] intermarried with human daughters it immediately mentions the striving of God with the conciences of men.

"And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever . . . " and the flood to wipe out the polluted world insued. I find this more plausible if not without problems, to the disobedient spirits referring to Adam and Eve.

And in the three days Christ included touring that part of the realm of the deep underworld to proclaim His victory over their schemes in Noah's days.

"For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous [humans] that He might bring you to God, [the fallen angels are doomed to the eternal punishment "prepared for the devil and his angels" ] (Matt. 25:41)

Christ went not into the realm weak but empowered by the Spirit which was already working in Him to totally overome death. And in that power of the Spirit working already in His spirit to ascend from death and into the heavens, He "proclaimed" His victory of these particularly hieneous evil spirits.

" . . . being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit; In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was beng prepared . . . " (1 Pet. 3:20)

 

[oikonomia]

(Now this, He ascended what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the same who also ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.)

And He gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints unto the wor of minitry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ; Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of th eful knowledge of the Son of God, at a full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." (Eph. 4:9-13)

The gifts are people. Christ died and arose filling all things. Christ fills the universe. Going to the lowest parts and ascending to the highest part He leads captive those saved by Him to make them all "gifts". The gifts are for the accompishing of His purpose to have a Body for Himself, recovering and extending the purpose for which God made man - to express God and reign over God's creation on behalf of God.

This is the scheme Satan tried to disrupt by ruining man in the days of Noah. Christ has conquered his scheme.
Christ is moving through history as the ARK was moving with the Israelites to conquer the Promised Land.
And Paul alludes to this moving of the ark in Joshua's victory over the enemies of God in Canaan.

This precedes the verses above:

"But to each one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore He says, Having ascended to the height, He led captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men." (vs. 7,8)

Compare with what Paul alludes to in Psalm 68:18 and Numbers 10:35.

"You have ascended on high; You have led captive those taken captive, You have received gifts among men, Even the rebellious ones also, that Jehovah may dwell among them." (Psalm 68:18)

The people who Christ saved are gifts given to Him by the Father. All that He has the Father gave Him.
Christ then turns these around to be GIFTS to men. They become worked on by Christ and constituted His gifts to
men for the building up of His Body. They themselves are captives of Christ. NoAnd when w God dwells among them. They were led by Christ to God the Father who incidently had GIVEN them to Christ. He in turn gives THEM as gifts to men for the building up of His Body according to His eternal purpose.

Christ is the reality of that ARK of which it was said in Numbers 10:35 - "And when the Ark set out, Moses said, Rise up, O Jehovah, and let Your enemies be scattered; And let those who hate You flee before You."

The "height" in the quotation of Psalm 68:18 refers to Mount Zion (Psalm 68:15-16). Mount Zion is Paul uses to symbolize the third heaven where God dwells (First Kings 8:30). Psalm 68 implies that it was in the ARK that God ascendedto Mount Zion after the ark had won the victory. Verse 1 of Psalm 68 is a quotation from Numbers 10:35. It indicates tat the background of Psalm 68 is God's move in the tabernacle with the ark as its center. Wherever the ark went victory was won.

Christ is the reality of that ark of the covenant. The ark was a type of Christ. And its move was a tyoe of Christ moving in history to accomplish God's victory over all His enemies and the building up of His Body. Wherever the ark wnetm the voctory followed its triumphal march. Eventually the ark ascended trumphantly to the top of Mount Zion, This portraus how Christ haswon the voctoy and ascened truumphantly to the heavens.

"Those" in Ephesians 4:8 refer to the redeemed saints who were taken cative by Satan before they were saved by CHrist's death and resurrection. IN the ascension Christ led them captive that is, He rescused them from Satan's captivity and took them to Himself. He has conquired and overcome Satan, who captured them bu sin and death.

And He dwells among them constituting them as being gifts to men for the biuldng up of the Body of Christ.
They are the "some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers for the perfecting of the saints unto the work of ministry, . . . "

Unlike the popular misunderstanding, these gifts do not do ALL the building of the Body themselves. They rather equip the SAINTS to do the work of ministry. We ALL are to be ministers of Christ, minsters of life, for the building up of the Body of Christ. This verse is not about the man-made clergy / laity system of all the building and all the ministry being done by these people. It is not credence for a clerical class of those acting as mediators between "common" people and God. They are those taking the lead to perfect the saints unto the ministry. Rather they take to lead to EQUIP the saints to do the work of ministry - EACH ONE. For the Body build up itself in love. (v.16)

 

[Dan Perez]

You mean that God preached Rom 3:25 to Adam and Eve ?

And I thought it was Gen 6:6 that Christ , preached to Adam and Eve , what say you ?

dan p

When reviewing , What I wrote ,about how Adam and Eve were saved I gave the wrong verse and should have been Gen 3:21 as to how Adam and Eve were saved .

And it reads , Unto Adam ALSO / ASA and to his wife , is the stem QAL , and in the Heb IMPERFECT TENSE .

DID / ASA is that that stem QAL and also in the IMPERFECT TENSE .

The Lord God , I believe it was Christ , MAKE / ASA , stem is QAL , also in the HEB IMPERFECT TENSE .

God CLOTHED / LABAS / STEM is HIPHIL and also in the Heb IMPERFECT TENSE .

This is where ATONEMENT began .

dan p